[JOE SANOK] This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 767. I’m Joe Sanok, your host and welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I am so excited today we’re going to be hanging out with Anna Saviano, and this is part of our Level Up series that’s going on throughout all of August and early September, where we’re interviewing people that are leveling up in all sorts of different ways in their private practice and going beyond their private practice and starting in private practice, all sorts of just stories of people’s leveling up. Today, Anna, I’m so excited to have her on the show today. She’s been a part of Audience Building Academy and we’ve been working together. My approach to this interview today is to just talk through how she decided that it was time to level up and build an audience in different ways but also how things sometimes get in the way of that. Anna, welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. [ANNA SAVIANO] Thank you so much for having me. [JOE] Well, let’s just start with tell us a little bit about your private practice and tell us a little bit about who’s important in your life. [ANNA] Sure. I’ve been in private practice as an individual therapist for probably about seven or eight years prior to hiring my first person as a group practice in January of 2020. Then by the end of 2020 had hired two more people and rented some office space and hired an admin. So for most of 2021 it has been very focused on growth, retention, getting our processes in place and all of that. I was in some other groups with other group practice bosses and that thing so that’s all been really great. Then I think, I don’t know, in one of those groups this program came up and as 2022 was starting off thinking about how else to diversify income and product, I guess content wanting, to just be able to maybe do different things clinically and professionally that weren’t just seeing clients myself. That was the professional side of things. In that time also, 2018, I separated from my previous husband. I have two kids, our neighbors, I’m actually recording from his basement, so things are pretty amicable. But it also became clear that some priorities had to shift financially and time-wise and things like that. Yes, that was a big piece of doing this and wanting to be able to have more time with my kids and not have to be in the chair all the time in order to ensure our financial wellbeing. Yes, so that’s been what’s going on [JOE] That’s a great summary. Take us back to when you were first starting the practice. What was helpful in helping you level up from even not having a practice? What was life like at that point and why’d you start a practice? [ANNA] Because I had to partly, but also I was supervising and I really enjoy supervising and I love working with new clinicians. That was, I wanted to do more of that and then it became just the next logical step to have a space outside of the group that I was co-opting with so that it was just more clear boundary I guess. But I love working in a group and I love supervision and I actually at the first Killin’It Camp in the fall of 2019, met a whole bunch of people and one of the consultants that I met there was like, it sounds like you’re starting a group practice. I was like, is that what I’m doing? Not what I want to do. Maybe so. So I did some official consulting which was, I mean, I can’t even imagine trying to do this just like by myself. That was really the big thing that helped me know how to do it even because, of course, we don’t learn these things in school and really figuring out what I liked and what I didn’t like and what I wanted things to look like just in the structure of my practice even so that consulting — [JOE] Yes, I think that just that idea of starting from scratch on your own compared to the time you saved by just like working with someone, whether that’s in a group program or individually. Man, I grew so much when I worked with Jamie Masters when I was launching Slow Down School. I talk about it frequently where I had sold one ticket and I put all this time into it and then I worked with her and I probably made the amount it cost to do the consulting off of Slow Down School, but the knowledge I gained in six months of consulting was just so much better. The next year we had 30 some people at Slow Down School and it’s just being able to figure out how do you do it differently and I mean just things that were really dull moments where she said to me, “Well, how are you doing most of your marketing?” “Well, I’m emailing, we did this podcast promotion, this and that.” She’s like, “So one ticket you sold, how did you sell it?” I was like, “I jumped on a phone call with him,” and she’s like, “So why aren’t you jumping in the phone calls with people?” That’s what I’m paying for. But it’s like she had it and so I just sent out an email and said, “I’d love to jump on a phone call with you if you’re slightly interested with Slow Down School. No hard sell, let’s just chat about what the vision for it is.” That week I think I did 20 calls and sold 14 tickets. It was insane. [ANNA] So like just do the things that work. That makes sense. [JOE] Yes, and have somebody that’s outside of you say, “Well, have you tried this?” At what point did you start to think, “Well, I want to build an audience outside of the group practice?” [ANNA] I got approached probably a year ago maybe to do some business consulting with a local therapist who I think was in school when I was teaching grad school maybe. I don’t know exactly how our paths first crossed, but I’ve known her for a long time and she was in the place where I had been of being an individual private practice person and then wanting to maybe move into group and how to know how to do that and how to know if that’s even what you want. So we started working together and the way that it is just like clinically too, of you say the same things over and over and it’s like, I should really streamline this or how can I get the same information to more people without it having to just be one-to-one every single time, and so trying to think about what the options might be in that regard. That was last year and we’ve worked off and on and like she and I have and then like I said, I think that this program came into my awareness through some other group that I was in and you and I got on a call and talked about it and that’s how that happened. [JOE] So when you think about going through Audience building Academy, what for you, what have you figured out through it and where have you seen ooh, I need to dig in a little more there than I thought? [ANNA] Oh man, I have figured out that I do not love to put myself out there in that sort of vulnerable, listen to me, I’ve got important things to say way because that feels imposter or not necessarily true that I have a lot on my plate. I also moved in the last couple months, well in the last month, but putting my house on the market and doing all that, which took up obviously a massive amount of time and energy. So really needing to have clarity on what are the things that matter and how to allocate my time accordingly, which has been sort of a life journey for me is that time allocation because I say yes to everything and I want to do everything and I love people and my friends and my family and I have lots of people and I want to see them all, all the time. So it’s hard to hunker down and do the work of this. So I’ve, I mean that has become more clear. I don’t want, don’t know that, I didn’t already know that, but yes, that’s, at least that’s a big piece of it. [JOE] How are you sorting that out? How are you sorting out the time management and where to spend your time and what to say no to and moving and all that? [ANNA] Well, for one, with my Google Calendar, because I am pretty loyal to the things that are on the calendar. So if I put it on there, I’m pretty good at making sure that I do it. Recently started using the Google Tasks also so that when I have the time blocked off to do whatever work, I’m not sitting there wondering what exactly I should be doing in that time. And really trying to just keep returning to the what are those top priorities in the business stuff that I’m trying to do that is easy to let go by the wayside because it’s not urgent. So it’s like that lack of urgency can mean that it doesn’t get done, like the stuff that isn’t on fire right in front of me trying to like take care of the fires and then also do the higher level stuff. [JOE] I just, this weekend I had to drive up to my vacation rental and dropped off toilet paper, which is, so like, not a great use of my time, but whatever. It had to get done. People were coming and the cleaning crew was like, “Oh, there’s none here.” I’m like, “What? How did that happen?” Anyway, so I had a bunch of time in the car and a friend had recommended this thing called time management for mortals by Oliver Berkman and it’s in the Waking Up app that Sam Harris puts out. I just actually just texted it to you, a link to it. But one thing he was talking about in it that I loved was there was this research study and he was talking in this one short snippet, they’re like 10 minutes long about how a lot of times we think of like decision-making fatigue and all of that and decision-making being a big part of just making decisions and doing time management, overthinking things and not wanting to go down one path because then it eliminates all these other paths. There was this research study where they gave this free art to the participants and in one group they had to decide on the day of and then they were stuck with that art. They couldn’t exchange it back in or anything. Then the other group had two weeks to decide and then I think it was a month or two later they did these like happiness skills of how satisfied they were with their art. They actually found that those that didn’t have the option to turn the art back in they didn’t have the option to him and haw for two weeks were actually the ones that were happier with their decision. B cause they had picked a direction and then they went in that direction. It’s sort of like, it was probably like April a friend of mine and I were talking about how she had never been to Red Rocks in Colorado and I’m like, well, it’s amazing. So right then we bought tickets to Lord Huron. It’s I made a decision to go to Red Rocks and then everything else. That’s also saying no to everything else that week in June. So for me, just like making decisions has been so helpful for any of that overthinking or perfectionistic mindset or just having too much on my plate because then once it’s there, I can’t do anything else if that thing’s on my plate. [ANNA] Oh yes. That’s good. I love the Waking Up app, I love podcasts, like top five things in my life. I will give that episode a listen. [JOE] That app itself has so many teachings within it that go beyond the podcast. It’s so good. In fact, at the time this recording, it’s before Slow Down School, one of the sessions I’m going to be using in the teaching portion of Slow Down School because it’s just, it’s so good. It’s just like such a great kickoff for when we’re going to be sprinting, you know something that other participants don’t know now. [ANNA] Lovely. [JOE] When you, I think that an important point is just that idea of we sometimes think that if we’re going to do something we have to do it right, do it perfect, run full tilt towards it, hustle. But then the reality of life is we have kids and you move and sometimes you have ailing parents and there’s things that come up. When you are moving and you realized, oh, I can’t maybe put as much into this audience building as I thought I could, take us through what mindset you were in and did you beat yourself up? Did you just say, Okay, just accept it Anna? Or did you, what did that look like? What did that look like from the inside of your brain to give yourself permission to say I can’t go at the pace that I thought I could go at. [ANNA] Oh man, it’s so hard. I am also in Enneagram one, which informs plenty of things in my life in terms of like the way that things are supposed to be done. There is a should and a right way and I probably know it and that is how I will try to do it. I fall short all the time and that is infinitely challenging to me to not be able to do the things that I think ought be done in the way and timeframe and all of that they should be done. So I do know that about myself and I’ve done a lot of work, been seeing my therapist, all of that business to really try and just talk myself into it. But even more than the talking because I could definitely overthink and get into like the hyper cognitive space is slowing down enough and paying attention to my body and to what information that has to offer because that’s where, especially like as a one, but that’s where the wisdom and the information is on any decision. I can argue any side of anything really, but that’s not that helpful when there’s actually just time limited. So to slow down enough to pay attention enough to where there’s tension, where there’s resistance if I consider one path over another and really making decisions that way is so much better obviously than totally rationally. 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Make 2022, the best year yet with Therapy Notes. Again, use promo code [JOE] to get three months totally free. [JOE SANOK] So when you think about making decisions with your body and how you feel compared to just totally rationally, like one of those is very easy to bullet point and here’s the prescription and the other one’s a little more fluid. How do you, if someone said I want to try that, what’s that look like? [ANNA] So for me it looks like meditation on the regular, making sure that I’m sitting down and doing that, which then enables me in real-time, not just when I’m sitting and meditating, but like to be more tuned into what is happening in my body because I can notice a little bit of feeling in my stomach or my heart rate or my breathing or the, a lot of times for me it’s like I don’t want to, and I could logically lay out a plan for any direction, but if that sort of sense of I don’t want to; and it’s never that articulate, it’s always, I don’t want to. But then it’s like, okay, that’s what I have to listen to because that’s truth in my body. So through meditation and through slowing down. I also run and that helps just to have that connection with what’s going on physically. I can tell especially when my hips get real tight, that there’s stuff going on in my life that is not due to running, but that shows up in my running. So that’s how I do it. Certainly, that’s not the only way. [JOE] Yes, but I think that’s important to just say, well, what are some of the pieces that work for you, how do you try new things and even knowing if my body feels this way, then there’s things that are outside of my body that are causing that. So for me, I know, like I had a really bad back injury when I was snowboarding in early college and had to have back surgery at Mayo Clinic. So I constantly have different levels of back pain and so like the last couple weeks there’s been like a flare up and just thinking like, okay, what’s going on? What am I doing differently? I’m like, I haven’t been planking, I have been walking as much as normal. There’s a lot going on with my daughters, like their grandpa just died and it’s like planning slow down. So there’s a lot of stuff going on and I chose not to meditate during that time as much, so just being like, okay, I need to reset. I got to get back into meditation. I can do just a one-minute plank a day and do a couple laps in the neighborhood. The other day I went for a walk and just told the girls like, I’m going to be doing laps around the neighborhood and you know where to find me. My back feels amazing. For years, when we were on the road, I was walking every day and moving my body and doing, and I didn’t have back pain the whole time. I was sitting in the car for six or seven hours sometimes. And then it’s like I get home and I’m like, I don’t have time to walk. It’s like, yes you do, Joe. Do you have time for a back flare up? No. So when you think about being gentle with yourself in maybe not getting done what you thought you’d get done, how does that, like how do you think through the audience building and what you’re going to do next? [ANNA] Well, I know for sure that I can’t rush it or force it because, again, I know when I’ve landed on a thing that’s going to work or a thing that’s not going to work. We talk about hiring in this thing and with my leadership people in my office and my group practice, it’s like I just know things in that intuitive way. So if I tried to rush the audience building stuff, it would not, it just wouldn’t work. I’m 42. I know some things about myself, so I know that that won’t work, so just like reminding myself of that, being in the group and seeing some people who have like checked every box for every week of homework and I’m like, man, you are seriously killing it. Then other people who are like, I’m still doing the very first week’s assignment. Having the other people in there doing everything at a different pace and tons of grace and support and enthusiasm from the other group members has made it feel like, okay, I’m not totally flailing around. My ideas don’t totally suck, and the pace at which I’m going is also okay because I mean, I can get super hard on myself of like, but if I just didn’t what, eat or sleep, I don’t know, then I could get it all done. [JOE] That’s not going to create great content either. [ANNA] Right, exactly. [JOE] Yes. I like that idea of allowing it to unfold as it unfolds. I think there can be for, achiever, like I’m an Enneagram three, achiever. In my head I go to, well, I don’t want to be lazy. I don’t want to just delay things unnecessarily. If I just wait for the muse to arrive, sometimes it’s just doing the work, whether that’s Picasso painting his 10,000 hours or whatever and it doesn’t just arrive. But I also think that it’s not like you’re just sitting around either. A couple things have showed up. So how do you take those steps, like are there things that you’re going to do or you’re doing that help you to, I guess, foster the muscle of audience building while also realizing you want the subject to emerge a little bit more? [ANNA] Yes, I mean, when I first started, I thought for sure that my audience was like new clinicians and the career development aspect of that because it’s one thing that I love, is helping new therapists figure out how to make career choices, business choices, that stuff in a way that makes sense and works and is not just like doing what you’re supposed to do straight out of grad school, whatever that is, because that’s not even all that clear. Then, I don’t know, I mean the email list building, email gathering is like still fairly elusive to me. So as I’ve just been like talking about it, noticing what comes up. There’s a few people in my life that I’ve talked to about their career stuff, which is outside the scope of therapy, one’s a nurse and the other one is a doula and then having conversations about what is not working for them in their job. Same with some clients that I have. Like they hate their work, it’s not inspiring, whatever. So really thinking more in the direction of maybe it’s not just therapists, maybe it’s people at this place in life where I’ve totally been where it’s like I need to pivot. For me it was like required. But you can do it more mindfully than that and with more intention and direction. I really have enjoyed having those conversations with people of how to create meaningful work in real life and so that’s the audience that I’ve shifted toward or maybe just expanded to more broadly. [JOE] When you think about that group’s pain set or what they deal with, what comes to mind as you explore that? [ANNA] It’s just like dissatisfaction, like, nothing’s terrible. They’re not working horrible jobs, but it’s not enjoyable. They’re not fired up about anything. The group practice and operating it has been so fun to me. I love going to work every single day and I know what a huge, I don’t know, blessing, privilege, whatever that all is. So if I can help anybody feel that, then that’s even better, of like crafting your career choices, work choices so that you can pay for your life and live your life and do it in a way that is in alignment with your values and your interests and your schedule preferences and all of that. [JOE] As you brainstorm eventual content, what things come to mind? [ANNA] Well, it’s a little bit therapeutic of like, I use the Enneagram, I use podcasts. I have a lot of playlists on Spotify that I have put together of different podcasts that go with different business things that are more therapy-oriented. But really the values work of some of that self-inquiry of like, what schedule do you want, how much money do you need, talking about the money stuff that people are like, ooh, that’s so uncomfortable. I’m about it. I love talking to people about money. I think that one-on-one, a lot of that is how that would work. I’m still working on, the copywriter has my email course, so we’ll see how that comes back. Then from there, I don’t really know, the video stuff totally freaks me out, social media, I suck at. So we’ll see about those things, but that’s where it is for now. I think a small group situation, maybe a mastermind, maybe group, Facebook group or Circle or whatever the things are that people are doing as a place to just like, because that’s been so impactful in my own path journey to have the groups of people doing similar things or a little bit ahead so that I know which way to go. So those things I would like to do any of that stuff. [JOE] Well, and I think that so often we think we have to do all the social media and it’s like, if you don’t like it do the things you do like to the best of your ability. Then if you do all those things and nobody shows up there, then it’s like, well, I guess I need to do something else. Whereas it’s like if you don’t love hanging out on certain social media, either don’t, or automate it in a different way. Well, I love having you share your journey and really to just basically say to people be gentle with yourself. You’re doing your best and you’re taking steps forward. Here’s a real-life example of what that looks like. If every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? [ANNA] Oh man, I’ve heard you ask this question like 700 times and one might think I would have an answer. I think knowing, really connecting with, again, that body, self to know without it coming through all of the, here’s what you’re supposed to do from culture, from society, whatever, where we get those messages of how things are supposed to go and to really be curious about that, is that really what you want though? [JOE] So good. If people want to follow your journey, if they want to connect with you, what’s the best way? [ANNA] My group practice is Heartland Therapy Connection. There’s a place that you can join the email list there. Back slash consulting has a link directly to that page. My Instagram is Anna Saviano LPC and that’s probably the other best way to find the very random collection of things, but I’m trying to show that my life has all the pieces in it. [JOE] Ah, so awesome. Well thank you so much for being on the show today. [ANNA] Yes, thanks for having me. [JOE] Leveling up looks different for each person and each of us have all sorts of things going on outside of our work as we should. We should be going after friendships or moving or selling houses or hanging out with our kids. This week my brother was in town from Oregon and I had a bunch of podcast recording not with guests, but that I was going to do for Ask Joe’s or for solo shows. This one day I had a whole bunch that was planned and he’s like, “Hey, you want to hang out?” He’s a lot more of a last-minute person than I am. It’s like, he only comes in town usually once a year, and so I’m not going to choose podcast recording over going and hanging out with him. So yes, like today’s a Monday as I’m recording this and usually Mondays are lighter days, but this week it’s not. I’ve Slow Down School next week and we have these chapters that we have to sprint a little differently. That’s okay. It’s okay to say I’m going to adjust things because I want to prioritize my family or do different things. Even last night it was a Sunday and I don’t know why I was so tired. Usually, I’d be straightening up the house, getting laundry going, being a single dad has a lot of work. But I just laid on the couch while my daughter played the piano and I fell asleep at seven o’clock and woke up at like 7:30 and they’re like, “Can we watch a little bit of a movie?” We need to give ourselves that permission to not always be working and not always being productive and not doing things “right.” That we can care for our bodies, we can listen to our bodies, we can do those things. I just love that that was really when we’re talking about being gentle with ourselves, listen to what your body’s saying. This show we couldn’t do without our amazing sponsors. Therapy Notes has been one of our longest sponsors and has the best electronic health records out there. 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