[LATOYA SMITH] The Grow A Group Practice Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice Network, a network of podcast seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like the Practice of the Practice podcast, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. You are listening to the Grow A Group Practice podcast, a podcast focused on helping people start, grow, and scale a group practice. Each week you’ll hear topics that are relevant to group practice owners. I’m LaToya Smith, a practice owner, and I love hearing about people’s stories and real-life experiences. So let’s get started. Welcome back to the Grow A Group practice podcast. I am LaToya Smith, your host for season two. Today’s guest I have Courtney Guhl Huckabay. Again, this is somebody that I connected with. She is local here in the Fort Worth area, and as we were chatting I learned that like literally her office is across the street from mine. I know sometimes we say that, oh, they’re just down the street or up the street or across the street now, but literally across the street. Courtney, thank you so much for joining me for the podcast. [COURTNEY GUHL HUCKABAY] Thank you so much for asking me to come and talk. I love talking about mental health and any way we can get connection with mental practitioners, I love that. [LATOYA] I just thought about this would’ve been like amazing to have a live on-location interview since we’re so next, right next to each other, but this is cool too. I know you’re across the street. [COURTNEY] We’ll visit each other later [LATOYA] Yes, so just as we get started, tell our listeners who you are, name of your practice. [COURTNEY] Yes. I’m Courtney Guhl Huckabay. I’m a licensed professional counselor, supervisor, registered play therapist, supervisor and national certified counselor and I’m the founder and owner of Terra Therapies here in Fort Worth, Texas. [LATOYA] I love that. I love the name too. How’d you come up with that name or what led you to it? [COURTNEY] It’s a great story. So I actually grew up on the Trinity Trails. My dad would always take me and my sister out on the trails. So when I became an adult I had a dog and we were outside and she was running up and down the water and I was like, what fun. She’s having play therapy, because I’m a play therapist. I was like, no, it’s outdoor therapy, it’s Terra Therapies. So I was like, that’s really great. If I were to have like an official name for my practice besides just practicing under Courtney Guhl before I’m going to name it Terra Therapies because I really believe in the earth and mindfulness and getting just grounded with nature. So we’re very lucky to be here on the Trinity Trails in Fort Worth, Texas and able to utilize that nature right outside our door. [LATOYA] I love that. Yes, you definitely got plan. So even, I know we were talking before we we hit record and just the organic growth, the natural growth of your practice, one thing I love, not that, I know I’m going to sound like an outdoorsy person because I’m not, but I love it, like is the ecotherapy. So that has also helped to grow your practice. I think that’s a beautiful niche to have, but for those listening that don’t have an idea what Ecotherapy is, tell us what that is. [COURTNEY] Ecotherapy is I would say somewhat new age, but I actually learned about it at a training conference many years ago. A lot of people up in the northwest, some people in the Northeast really utilize just getting out in nature. Instead of being in an office where you’re sitting face-to-face talking, you’re actually utilizing nature and just the natural ambiance and environment of the calming the natural to do some mindfulness to practice different strategies and just being aware and self-aware and aware of our surroundings, but also just, it’s nice to be in a natural setting and not in such a stifling office setting for some to have a space to talk. So it feels a little more natural and organic. [LATOYA] So what is that, I got you, and I love the idea of just period, being in the community, stepping out of the four walls of the therapist’s office. I like that period for the, like we don’t have to just be in the office going to the community. But now when you’re in the community in this lane that you have, you are very much intentional about being out in free space. So this is more than sitting on a park bench chatting. Tell us a little bit about can it, or it can be sitting on a park bench and chatting? [COURTNEY] It can be. We do ecotherapy, we call it walk and talk therapy. We also have some groups for adolescents, children and young adults just with some curriculum and structure behind what we’re doing in the groups. But we have obviously confidentiality that we discuss out there. We try our best to go where it’s not as traveled and on the gravel parts or finding in the trees and stuff, which we have over here, like a little park area. But it really is just about this natural place of walking and moving your body, being out in the fresh air, listening to the sounds around you, seeing the things and being in a place that it doesn’t feel so intimidating for some or for those who are a little anxious to just sit still. It’s really great to be able to move our bodies and have permission to do that while we’re working through things. [LATOYA] I got a bunch of questions. This is good. First things, things first is, again, they didn’t, I think every therapist says this, in school you’re in school to learn about the profession not the business side. But we hear a lot about okay, confidentiality and consent and gets things signed and you see your client in public, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but this is different. This is like, okay, I’m taking my client in public. So how do you introduce that to clients but still have confidentiality? What documentation, what’s on the documentation to make sure that it’s okay? Talk a little bit about that in case somebody wants to know [COURTNEY] Yes. So we only do walk and talk or ecotherapy if the client wants to do that. We don’t say, hey, we’re going to do this today. We’re like, “Hey, is this something you’re interested?” Or sometimes they’ll ask us, “Can we just go out of the trail? It looks so nice outside.” I’m like, sure. So our consent is if they’re a minor, the parent understanding that we are walking out of the office if it’s an adult understanding we’re going to be in public, but we are very mindful of if somebody approaches you do not have to introduce me and who I am. We can just be walking together. if someone comes up to me, I’m not going to introduce you I’m going to do my best to say, yes, I’ll see you later and keep walking. We do our best to avoid other people as much as we can. Where we’re located is we can go one direction and go towards West Bend where you’re at over there, and then we can go the other direction where we could go to more of like towards Hulan, which is more natural. There’s like a few different routes that we can go, but we also have on our consent that if there is an injury or accident that you’re responsible for your own safety. We do have our therapist take their cell phone still on silent, but if there is a medical emergency that they can call someone at the office and notify us. If there is a concern of any kind they can call us but that’s still keep phone away unless I made it. Then we ask that oh, some people come with their dogs and they just want to walk their dog and get a little exercise and two birds with one stone. I’ve had that a few times. We do have those bases covered in our confidentiality consent. [LATOYA] Yes, I’m glad you said that, so just the little things, a little bit extremely important things, making sure the therapist takes their cell phone out in case of emergency, making sure it’s charged right, take it out. But then also like you said, just the understanding, I mean, hoping nothing happens, but if something does happen, the client understands that, hey, you signed the consent, the practice isn’t liable. We don’t want anything to happen to you, but hey, you gave permission for yourself or your child to go on this walk. So is this something that you get everybody you put it in the consent forms for intakes or when do you introduce this as an option to clients? [COURTNEY] We do not put it in everyone’s, because I personally as my own therapy practice, I don’t take children younger than 12 on the trails just because there’s a little bit more of a maturity thing there. I don’t want to be chasing after a four year old who’s going down the hill in the river and I have to jump in the river. So 12 enough is what I really focus on. If coming up and learning about the client, they like to be outdoors or there’s maybe some things that they’re unsure of outdoors that might be a little bit of that exposure therapy here, we’re doing it together. I’ve had some clients who fear bees or wasps or spiders and things like that. So that’s a little way to be out in nature but not too far in nature then have a safe retreat if we need to. But a lot of times the clients, the therapist will mention, “Hey I heard you say that you really like to walk. Would you like to do that with our time together? Would that be something you’re comfortable with?” Or if I have a kid who just doesn’t like being in the office and it’s uncomfortable, well maybe we can go out and walk or we’ll throw stones into the river or we’ll go sit on a park bench or we have yoga mats that we take out for our groups and we’ll just find a spot that’s quiet and away from the trails and we’ll just sit and talk together for a little while. [LATOYA] Yes, I like that. I’m glad that you stressed that for you it’s important to have a certain age, so yes, that’s a great reminder because you’re right. [COURTNEY] No, other therapists will be brave and take younger children out, but I tell them it’s individual basis. If there is a concern we direct that to maybe more in office or practicing. [LATOYA] That’s a good point too, like just the idea that, okay, even when I do ecotherapy, just for any therapist thinking about it, you still want to be within your comfort level, within your range of expertise so to speak. So if I’m most comfortable with adults, then I’ll go out with just adults. and then people that love working with little people then you go out to a certain section with little people. So you can still make it your own even sticking with everything you mentioned. [COURTNEY] Yes. Every therapist has their own competency levels, they have their own experience levels, they have their own way of doing therapy. We really let our therapists be their own person. I tell all my therapists, don’t be a cookie cutter of me, please but they get to decide do they want to do walk and talks. There’s some therapists who say I just don’t want to get out there and walk around and come back and have another client. Some of them like, I want to be out there all day long. And we do have some groups that are for young people. When we have the groups that are for younger children, we do have more than one therapist that goes out with them. That way if there’s like an emergency restroom break, they can bring them back to the office and go back out. Or if there is something that comes up and they need to bring a child and have a little extra one-on-one attention, the other therapists can manage the group and have those continued experiences with the whole group. [LATOYA] Tell us how that group therapy ecotherapy works. Are you very careful about the the max number in the group, exactly who you let into this group on this day or is it like, hey, we’re doing a walk sign up? [COURTNEY] Yes, we do a close group. So there’s a sign in and we have a maximum of eight children and two therapists, so a four to one ratio at most. With that there is a structured curriculum. it’s introduction to the nature and things that you might experience, so for those kids who aren’t as aware of nature and mud or noises that you might hear or bugs, those kinds of things, we let them know that these are the things that’ll, that you might see and hear and might experience. We do a lot of introduction to just the five senses of mindfulness, what do I see right now? They can do some exploration. There’s actually a couple of activities of a scavenger hunt, what I can see that’s brown or what I can hear that is loud or that’s quiet, something that’s super small or rough. So we really try to get the kids engaged and aware of their environment, which then later in the group, we change that awareness of our environment to self-awareness. So we talk about listening to ourselves and feeling our breath and listening to the words that we’re saying. Then there’s also some really great reflection for the older children. When I say older, that’s the 14 to 17 year old adolescents where it’s who am I and my system. So there’s lots of trees, there’s lots of different animals that we hear and see out there. We talk about who I am that there’s a really great experiential activity where we find a tree that resembles me and we talk and explore about what that tree resembles in me and how I see that tree. We talk about the tree system, the roots and the trunk and the branches and the leaves and maybe the fruit or the flowers that are on the tree and talk about how that represents my life as well. Like where I’m rooted, how I’ve grown, who my branches are that I can connect with and the fruit that I am the positive qualities in me. So there’s a lot of really great connection with not just understanding nature, but more reflection of understanding the individual and themselves [THERAPY NOTES] Is managing your practice stressing you out? Try Therapy Notes. It makes notes, billing, scheduling, and tele-health a whole lot easier. Check it out and you will quickly see why it’s the highest rated EHR on TrustPilot with over 1000 verified customer views and an average customer rating of 4.9 out of 5 stars. You’ll notice the difference from the first day you sign up for a trial. They offer live phone support seven days a week so when you have questions, you can quickly reach out to someone who can help. You are never wasting your time looking for answers online. If you’re coming from another EHR, they make the transition really easy. Therapy Notes will import your clients’ demographic data free of charge during your trial so you can get going right away. Use the promo code [JOE], J-O-E to get three free months to try out Therapy Notes for free, no strings attached. Remember, telehealth is included with every subscription for free. Make 2022 the best year yet with Therapy Notes. [LATOYA SMITH] I love that. I love that. I was about to ask a second ago too, excuse me, if you see like with the mindfulness and being in nature, the changes that you see in clients? Do you feel like it just causes the therapeutic process to move faster and smoother as opposed to just sitting in the office? [COURTNEY] Yes. So when we talk about mindfulness in the office we have such a limited amount of things in here, so it’s like what do I see and hear and smell and just being aware of the space, but when you create something that’s so novel and experiential, it really sticks. So talking about that cardinal that I saw and the sounds that it made and watching it where it flew. I have clients who are young clients, I see a lot of kids who they’ll keep saying, when I was in Terra Trails, when I was in Terra Trails and they just talk about it and they’re like, well, and there’s some challenges that they give to try to do new and different things that you haven’t done before that’s still safe. We call it low ropes course things where it’s like teamwork and doing some things that are more of that experiential piece. It really does connect with them and they feel proud and they feel confident and they feel more self-aware. I think it’s just really great. It’s a very unique and wonderful program. I say that because I didn’t create the program. I actually helped facilitate the creation of it, but we have some really amazing therapists who came together to create the actual curriculum [LATOYA] Sounds amazing. Sounds amazing. I’m wondering how it works too, even with very shy kids of teens. I wonder if they become more engaging and connected as they’re learning more about self and nature with their peers as well. [COURTNEY] We do challenge by choice, which means you don’t have to talk about something, you don’t have to participate in every single way that we give opportunity to participate. So there’s a lot of, we do journaling, we do drawing, we do some reflective discussions at the end of our groups. And they may just show a picture that they drew or they may bring up one thing that they talk about. But I have seen a lot of people who are more shy, they’re actually usually more self-aware than those who are more extroverted and stimulated a lot. So a lot of times they feel a little more confident in these slower, quieter, mindful places, which gives them a little more bravery, encouraged to participate. [LATOYA] How do you feel like, because you’re talking about it with young people and I see it, I see how amazing it could be and like heartwarming. What about for adults? Do you feel like it’s the same smooth way or maybe it’s a little bit harder for them to find their creativity or to be present in that moment? What do you think? [COURTNEY] I do think it is more difficult for adults to step out the task, task, task rigor. We actually do have a curriculum for Terra Trails for teenagers transitioning into adulthood. We talk about the path of life. We talk about the awareness of who I was, who I want to be, those goal setting things. I think whenever you can take what’s happening in nature and find a way to have a metaphor or a connection into their life, they’re more engaged and they’re more in tune to that and they’re more willing to participate. So it’s not just here’s nature for the adults. It is a lot more reflective, a lot more intentional of that discussion in communication in groups. [LATOYA] Okay, can you give an example of what that would look like just for those listening? How can you say something to an adult to have them like, hey, shut everything else out. Let’s just be right here. What’s one that you may use more often than not? [COURTNEY] So what we might do is take our yoga mats out and we were like, you find a space you want to be in. It doesn’t have to be in this close proximity, but a place that we will see you and can call you back in. That is your space and you just spend some time alone and introducing some of that mindfulness and that grounding technique as well in the beginning. But then what are the thoughts that come into your head as you’re sitting out here? I’m bored. I’m thinking about when is this group over? I’m thinking about my bills. I’m thinking about my job. So that self-awareness, we come in, we bring it back, what was that like for you? What was that experience and that time, that five minutes? We don’t even say 30 minutes out there. It’s hard to do a little bit of that alone time without getting distracted easily with our mind. Then we talk about different ways to compartmentalize and just be present. We don’t want to compartmentalize everything, but we want to be able to have stillness and focus in different areas because in our American culture it’s five things at once going on. It’s the TV and the phone and the computer, and I’m talking to my friend and the all these things that are going on in my mind. So it’s helpful for all of us, I think but it does take some practice to get into that experience and that mindset. [LATOYA] And these are still, whether it be the group or individual by hour long sessions, 50 minutes to an hour? [COURTNEY] So the groups are a little bit longer. We have done hour and a half groups, but I think this year, because we’ve asked some feedback from everybody, they want two-hour groups. They want, instead of four week groups, they want six week groups. So we’re trying to meet the needs of our clients and those who are participating. You don’t have to be a client of Terra Therapies to be in Terra trails. It’s not therapeutic deep in individual work but it is a great self-reflection, practicing some new coping skills, practicing some self-awareness and meeting some really cool people too. But yes, we’re in the process of getting those groups scheduled and figuring out, we have people waiting already for the groups, which is exciting for us. We’ve been doing it for a year and now this will be our second year. [LATOYA] That is awesome. So it’s like, hey, sign up for the group and anybody can come. You don’t have to be a client with us but just join this group. I love that. I love that you said too, like you’re, you’re hearing the feedback from the client like, hey, no, make it longer and then make it six weeks because we enjoy this over here. [COURTNEY] It’s actually, it feels really wonderful to hear. We’re like, we’re going to put this out there. This is something really new. Not a lot of people are aware of what ecotherapy is, but when you get out and experience it, I mean, I did the first run through just to see what it was like and I was like, I want to be out here longer too. So it is really wonderful and it’s a great practice. I encourage anybody get out in nature in any way, just sit on your front porch in the sun or go for a walk around the block but we love utilizing the trails and the river here. [LATOYA] So you have, I think you said a total of 11 therapists on staff at your practice? [COURTNEY] Yes, we have some fully licensed therapists. We have some associates which are not fully licensed, who are supervised by me and then we brought on two master’s level students as well who are doing their practicum and internship with our office. [LATOYA] Awesome. So it’s not, just for anybody else who has a larger practice too, wants to try to implement this, every therapist doesn’t have to be on board. It’s the ones who enjoy it and want to, so it’s not a man, you don’t, hey, you can do, you can go out, do it together, but you’re not, if you feel it, you can do it [COURTNEY] That’s what I tell my therapist, your work here is to do your best work. If you’re not enjoying what you are working with, who you’re working with, you’re not going to do your best work. So I really let my therapist choose what population they see and I let my therapist decide their work hours, which is really different for a lot of practices, but I think that’s a way to really value your therapist and have more buy-in for them. Because some therapists, like myself, I don’t do marriage counseling. I have been in a practice in the past where I was told I had to see couples and it wasn’t my best counseling. It wasn’t, I really love working with parents. I love working with the family system. I love working with adults and individuals and children. But doing that marriage work, I wasn’t well qualified for it. I didn’t have the training for it, and I don’t think I was the best therapist in those settings. So from my own personal experience, I do the same thing here. What do you feel is your competency? What do you feel is your theoretical approach? Who do you want to work with? I want you to be the best therapist for your client because our clients are who are coming for our help and we need to help them the best we can. [LATOYA] Awesome. I love it. I love it. For the practice owners, the therapists listening that either want to add this to their own private practice, want to take this back to whoever’s running the practice and say, hey, let’s do some ecotherapy, what are some, just some tips, maybe they’re not located or maybe from a different state. There’s no trails. Just give some any quick tips you have for somebody that wants to begin to implement this for those beautiful fall walks coming up? [COURTNEY] So excited for the fall weather. I was driving and I was like, it’s in the 70’s this morning. It’s not 90 degrees. I would say making sure and I am very, our mission statement in Terra Therapies is compassionate, professional, and ethical counseling. So if those three things are met, everything else is a cherry on top. When we’re working with our clients, we want to make sure we’re being very ethical and professional so if you’re not in a place where there’s a park or a really beautiful river to walk up and down the trails, I would say making sure that you’re creating as much confidentiality and privacy in the area you have you don’t want to be big counseling sign in front of a big counseling office and you’re sitting right in front of the door where people are walking in and out. That’s not going to be very professional and ethical for your clients. And making sure your clients understand the possibilities of broken confidentiality. They may overhear what we’re talking about and walking past us as they’re jogging. We say the same thing in Terra Trails. We request confidentiality of anything that’s brought up, but I can’t control what other people do and say. So there’s a trust factor that we have there so can we all trust each other to keep what’s said here private? You can share your own story but don’t share other people’s stories. It’s just not helpful for our process. But I would say if you have a park down the road, hey, how do you feel about taking a two-minute walk down to the park and us sitting under a shade tree where maybe in the middle of the day when it’s not as busy but being mindful of the traffic you have coming through, with people coming through and the areas you do have. [LATOYA] I love that. So just you can again, it’s for the therapist, too, to be mindful of the space surrounding the office, but then finding that space not in front of the building with a sign, but the neon light, “This is counseling, counseling counseling…” [COURTNEY] Yes, I’m a counselor. I’m counseling right now right here. [LATOYA] But somewhere, even if it’s like more urban inner city, you can still find a park or some space where nature. You can just be present in that moment. I really love this. I’m just going to put this out there too. I know you do supervision. What if another therapist that’s listening right now says I’d love to do some consulting with you around building an ecotherapy or supervise me around this. Is that an option for somebody too? [COURTNEY] Yes. So I do professional consultation for anybody. It can be a one-time meeting, it can be multiple meetings. I’ve done this many times in the past and I have some people I’ve consulted with that have their own private practice and we like celebrate high five and I’m like, give me your card so I can refer people. But yes any questions about supervision, building a practice, hiring process, ecotherapy, I’d be happy to share any knowledge that I can. We really need amazing mental health therapists everywhere. I don’t know if your office has experienced this, but we have a waiting list that we can’t meet. We have 11 providers and we still have a waiting list, but I’m really glad to hear that people are reaching out for that mental and emotional support and we need more professionals out there who can support them. [LATOYA] Absolutely. So tell people how they can get in touch with you now that they heard that and that you’re willing to help them [COURTNEY] Yes, so you can go to our website, terratherapiestx.com, and it’s spelled T E R R Atherapies with an i e s TX for texas.com. Go to our website, you can call us, you can email us [email protected] or call our office. [LATOYA] Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Courtney. I appreciate you. You taught me about ecotherapy. I really enjoyed this conversation. I know you’re helping a lot of people. I often hear that a lot, wanted to get outside the office going to nature and the way you describe it just sounds wonderful and such a blessing to people. So thank you so much for being on this podcast. [COURTNEY] Yes. Well, thank you so much for inviting me, and I look forward to hearing all of your podcasts, 139 episodes, is that correct? [LATOYA] I’m just season two, I just jumped in the last few, but that was it. [COURTNEY] Well, I’ve got a lot of stuff to still learn too, so I’m going to be tuning in as well. Thank you so much for our time this morning. It was very nice to meet you and talk with you today [LATOYA] Yes ma’am. Thanks once again to Therapy Notes for sponsoring this episode. 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