[JOE SANOK] A new year, a new you, yeah, how about a new year, a new private practice? If you’re ready to start a private practice this year, or maybe you just got one going and you’re thinking, did I do it right, how do I do it right, how do I leave this full-time job, I have a 28-step checklist just for you to walk you through the initial steps of starting a practice. Just head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/new. Again, that’s practiceofthepractice.com/new. This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 836. I’m Joe Sanok, your host, and welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I am so excited about today’s episode. When I first started my counseling private practice in 2012 I had it as this little side gig, or no, 2009, not 2012, 2009, I started it, I had no idea even like how to find clients. I put this website up, it was on Microsoft Office 360 or something like that, itt was some, then Microsoft offered relatively cheap. I got a phone number and like, that’s about all I knew. Then somebody told me about Psychology Today, so got a profile there and I remember I was invited for a different topic to be on local radio. I was talking about this sailing program I had started where we did therapy on the sailboat with these kids that were in probation and different things. It was part of like a grant fundraising helping people learn about this really cool service we were offering through a nonprofit. I got to know this lady Mary in the morning and every, I think it was every Tuesday or every other Tuesday, I’d go in there at 7:00 AM before I went to my full-time job and just take calls. We’d have different topics and I’m so glad on my intake paperwork I had, how’d you hear about us? Over and over, I kept getting people saying, I heard you on the radio. It was mostly a female-driven show and so a lot of moms a lot of wives that then had their husband come in for therapy. It was like my first time really experiencing attracting clients and having to figure out how people thought and I was just shooting in the dark. There weren’t podcasts like this out at that time. It’s actually one of the reasons I started this podcast is because there weren’t, so we were the first podcast to talk about this stuff. Over and over it’s like, I picked up a thing here, I picked up a thing there. [JOE] Today we get to hang out with Luke Charlton. Luke is a client attraction specialist who works exclusively with coaches and therapists and counselors, people who are doing this type of work. He’s helped over a thousand coaches to grow their business with paid ads, email marketing, spanning 70 plus niches. So, I’m so excited to dive in with you today. Luke, welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. [LUKE CHARLTON] Hey, Joe, pleasure to be here. [JOE] Yeah, yeah, well, let’s just start with how’d you get into being a client attraction specialist? [LUKE] Yeah, I didn’t just wake up one day and say I’m a client attraction specialist [JOE] You didn’t get a master’s degree in client attraction specialties. [LUKE] Well, it’s funny, I actually went to university and I did communications, and then I went into like a marketing, and then I went into marketing and I hated it actually, funnily enough. All the stuff that I learned in university, basically, I use 0% of it today. That don’t teach you how to attract clients at university or any of the like direct marketing that we use, we entrepreneurs use online today. But anyway, yeah, so the way, what happened was, I was actually in a, like, I’m from Canberra, which is like Washington DC. It’s the capital of Australia so there’s lots of government jobs, like I would say like 80% of Canberra is just like public service. I was in the public service working for the AFFP, which is like the FBI of Australia and just doing computer stuff there. I just hated the nine to five life. This was like back in 2011, 11/12. So I was constant, because I didn’t like the nine to five life, I was constantly searching like, what can I do because I’m not going to be doing, I don’t want to do this for the rest of my life. I was really passionate about like health and going to the gym and I got my personal training certificate. So what I decided to do was leave my nine to five. At that time, I’d also learned about coaching so I thought I’ll combine my passion for health and personal training, like the fitness side of things with coaching, so like helping people get into shape plus adding like the mental side of the mindset side of things. I quit my job, I moved to London and I was like a health coach and I absolutely hated it, like I got, and to answer your question of like, how did I overcome, well, I found out like growing my business was, it’s a lot harder than what I thought it was going to be. I just failed at a lot of things basically, like in that first year in London, I think I did like about 17 different marketing strategies and I got one client and that didn’t even come from my marketing. It came from like another, I invested in this speaker program and I met this guy and helped him with his copy. While I was over in London and I realized I didn’t want to do the health side of things, so I liked it for myself, but not for other people. But what I fell in love with was the marketing and copywriting and sales side of things. So I just started helping coaches because I found I had like a natural talent for it, I guess. [JOE] So how did you go from, when you were in university and you said you did marketing, you didn’t really like it to then, like what was different to then actually like marketing later on? [LUKE] Yeah, because I didn’t, I guess when I quit and moved to London, it wasn’t obviously to grow marketing business. I was in health then. As you know when you start your own business, you have to do marketing and sales. This is part of what you have to do to attract clients. So I learned about like content marketing or about direct marketing, about lots, I was focusing on all the organic strategies in the beginning because I had not much money to run ads. It just wasn’t really on my radar to run advertising. So I was focusing on all the phrase stuff. That’s how I learned what marketing is. Well, I learned, there’s like two types of marketing and there’s like branding and there’s direct marketing, or direct response marketing is another word for it. So brand marketing, most people are familiar with and they, that’s what they think marketing is where you just spray your marketing message everywhere, like McDonald’s or Coke where you just see them on billboards. That’s branding. But, we entrepreneurs, small solo professionals, we don’t have the billions of dollars in marketing budget and so that’s not a great approach for us. A better approach is to use direct response marketing where basically, what that is it’s marketing that’s designed to get a response. So you can measure it very specifically, so for example, if you put up an advertisement, it’s not designed to brand your business, it’s designed to get a response. So for example, designed to get someone to opt-in to your email list or to get someone to opt, sign up for a webinar. So direct response is basically, you put up an offer, now this could be an offer inside an ad, as I said, or it could be an offer in a Facebook group. But the point is, there’s some type of offer that’s designed to get a response. So someone, a response being someone clicking on the post or someone opting into your list or signing up to a webinar or booking an appointment with you. So that’s direct response and that’s a much more efficient and effective form of marketing for us professionals, service professionals. That’s what I fell in love with and started, actually felt that, and also copywriting, so copywriting is what was like my first thing that I really loved. Then I got better at actually marketing and generating leads, creating better offers, and then sales. Then I got this side gig in an agency in 2016 and I went from spending like $20 a day on my advertising to like a hundred thousand dollars a month, like literally overnight because I knew I wanted to learn advertising from all my failed attempts at organic strategies. So I learned very quickly how to run, run ads. I was thrown in the deep end and since then I’ve spent millions and millions of dollars in ads. I run ads for my clients, generated hundreds and hundreds of thousands of leads and helped my clients generate millions, tens of millions in sales, actually. So got a lot of experience with running ads and creating profitable advertising campaign. That’s like a little snippet of my journey. [JOE] Yeah, I feel like a lot of therapists, they get the organic side of it, like writing blog posts about depression or writing they understand the basics of SEO, the basics that people need to know that you like are offering something. But then when it comes to paid advertising, that’s where I feel like the average person is so scared to lose a bunch of money, not know how to track it or even to track it in a way that breaks confidentiality or makes people feel icky. Like it’s one thing if I click on a pair of shoes, I’m like, “Ooh, I love those shoes on,” say Instagram, and then I see those same shoes show up in an ad a couple days later, like, oh, that’s right, I liked those shoes. I should get those shoes. That’s not nearly as creepy as if I Google should I have a divorce or get a divorce and then all of a sudden, I start getting all these ads about like, yeah, divorce counseling — [LUKE] You don’t need to Google these days, like you don’t. [JOE] They just know. [LUKE] They’re like listening to you [JOE] They’re like, your phone was close to other people that are divorced. So I guess, I just want to at the front end say that there’s a lot of hesitation for therapists to want to do paid ads because they don’t want to spend too much money, they don’t want to screw it up and they don’t want to have their clients, they don’t want to come across as the icky ambulance chaser type of therapist. So what should we deconstruct in regards to all those maybe roadblocks people have in regards to paid advertising? Like what should we deconstruct to make sure people have an accurate understanding before we dive into the actual strategy? [LUKE] Yeah, there’s a, oh actually I’ve got a really great, so I run ads for a client and she’s not a therapist, but I mean her field, basically, she helps couples who are going through infidelity, so one of the, like the wife or the husband has cheated. We have an advertising campaign where it’s basically like, hey is this your situation? That’s who I help. We lit like the ad literally just, it promotes her service in the answer. It goes from the ad straight to an application. Now, I mean, this type of work, we’re helping couples with infidelity, like they, that’s quite sensitive. Also, it could be something that therapists work, so this is quite relevant to therapists. But that’s like a, probably an example that you are probably bringing up right now on like a very sensitive topic. One of the, the way that I look at it is if someone’s in, if someone’s in pain and for everyone listening to this, your clients, your patients, they’re in pain, they’ve got a very painful problem, if you don’t do your best to get your message out there and say, hey, I can help you, like if personally I think you’re doing a deservice to those that are in pain that you can actually help. So that’s all I see. I see if you put up an ad that says, “Hey, are you struggling with infidelity, I can help save your marriage,” my particular client, she’s got a 96% success rate for infidelity, which is just amazing and I say that in the ad, but for me, like if you have a service that helps people, like why, particularly if you’re a therapist helping solve a very painful problem why wouldn’t you be trying to get your message out in front of your ideal client and telling them about it. [LUKE] Because at the end of the day, a lot of therapists, like they struggle to market, like people don’t know about them. They’ve got an amazing service, people just don’t know about it. That’s why I love advertising because you can get in front of your ideal client, literally like, within 10 minutes, you just put up your ad and off you go, it’s running. So that’s why I look — [JOE] So really it sounds like what you’re saying is some strategies might say have someone do a quiz, send someone to a blog post to like build that know, like, and trust. But you’re saying in a lot of these industries that are more sensitive, more therapeutic people know their pain, they want the help, just send them right to the “contact us” “schedule with us” type of page? [LUKE] Yeah, so there’s different, in a market it’s broken down into different types of prospects, is probably the easiest way to explain it. Some are ready, so for example, let’s say in, again, infidelity is a good example, some they’ve just had their couple cheated and one of them’s cheated and they’re ready, like they’re in a lot of pain and they’re ready for help right now. That’s a small, people who are ready for help right now that are willing to book an appointment that’s a smaller, although it’s the low-hanging fruit. It’s a small segment of the market. That’s ideally who you want to go after first because they’re in the most pain, they’re willing to book an appointment, they’re willing to invest right now. That’s like people with the problem. Then you’ve got a larger part of the market which maybe aren’t ready to book an appointment, but, let’s say the married couple, one of them has cheated, but the other one hasn’t found out yet. So then one couple is maybe doing some research on like, oh my gosh, I need to tell my wife about this. I don’t know how she’s going to respond. Then a blog post comes up saying like how to save your marriage. The point is that prospect may not be willing to book an appointment because there’s no problem, but they know that they’ve cheated and they’re looking for more information. So they’re at a different level of motivation. This is what I find that if you put the wrong offer out, you can attract the wrong person. For me, for running ads, I want to go for the low-hanging fruit in the the first instance, those that are in pain right now that want help right now. Then later once you’ve scaled that as high as it can go, then you look at content type pieces, maybe webinars that are that are attracting that slightly less motivated part of the market because they’re going to be the lower quality leads. This is where I see a lot of coaches and therapists, they’re often not targeting the low-hanging fruit the most, the part of the market that’s in the most pain. Does that make sense, Joe? [JOE] Yeah, yeah. Will you take us through some of just like the basic logistics of what people should know if they want to do their own paid advertising campaigns? [LUKE] Yeah, that’s a great question. Okay, so the first things first, it doesn’t actually start with like, okay, what should I write in my ad, or what type of ad or what type of funnel? I don’t know how familiar your audience is with the word funnel, but funnel is just the process that you use to convert them after they click, or how do you get them onto an appointment basically? There’s different strategies. As I said, you can send them to a webinar, you can send them to a five-day challenge, you can send them straight to an application as I mentioned before. So you don’t actually worry about that first. If you want a profitable advertising campaign, it doesn’t even start with your own offer or your own service. It actually starts with your market. This is really, really critical. So what you want to do generally, generally if you’re a coach or a consultant or a therapist, is you want to pick a very painful problem that you are solving. For me it’s like no clients. I help coaches and therapists who have no clients. That’s my painful problem, so for my client that I just mentioned a second ago, hers is obviously infidelity. I was speaking to another client yesterday on my coaching call, hers is IBS, Irritable Bowel Syndrome. The point is, you want to start by looking at your marketing core. What is the one really painful problem that I solve or can solve? Ideally you want that to be unique, in other words, way of saying that is like a niche problem. For example, you can help people who are just having relationship problems, like having arguments or whatever. Or you could get more specific into a specific relationship problem, which again, an example of that would be infidelity. Another example of that would be domestic violence. Another example would be low libido or something like that. So pick a very painful problem and ideally a unique problem because the more unique it is, the easier it is to actually stand out with your ads. Obviously, when you choose a unique problem, like a niche, as everyone’s heard before that puts you as a specialist. So whether you’re a coach or a therapist that’s number one. If you want a profitable advertising campaign, it’s so, so critical. The other great thing is if you choose a very clear problem, you can often, as I just said, literally put up an ad saying, I help do you struggle with this? I help with this problem, go here to apply. Now you can actually create a very short funnel or a very short sales process and just get people booking in applications. So number one is what’s the painful and ideally unique problem that you are solving? Then number two, that’s when you look at your offer, that’s when you look at your service and go, okay, how do I communicate my program, my offer, my service in a way that speaks to that problem? Meaning in a way where it says, yes, I solve that problem. This is where again, where a lot of therapists, coaches struggle is, they lead with their therapy. They try to sell the person on their services by saying, hey, I’ll give you 10 sessions or let’s just do session to session. The person, your prospect, and this is really critical, they’re not buying your therapy sessions. They’re not buying your coaching, they’re not buying your consulting, whatever your service is. That sounds weird. It sounds like an oxymoron or counterintuitive. What they’re buying is a solution to their problem so you have to communicate that to them when you sell them. It’s like, hey, do you have, are you going through infidelity? I can help save your marriage. Okay, we’re going to do that in this program as an example. Again, therapy is a bit different because often you do it session to session, but still the same principle applies. You want to speak to that problem saying, do you have this problem in your relationship or in your life, whatever that is. I help solve that for my patients or for my clients. That’s really critical. That’s what they’re buying. If you just say, I’ll just, I’m charging $100 per therapy session, immediately they associate the value with each session that actually devalues your service. If you want to charge a lot more, start by solving that one painful problem. That’s where the value is. That’s how you can raise. If we just look at your most, just look at the most successful therapists, particularly the ones that specialize in a certain area, notice how they’re able to charge a lot more. Because when you specialize, what that means is you are solving a specific problem. The reason why very successful therapists charge a lot more is because almost always they’re solving a very specific problem. So the value is in solving a problem. It’s a really small tweak, but it will enable to, for you to sell a lot easier and raise your prices as well. [PoP] Are you ready to leave your full-time job for private practice? Maybe you work at community mental health or at a nonprofit, or you’re a 1099 or a W2 at a private practice already. Is this the year that you start a solo practice? Or maybe you already started a solo practice, but you really not sure if you’re doing it right. I want give you something totally free to help you out on your journey. I have a 28-step checklist to make sure that you start a solo practice correctly. It’s totally free, it’s a download, I just get your email and send you other tips that are going to help you be able to grow your solo practice. You’re going to get weekly emails that help you to start your practice correctly. If that sounds good to you, head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/new to grab that 28-step checklist. Again, that’s practiceofthepractice.com/new and you can grab that 28-step checklist. [JOE SANOK] What would you say to people because I can hear some of the therapists pushing back where they say, well, I can’t guarantee that they’re going to like, get through an affair. I can’t guarantee. Like how would you frame that differently if people are like I can’t even overcome depression? [LUKE] That’s a really great, really, really good question. I get this from coaches a lot as well, “Hey Luke, I can’t guarantee,” and I say, “I didn’t say that you had to guarantee.” This is where the difference between a promise and a guarantee is. It’s going to, this is going to sound like, oh, this is a marketing guy speak, but no, seriously, there’s a difference between a promise and a guarantee. Let me define it. A promise is like you’re putting a marketing message out there saying if you are this, like ideal client, you’re this person going through infidelity I can help, I can help solve that problem. I’m an expert at solving this problem. That doesn’t mean that every person that applies to work with you, you are guaranteed. So let’s get that out of the way. You’re not saying you’re going to help every single person. This is a message that’s just for your dream client. So let’s say you’re talking to that person on the phone, even again, then you’re not, and you’re signing them up to your program, you’re still not guaranteeing I will help you. I’m a hundred percent will guarantee that you will have your marriage saved we’re into this. That’s not what a promise is. A promise is just saying, I’m an expert at helping resolve this particular problem. Then I told my clients look on the phone when you’re signing them up after you’ve gone through your sales process, you’ve asked them the questions about where they are, what they want to achieve with their mental health or their relationships or whatever it’s that you’re helping them with. You can say something like, look, yeah, I’m very confident that I can help save your marriage, as an example. As I mentioned before I’ve helped over a hundred other couples who have been in a very similar situation to yours. So I can. If you do the work right, very good shot that that we can help fix this issue. Again, you’re not guaranteeing that you’re going to solve, but you’re saying, look based on my experience and based on the other couples or the other people that I’ve worked with in the past, I’m confident that I can help. So that’s not a guarantee. Now this is where it can get a bit confusing, then you can add a guarantee on top of that if you want. You could say, John, if we don’t save your marriage, if after 90 days your wife still decides to divorce you, then I’d be happy to give you your money back or whatever. So you can have a guarantee if you want. You don’t have to do more therapies. I think you can do that and that’s fine. You don’t, but I’m just saying, I’m trying to describe the difference between a promise and a guarantee. A promise is — [JOE] No, that’s helpful. I think you know also, everyone make sure you check your codes of ethics, your state laws, all of that around guarantees or refunding money. Obviously, we’re not going to be experts on every license in every state or every country. But just understanding these principles of what are options, assuming that it falls within in your codes of ethics and everything. Now when you’re thinking about just like paid advertising in general, what are ways that you can test out ads to figure out what’s really working? Like what should I be watching on a dashboard if I’m, say every couple weeks looking at it or maybe it should be every couple days or hours, I don’t know, like how often should I be looking at the data? What decisions should I be making? How long should I let an ad run to really get good data? Take us through some of that logistical stuff. [LUKE] Yeah, that’s like a whole course of questions, but I’ll endeavor to answer that as best as possible. Okay, so let’s say, so you’ve got your niche, let’s say you’ve got your painful problem that you’ve chosen and you’re like, okay, yeah, I’m going to just specialize in solving this particular problem and I’m going to put up an ad that says, hey, do you are you suffering, listen, again, let’s keep going with the infidelity example, are you struggling with infidelity? Over the last five years I’ve been helping couples to save their marriage, who have gone through this situation? If that’s you click here to book a 20-minute chat and I’ll see if I can help. Just something like that, something similar like that. Let’s say that’s your ad. So what you would do again, this is slightly different between markets, but what you would generally spend to test a message like this, test an offer, because again, it’s this direct response marketing. So we’re just testing our offer, that’s all we’re trying to do. Are we getting a response from this offer, are people clicking on the ad and booking an appointment? That’s what we want at the end of the day for this particular strategy that I’m laying out. For that, what you’d be spending is between probably $150 and $200 total. That’s it, not $150 a day or anything like that, just $150 to $200 total. That will tell you how well your ad is performing, so meaning if you haven’t got any appointments after 150 bucks to $200, then it’s probably not working. What you would do in that instance is you would turn off the campaign and then you would rewrite the ad. Then you are to put another offer up and test that. But again, here’s the thing, if you are solving a really painful, unique problem that’s not, that’s like an 80% to 90% of your success. I mentioned a second ago Joe, that I really fell in love with copywriting toward the end of my time in London. As the years go by, I actually study copywriting less and less even though that was my first skillset. I do email copywriting and I’m pretty decent at it, but where I focus most of my time now is not copy anymore because I know that’s only like 10% of your results. Where I spend most of my time is just picking better problems and crafting better offers. The reason why I say that is if the campaign, if they’re not booking appointments, it’s rarely the copy or even the image or the video, it’s the offer. It’s like the problem that you are speaking to and like the offer that you’re using to try and whatever it is, get them to subscribe to your email list or to get them to book an appointment. So if you add, the point is if you add campaigns are not working, it’s yes, generally because of that. If you pick a painful problem, another way of saying that is if you pick a painful problem, that’s, especially if it’s unique, usually your ad campaigns work like pretty quickly. So in terms of like how do you then analyze all the data, again, that’s like a whole course, but does that give you a general view of what I mean. [JOE] I mean, you’ve given the basics of it for people, and I think for a lot of this it’s just jumping in, getting your feet wet and doing your best to give it a whirl. It’s sort of like, I remember when I was a kid and we got a VCR, it’s like my mom was so scared she was going to break it and I just messed around with it till I figured out how to program to record TV shows. Then she just never learned how to do that. But it’s like sometimes people feel that way about their website or they feel that way about their marketing, but oftentimes it’s like just dive in and give it a whirl. The last question, Luke, that I always ask is, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? [LUKE] What would I want them to know, that’s a great question. I mean, we’ve gone through like the fundamentals of attracting clients with ads so I won’t dive into that, but what I would say is because obviously one of the big parts of being successful in business is like your attitude, your approach to that. So if you are a therapist that is in a place where you need more clients, although I think like the two best principles for success is being persistent and being patient. That’s something with the patient side, especially that’s something that we don’t have much in western society. We just want everything like yesterday. But yeah, if you are wanting to be like a successful therapist, if you continue moving forward and if you are continually like trying and testing and tweaking different things, you cannot not be successful. Have a bit of patience, have persistence. You cannot not not be successful. It’s only when you stop and you give up, that’s when you definitely can’t be successful. So what I’ve found with the most successful coaches, therapists are simply the ones that continue to take action. They just look at what feedback they’re getting from the actions that they take and then they adjust. It’s like, I don’t know if this is a good analogy, it’s like what the mouse in the maze with a bit of cheese in the middle and it’s just going, it’s like trying to find the cheese. It can smell it and it’s just going down every corridor like frantically to try and get that cheese in the middle and eventually it gets to that cheese simply because it’s just trying and trying and trying, trying. That’s like what our business is like, particularly in the beginning. It’s just like trying a lot of things, looking at the feedback, okay, that’s not working, let’s try something else. You just keep moving. You just keep persistent. You just keep being patient knowing that as long as you keep testing and tweaking and moving forward, you will get to that success that you want. [JOE] That’s so awesome. If people want to connect with you, if they want to connect with your work what’s the best way for them to connect? [LUKE] I think probably a good thing to do is if you want more clients, I have this free guide called the 9 Email Offers That Get Clients for Free. If you’ve got like a patient list or a client list you can just go through this guide and send out some of the offers and see if they book you some appointments. So just go to 9emailoffers.com, that’s the number 9emailoffers.com and then also on my email list, I send out a lot of good content on getting more clients as well. That I think will be very helpful to the therapist listening. [JOE] Well, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice Podcast. So many great ideas and in the closing of the show I’m going to implement some of them, so thanks so much for being here. [LUKE] Thanks mate. [JOE] Well, Luke got me thinking about how I talk about the pain of what we do. So if your therapy practice is empty, if it’s not full, if it’s not where you want it to be and it just feels like a struggle and you want some help with that, or maybe you’re working a counseling job and you listen to this and you’re dreaming of starting a practice or you have a side gig, solo practice, but you know you’re getting burned out on that full-time job, we would love to help you. If you head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/apply you can apply to have us work with you. We’ll do a strategy call and we’ll just let you know where we would spend our time and our money if we were in your situation. We have enough people applying at every phase of practice that there’s no point in squeezing you into something you don’t need. If that sounds good to you, head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/apply. Today we actually have a free gift for our audience. We’re going to be our own sponsor today. If you’re just starting a practice, if this year you’re like, this is the year, or maybe you just started one last year and you’ve got that solo practice, want to make sure you did it right you can get our 28-step checklist on starting a practice over at practiceofthepractice.com/new, that’s [NEW] and you’re going to get that checklist totally free and then you’ll be enrolled in our free email course that’s all about starting a practice. So you’ve got a weekly email really keeping you on track and it’s totally free over at Practice of the pr, I can’t even see my own website. It’s been almost 10 years since I’ve, now over 10 years since I launched this, over at practiceofthepractice.com/new. I’ll say like a robot so I don’t stumble over my words. Thanks so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.