Dr. Chanté DeLoach on Shared Trauma and Deepening Clinical Relationships | PoP 671

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A photo of Dr. Chanté D. DeLoach is captured. She is the founder of luminesce psychological services, a boutique clinical and consulting practice where she provides intersectional, liberation-focused therapy primarily to marginalized communities. Dr. Chanté D. DeLoach is featured on Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.

Have you experienced shared trauma? What are some of the pros and cons of shared trauma in counseling? Which mental health tips can therapists use to help them deal with clinical stress and compassion fatigue?

In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks with Dr. Chanté DeLoach about shared trauma and deepening clinical relationships.

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Meet Dr. Chanté DeLoach

A photo of Dr. Chanté DeLoach is captured. She is an educator, scholar, and practicing psychologist. Dr. DeLoach is featured on Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.Dr. Chanté D. DeLoach is an educator, scholar, and practicing psychologist. She is the founder of Luminesce Psychological Services, a boutique clinical and consulting practice where she provides intersectional, liberation-focused therapy primarily to marginalized communities.

Dr. DeLoach is invested in deep internal and interpersonal work that honors intergenerational legacies of trauma and resilience. She has engaged in trauma-centered community work in numerous countries throughout Africa, Europe, the Caribbean, and the Americas. Dr. DeLoach currently serves as Department Chair and Professor of Clinical and Community Psychology at Santa Monica College. She is the author of How We Practice Therapy Now.

Visit the Luminesce Psychological Services website, and connect with Dr. DeLoach on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

In This Podcast

  • What is shared trauma?
  • Pros and cons of shared trauma
  • Mental health tips for clinicians dealing with shared trauma
  • Focus on what you can control
  • Chanté DeLoach’s advice to private practitioners

What is shared trauma?

When we talk about shared trauma we’re talking about times when therapists and clients both share the same current trauma in real-time. So, in addition to our own direct exposure to the trauma, therapists experience double exposure because we’re also exposed and potentially triggered through our clinical work with our clients. (Dr. Chanté DeLoach)

Therapists can have experienced the same or similar trauma as their clients in their past, but this is different from shared trauma, which is experienced in real-time.

Shared trauma is therefore when the therapist and the client are both going through a struggle at the same time, yet the therapist still needs to lead the client in their healing and hold that space for them.

Pros and cons of shared trauma

Some of the downsides of shared trauma are:

  • Compassion fatigue
  • A decline in clinical decision making
  • Burnout
  • Stress about preserving personal needs while seeing clients

Shared trauma can also create a deep healing space for both the client and the therapist.

The clients, when they know we’re going through things that they’re going through, may deepen the therapeutic repour. It may allow [clinicians] to have a deeper emotional intimacy with [clients], and access empathy that before may have been difficult had we not been going through the same things. (Dr. Chanté DeLoach)

Some positives of shared trauma include:

  • A heightened sense of commitment from therapist to client and from client to therapist towards recovery and healing
  • A deeper empathetic connection and space for listening
  • Personal growth, for both therapists and clients

Mental health tips for clinicians dealing with shared trauma

  • Ask yourself how you are really doing: be on honest and sincere terms with yourself about what you need, what you feel, and what you can do differently for yourself.
  • Look in the rearview mirror: look back over the past few years and see how far you have come, both in your personal and professional life.
  • Practice self-care and collective care: do not be swayed by shallow self-care. Make sure to connect with people with whom you deeply resonate, and commit to daily routines that genuinely make you feel empowered and grounded.

Focus on what you can control

There is a lot in the world that exists outside of your control. Focus your time and energy on what it is that you can control.

Seek joy in your life. Focus on finding the good instead of the bad, and then finding the good or the workable aspects within the bad when it inevitably comes.

The more we focus on those areas that we can control or at least shape and influence a little bit more, the better we’re going to feel. It makes a huge difference. (Dr. Chanté DeLoach)

You have very little control in the world, but you have more than you think, and you can make, find, and bring goodness into your life at any time.

Chanté DeLoach’s advice to private practitioners

Therapy is changing, and it is in your and your client’s best interest to evolve with it.

Do not be afraid of the change and evolution, and instead ask, “how can I do things better and meet my needs as well as the needs of my client in more effective ways?”

Books mentioned in this episode:

Useful Links mentioned in this episode:

Check out these additional resources:

Meet Joe Sanok

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Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.

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Podcast Transcription

This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 671.

I’m Joe Sanok, your host, and welcome the Practice of the Practice podcast. I am so excited that you are here today. If you just discovered this podcast, welcome. I’m really glad you’re here. If you’ve been around for a while, I’m glad you keep coming back. We are doing at least three shows a week now, two interview shows and then the Ask Joe show in the middle of the week. So if you have questions about private practice, free to go over to practiceofthepractice.com/askjoe, and you can submit your question there. We’re trying to make sure that we don’t lose our roots, that we remember that this show started being all about private practice and the business of private practice.

Even though we’re interviewing all sorts of experts about things that, sometimes we sway away from private practice, which I think makes the show interesting and isn’t just private practice, but we want to make sure that we get back to those roots. So if you have practical questions about your podcast, or not your podcast, your practice or podcast, maybe you got a podcast, that’d be cool too, feel free to go over to practiceofthepractice.com/askjoe.

Well talking about getting back to roots, today, we’re going to talk some clinical issues. We’re going to talk about all sorts of things. Today we have Dr. Chante Deloach, who is a licensed psychologist in California and Illinois. She maintains a boutique clinical and consulting practice in Los Angeles, California, where she specializes in trauma and couples therapy. Also, she serves as the department chair and professors of psychology at Santa Monica College and is the author of How We Practice Therapy Now. Welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast.
Thank you. It’s good to be here with you too.
Well, I am really excited about our show today. We’re going to talk about the shared trauma we’ve experienced, the way we felt that in clinical sessions, how that’s deepening clinical relationships. But I want to hear a little bit more about just your clinical background. How’d you get into this work? You have a huge resume of crazy awesome things that you’ve done. Take us through how and why you got into this work.
Good question. So like so many people I got into psychology, just because it spoke to me. It really resonated with me. I really loved the lens of psychology and just thinking about how to view the world, how I can be myself and the people around me, including family, the season for looking at family issues. But when I first moved to Chicago almost 20 years ago now, part of my faculty position was to practice. That was a requirement. We were training clinicians so we were required to practice, which I thought was great.

At the time I was a little burned out from community mental health and counseling center practices. So I thought it would be a great time to start an independent practice. I was really fortunate to have people around me who really supported me and mentored me and gave me a lot of tips. So I started my private practice solo with nothing, but like a business card and got started with all the business side of things one by one after that.
So when you first got going with your business card and just super simple what were some of the challenges? Where did things maybe move faster than you expected?
I had my first client simply by going to a women’s networking event. I literally introduced myself, said that I was a therapist and there was a room full of black and brown women. When I said I was a therapist, they were like, oh, and afterwards I left there with at least one or two clients. So at that point I didn’t even have my website up yet. It wasn’t live. So I was really surprised that with nothing set up officially yet in terms of marketing, that I was able to get clients and just really spoke to the need.
It’s really amazing how we put all these mental barriers in our way of what it takes to launch a practice or launch a podcast or whatever the thing is. And oftentimes it’s like, if you just meet a couple people that are your ideal clients, you can make it work.
Yes, absolutely. It is, the people will come, especially when there’s a need, and when who we are resonates with them and what we’re offering resonates with what they need.
How did you figure out who you were and what you offered? Was that something that was pretty, you knew right away, here’s how I’m going to pitch myself or share who I am, or did you have to do some work around your specialty?
I knew a lot more of what I didn’t want to do in part because I had worked a lot in community mental health and college counseling centers. I knew a lot more about how many clients I wanted to see and where my boundaries were. I learned pretty early on or my threshold was. I’ve always been really committed to providing good care and I never wanted to take on more clients than felt good and felt okay for me, but also for them. So I set a lot of boundaries around that very early on, and I’ve adjusted those boundaries over the years at different points, given other things that I had going on in my life. I’ve always known that I really wanted to work in some of my own communities in African American, Latinx, and South Asian communities. So I really thought about what are the issues that are facing those communities and what do I need to do to ensure that I have visibility in those spaces?
What did you do to make sure that you had that ability to really serve those communities? Were there techniques you used or trainings you got? Take us through that early practice process.
Yes. I think one of the main things was authenticity, leading with my own identities and really speaking on my website or any other spaces about the fact that that is who I want to serve and these are the spaces that I inhabit myself and here are my identities. That transparency and that authenticity, I think gave me one credibility. There’s the visible diversity that I embody, but also just speaking to some of my own experiences that bring me to this work.

While I often don’t think of that as marketing, like in a business sense, it is. It is, for so many people within those communities, therapy is often out of reach or it feels culturally distanced. So being able to see themselves represented, but more importantly, having someone actually speak to the issues that may be arising within their lives, within their family dynamics, marriage, relationships, cultural expectations, racism, homophobia all of those things, that often resonates. So when people reach out to me, that is one of the first things that they will say that this is what drew me.
Now I know that at least from what I’ve observed, it seems like the academic side or the university track is one thing and the clinical track is another. And oftentimes whether it’s, like when I was at an ACA conference, all the professors and people are hanging out together and all the clinical people are hanging out together. But you have both going and I mean, you’ve got this book and all that. How do you manage both sides of the world? Take us through, just what did that look like in regards to your timeline, but then even just emotionally. It’s like sometimes if you don’t focus on one, your career can’t expand as quickly. How did you manage all that? Walk through those?
Well, one, that was something important to me. Very early on, I started teaching in my graduate program. Like so many people, I needed a job. So I was a teaching research assistant, and then some opportunities to teach presented themselves. It worked well with my school and clinical training schedule. I learned that I really enjoyed it very early on. So I kept on with that and I’ve taught in different kinds of programs. What became a challenge was the balance. I think we all have a contentious relationship with that word balance by how much teaching, how much clinical work.

So that has shifted over the years, but what’s been really important to me is that on the education side of things, how I view that as being very much connected to the clinical side of things for me. I believe wholeheartedly in training clinicians and being in spaces where I’m talking about clinical work and getting other perspectives. And especially from newer or developing therapists who have fresh eyes who are not as these and/or think that they know everything.

So that gives me good perspective and allows me to stay abreast of the research and new ways of being with clients. So I really see those things as going hand in hand. Then several years ago I made the change to teaching at a community college. I did that very intentionally to really change the pipeline of who becomes a therapist and who sees themselves represented in the mental health field. Because the community college is so racially diverse but also diverse along other kinds of demographics.
I know that for me, oftentimes we say like, grad school screwed us over. They didn’t teach us anything about the business of private practice. I mean, that’s a line that I often say. Do you feel like that’s changing? What do you see in academia in regards to prepping people for the business of private practice?
When I was training doctoral students, which I don’t as much anymore that was shifting. There was at least one class, I taught a class called seminar and professional practice, and I would include in their way some assignments on developing a business plan, like being able to envision your private practice, how to set up a website, how to do those kinds of things. That was far more than what I ever received in graduate school. Having said that I still think that there’s a lot of room for growth there, whether that is later in training or even continuing education that is eligible for those CEUs that we all need. That’s really focused on the business side of things, like just basic accounting skills, for example, marketing. I mean, you all focus a lot on marketing and these kinds of things. I think that’s a real skill set that we need to continue own. Again, there’s just a lot of growth that’s still needed in our backgrounds and trainings.
Yes, yes, absolutely. The fact that running your business, isn’t considered something that you should get a CE for. I get why we want highly trained clinical people, but even just saying you need one or even as like an elective thing that this can count to just know how not to sink the ship of your business, but someday. Well, the main portion of this podcast that we’re talking about is some of your clinical expertise around shared trauma, especially during this time of COVID pandemic. Take us through what you’ve observed, what your research has been around that. I think that could be really helpful to a lot of our practitioners.
Sure. So first I want to just distinguish like what shared trauma is and how is that different. Because I think a lot of folks may get training and trauma, but oftentimes it doesn’t include shared trauma. So when we talk about shared trauma, we’re talking about times when therapists and clients both share the same current trauma in real time. So that in addition to our own direct exposure to the trauma therapists experience double exposure, because we’re also exposed and potentially triggered through our clinical work with our clients. So many of us may work with clients who have a trauma that we may have backgrounds with, whether that’s childhood based trauma, racialized traumas or that kind of thing. Shared trauma refers to those times when we’re both going through it at the same time yet as therapist we’re still in the driver’s seat and expected to be able to help hold that space for our clients and navigate that healing process with and for them.
So what are some things that maybe clinicians should be aware of or think through in regards to their own triggers, the ways they enter into sessions? Any tips for them in regards to practically in the sessions?
Yes. So first I think it’s obvious that shared trauma can come with some real challenges because, and we’ve all experienced this during the pandemic. Many of us have had increased clinical workloads, emotional exhaustion, compassion, fatigue, burnout. We may, when we’re experiencing shared trauma, feel conflicted between our commitment to our clients and in our own personal and familial needs. We may have a struggle just fully attending and being present with our clients, being able to disentangle or separate our stuff from our client stuff.

It may affect our clinical decision making. But on the positive side of thing, there can be positive gains. Like our clients, when they know we’re going through things that they’re going through, it may deepen the therapeutic rapport. It may allow us to have a deeper emotional intimacy with them, access empathy that perhaps may have been more difficult had we not been going through the same things. So we may feel a heightened sense of commitment to our work because we know what they’re going through, because we’re going through it as well. So personal world, like just as therapist can come out of times such as these. So I think there are a lot of things that we can think about to help us navigate some of the shared trauma. I mean the first thing, certainly you all talk a lot about this on your show and there’s a lot of conversation about self-care for therapists. But I think acknowledging and honoring how we’re really doing, emphasis on really doing.
And I think especially at whatever phase of the pandemic we’re in right now I think really being able to look in the rear view mirror like, oh, wow, what have we actually gone through in the past couple of years? Because it’s been a lot for a lot of us. I just saw yesterday that in the news that we’re at 800,000 COVID related deaths in the US. That’s a lot of loss and that does not count like the ambiguous losses. So just really taking stock of how we’re doing and slowing down some and taking care of ourselves and not just the superficial self-care but also the community and collective care. With people who get what it is that we’ve been doing. So that community of other therapists I think can really make a difference. A lot of people have had to make shifts in their work schedules and how we work during the pandemic. We may not be able to work the same hours or do the same number of sessions back to back in the digital space or at home in a closet or whatever the space might be like.
Say that as I’m in a closet.
I remember when I first started podcasting, we didn’t have a dedicated space for it. The sound was terrible and I bet the first 20 episodes, I had a blanket over my head just to mute the noise. It’s like, yes, you do what you can when you get through. But yes, I think that collective trauma and realizing how are you really doing, for me has been so important in 2021 and entering 2022. Because I had major your shifts in my personal life. I’m an unexpected single dad, that’s raising two daughters on my own now and it’s like, that’s not what I expected. To say for me to show up as a consultant I’ve got to really figure out what I need to do outside of my time as a consultant ad outside of Practice of the Practice.

So even making sure that we have this nice loop here in our neighborhood where there’s not a lot of traffic that goes through. So I’ll text the neighbors, “Who wants to go for a loop,” and in middle of the day, there’s an insurance guy that’s in my neighborhood. There’s another guy that he’s been selling shoes online since like ’96. So didn’t really need to work because he like got in early. So there’s all these entrepreneurs in my neighborhood. One of them is usually up for walking a few loops and just knowing that friendship, but also to be here’s the crap going on in my life. It feels crazy and surreal at times. Just have those people that you can say it’s bonkers what we’ve gone through and what we’re going through. So I’m really glad that you, I like the, really I can picture you just being like, how are you really doing, all caps?
Yes, absolutely. And having folks that you can actually tell the truth too and who are able to hear that and not feel shamed or wrong or just any of those things. Most of my closest friends are all therapists for better or for worse. What comes with that is a shared knowing, an understanding of what we’ve been doing and how tired we are. And especially for folks who have been working with people of color through some of the racialized trauma and stress, there’s additional weight and additional load that we’ve been living, but also holding for clients. So just having support spaces to release and all of that has been essential
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For you personally, what are some things that you’ve found really helpful in regards to that? How are you really doing addressing it personally?
You know, there’ve definitely been really tough times for sure. Like you, I’m a parent. So there’s just been a lot to hold, but also not just with my clients, with my students, with my daughter, in our household. So one of the things that I do, as I mentioned, I have friends who are therapists and so we would get together on Zoom or just on a group chat. We joke that those things must never be released. There’s a lot of swearing.
Oh man. Yes.
A lot of jokes and memes and those things, but it’s just necessary. So I believe in laughter, one of the benefits of, obviously there are a lot of challenges to having a child mostly at home during this time, but we have a lot of laughter and play in our household. That has been probably the best stress reliever is the fact that I’ve got play with my child and just laughing a lot for sure.
Oh my gosh. I feel like, so I had my nieces over, they live in the neighborhood too, the other night, so I’m making dinner for four little girls and I often have music playing and this one song came on. It’s just so danceable. I was like, pause dinner, we’re taking a dance break. Then it was just like, all right, Penelope gets to lead the dance. Everyone dance like Penelope, everyone dance like Lucia. It just, to have that lightness and say, yes, there’s so much in our world we have no control over, but we have control over having a dance party in the middle of dinner and finding those things that provide lightness.

I know for me the book, The Untethered Soul, I’ve talked about that on the podcast before has been such a good book by Michael singer. For most people you can get it for free on Hoopla through your public library to listen to the audio book. But just that idea of there’s so much that we can’t control. You can’t control the weather. So my goal this year is, in Northern Michigan winters to not complain about, like I’m choosing to live in Michigan and part of Michigan is we have four very intense seasons.

That’s not unexpected when we get crazy snowstorms. So just trying to figure out what are those things that are really worth putting my energy into and what are the things that I cannot control that someone else drives way differently than I do. So why even let that cause me any upsetness, even if I’m going to end up being late for something? And just really digging into the very few areas I have any control whatsoever in my life.
I love that. I think the more we focus on those areas that we can control or at least we can shape and influence a little bit more, just the better we’re going to feel. That just makes a huge difference. I’m a big fan of dance parties whenever possible.
So when therapists dive into this work, they’re focusing on how they really are doing, they recognize the shared trauma. Talk a little bit more about the deepening of the therapeutic relationship that comes as a result of that.
During COVID I think it was pretty obvious. Everybody knew that we were all at home and many of us have had inopportune interruptions in therapy, whether that is from virtual school happening or child or someone bursting into the room or toilet flushing in the next room, just whatever it may have been, especially before children were allowed back to school and that thing. So one of the strategies that I use is what I call boundary disclosure, like having appropriate boundaries, but being open and disclosing, I’m going to apologize in advance. They are going to hear my daughter next door, or you’re going to, the walls aren’t made for this. Then going from there, or just feeling open and authentic enough to share something right.

That allows clients to know my energy is a little bit low today. I’m okay to be here. But just know that this week has been a challenging week or something of that nature. I know therapists who have lost loved ones to COVID and have had to disclose and had to figure out how to navigate those things. So I think learning, what am I okay disclosing and sharing and how do I do that in a way where client is still centered and the client doesn’t need to take care of me, but I’m able to be authentic and transparent with my clients for sure.
I think that’s so important to start with some of those things that you recognize in yourself, because otherwise whether it’s a client or a friend or a partner or your child, they’re going to make their own assumptions that most likely are inaccurate. Just yesterday Whitney, Alison and I were recording some episodes that actually, I think it goes live next right after this. Let’s see. So I think it’s actually, it’s the next episode after this one. In the middle of when Alison was talking and I was talking, Whitney started like, she muted herself and she was laughing and I was like, “Is she laughing at me. Is there something that I don’t know? Then she told me something ridiculous had gone past her window that made her start laughing. We make these assumptions and personalize things. I don’t remember. It was something silly, like someone was juggling outside or something crazy like that. I don’t remember what it was, but it’s, of course you laughed at that. That’s crazy.
It’s a reminder that we’re human. We’re human. But today’s clients also want to know something more about their therapists. There’s a trend where you have pharma-therapists who are sharing more themselves, whether that’s on social media, their websites, through classes or other kinds of groups. So that authentic connection and relationship with a knowable person is something that I think can be really attractive and can draw clients to us. Again, not that we’re doing that for marketing purposes, but it is certainly something that allows clients to connect and know that they want to work with us, that they feel like the relationship is not only unilateral.
Well, I want to make sure that in this last part of the interview that we have a little bit to talk about your book, How We Practice Therapy Now. We haven’t hit on the elements of the book. Take us through just some of the main points before we land this interview.
Sure. the book is really about how therapy as we know, it has evolved over the years and even more so during COVID. So there’s a lot of space to talk about, teletherapy of course, but also just the virtual nature of therapy. Even post COVID I think teletherapy is here to stay. Many therapists are also navigating into other digital spaces, far more podcasts, as of course, far more use of social media to market, to recruit, but also just provide psychoeducation and provide other kinds of ways of connecting with therapists. But we also talk about race consciousness and social justice oriented therapy and how really be being able to name and speak to and integrate these kinds of issues regardless of client identities, regardless of therapist identities, that these are issues that are present in our world.

Therapy is going to be more wellness oriented. I think mindfulness, we all talk about a whole lot. New generations of folks seeking therapy are accustomed to having a more wellness oriented model of therapy. So it is in our best interest to be trained in how to do that. Then just thinking about ways that therapy is happening outside of the therapy room or even the virtual space, whether that is walking and talking nature based, beach based, for those of us near lakes and rivers and oceans. But also comes therapy and all of those things.

Then finally just always talking about how to navigate these changes ethically and legally. Sometimes our ethics follow us. So there may be these greater spaces in the meantime. So really pausing and thinking about how do we practice a more modern, more transparent and authentic version of therapy in a way that is ethical and culturally attuned and meeting the needs of today’s clients?
It’s interesting to see the shift between, I think people think having that old industrialist mindset of like one and done versus you hear people say everything’s changing so fast. It is, and that’s not going to stop. So the things that we work on with teletherapy, with race relations, with all sorts of different things, it’s not like we’re going to just solve it and then, now my practice is good. It’s like we constantly have this new information. And even just seeing this year, how many of our sponsors are apps that are filling in between therapy sessions even a year ago, the AI wasn’t at a point that it could do the things that these apps are doing now. It’s mind blowing what these apps can do with just AI and it’s only going to continue to change. So for us to say, we’ve got to know how’s therapy right now? You’re going to have to revise your book every year because there’s just so many things, you have nonstop sales.
It’s so true. Thinking about how do we begin to use some of these apps or other kinds of things to help us do our work, after hours, between sessions as an adjunct to the work that we’re doing and not just thinking about the limitations of what they don’t provide or as a substitute for in-person or teletherapy versus what can it provide and where can it fit for my particular clients?
Oftentimes people get so worried about something new that it’s going to just replace the therapeutic relationship. We’ve just seen that not happen. It’s enhanced it and changed it or helped clients get different access that maybe wouldn’t have in the past. So many areas we could continue to dive into. The last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?
Ooh, that’s such a great question. I think I would want everyone to know that one, therapy is changing and it is in our best interests and in our client’s best interests for us to evolve with it. And to not be afraid of that change and that evolution rather to think about how can I do what I do better and how can I meet my needs and my clients’ needs in more efficient and effective ways.
So awesome. Now if people want to connect with you, if they want to read more about your work, I know that you have a free download for our audience. How do they access that? Tell us a little bit about the download and where they can get it.
So you can find me, my website is drdeloach.com. You can find me on social media, Dr. C. Deloach. The download I have is just an excerpt from the book. It’s a checklist on intersectional therapy to just really guide folks through how to be thinking about race conscious and identity conscious and affirming therapy. But if folks want to contact me, they can find me in all of those places.
Awesome. Well, Dr. Deloach, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.
Thank you so much for having me too.
Wow. So much we covered today on the podcast. Just go take some action. Don’t just listen. Go do something with what you’re learning. We’ve got an exciting series coming up for you. Starting next week on the 15th of February, we’re going to be doing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 episodes in a row with Alison, Whitney, and myself all around launching a group practice. So you’re going to want to tune in. It’s going to be great, because we’re going to be talking about why 2022 is a great year to launch a group practice, a step by step guide and how easy it is.

Alison and Whitney then are going to be interviewing folks that have started group practices. Then we’re going to wrap it up with some story time where we each talk a little bit about our own experiences and a bunch of my failures for starting a group practice. So you’re not going to want to miss that. That is going to be over the coming weeks. So three a week, we’re rocking it out there.

As well. We could not do this without Therapy Notes. Therapy Notes makes notes, billing, scheduling, and telehealth a whole lot easier. They have over a thousand verified customer reviews with an average ranking of 4.9 out of five stars. A darn person that didn’t give them a five star pulled it down for everybody. But you can get a free trial where you get three months free use promo code [JOE] at checkout. That helps them know what’s working. When they look at the podcast numbers where they get referrals they know that it actually works for them to sponsor here on the Practice of the Practice podcast. So again, that is over at therapynotes.com use promo code [JOE]. They’ll also help you switch over all data from your old EHR. They’re amazing. Check them out.

Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. We really like it. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.