Andrew Burdette 00:00:00 The grow a Group practice podcast is part of the practice of the Practice Network, a network of podcasts to help you grow, manage and promote your business and yourself. To hear the other podcasts like The Practice of the Practice Podcast, go to practice at the practice.com backslash network. You’re listening to the grow a Group Practice podcast, a podcast focused on helping people start, grow, and scale a group practice. Each week you’ll hear topics that are relevant to group practice owners. I’m Andrew Burdette, a practice owner, and I love to hear from people, their stories, and real life experiences. Let’s get started. Hello and thanks again for tuning into the grower Group Practice podcast. Today I’m here with Nicole Wallace, who’s the founder of Transformation Counseling and Consulting, PLLC, another North Carolina practice out here with me. Different part of the state. So welcome to the show. I know you’ve been connected with the pop community for a while. you and I met at the last killing at camp a couple of years ago. Andrew Burdette 00:01:10 Yeah, and that was a lot of fun. So, yeah, I’ve met you and quite a few other people, and it’s been a really cool experience, kind of seeing how all of us have stayed connected in different ways. So I’ll talk to, like, Melissa down in Florida and then my new admin person’s actually an admin for somebody else from that conference too. so it’s just been fun and actually coming up after this and interviewing Emily from, from that whole thing too. So yeah, it’s just been this kind of we’ve all stayed connected and I guess trauma bonded over all the terrible things that are go into running a business. Nicole Wallace 00:01:45 Great networking opportunity, but also to, like you said, build those bonds in this, this thing we call private practice. Andrew Burdette 00:01:53 Yeah. Yeah. So for listeners out there, if you’re wondering, should I go to a professional conference around business stuff? Yes, because you will make friends that you’ll continually run into and do different things with. So. Welcome to the show. Andrew Burdette 00:02:05 I usually like to ask people to intro themselves a little bit about, you know, how do you how did you end up in business here and now and kind of a little backstory of of how that worked. So, you know, how how did you end up in business solo? Did you plan from group from the start? Nicole Wallace 00:02:21 Yeah, a great question. Yeah. So I started out actually as a school counselor. and that was interesting. And as I grew my own family, I started I took a couple of, breaks from that and got involved in agency work and private practice and actually got my clinical license during one of my maternity breaks. And I realized that I really had a passion for it, that I really enjoyed private practice. and overall, I really wanted to work with women. I’m a mom of multiple, many children, so ranging from 26 to 12. And, I’ve had many different careers. I’m a US Army veteran, now a business owner, and I felt like that was my passion of helping women who also have had, ebbs and flows in their life or taken some breaks in their life to do other things and played many different roles. Nicole Wallace 00:03:20 And we, I think, struggle with anxiety and depression at times and self-identity, self-awareness. And I have really enjoyed learning about that. And so I went into solo practice with the idea that, oh, I’ll just, you know, have this solo practice and I’ll help this group of women, and, everything will just go great. And, as I open the business, more and more referrals started coming my way. Especially for women of color. I identify as Latino and African American. and so I found that a lot of people who look like me, who had backgrounds like me, really wanted to get into therapy during that time in 2020. and I just loved it. So I was like, well, I either got I have to, refer out or I need to build it. And I decided to build it. And in doing that, I started adding on other clinicians. And, we’ve had ebb and flow, but right now there’s six of us who are fully who are licensed. We have a blend of fully licensed and associate clinicians. Nicole Wallace 00:04:34 And then we also have an intern, who makes seven. So we have a admin person as well full time. Andrew Burdette 00:04:42 Got it. And for listeners out there, just to clarify terminology around licensure, since all of our states are different and all of our different disciplines are different. in North Carolina. marriage and family therapists, social workers and counselors. We all have what’s called an associate level. So you can kind of think of it like the apprentice, period. So we all graduate. There’s roughly I think it’s consistent around 3000 hours total for all of our different licenses. But we’re considered licensed but under supervision, which is different than states like, I think, Florida to where you were postmasters, something like an intern or the terminology gets really weird. I kind of was recently going through this with my, liability insurance, adding a social work associate and trying to get that classified correctly. And there’s like five different associate levels for counselors and none for social workers under the CF dropdown. So I was trying to get that status out. Andrew Burdette 00:05:38 Right. But yes. so provisionally licensed I think is a pretty common term for a lot of the country as well. that actually, before we get too far into the things, how is it mixing the provisionally licensed versus fully licensed? Have you run into challenges there? Are you a practice that provides in-house supervision? Are you somebody that outsources that? How do you navigate having licensed licensed clinicians still require supervision? Nicole Wallace 00:06:06 Oh, that’s a good question. So currently I am not do not have a supervisor license. So they all have to outsource for that. And some of them are part time here. So they have supervision at their other full time locations that they work at. And the blend works well though for us across the board. I feel so we I’m fully licensed and then I have another LCM HCPs, clinical mental health, clinician. She’s also fully licensed and then the rest are licensed clinical social work associates. which would be the provisionally licensed that you were just talking about. And it all kind of it goes pretty well. Nicole Wallace 00:06:52 I think it’s a good blend because they bring other assets and resources to the practice that we as clinical counselors might not always know about or have. and that’s been a really good piece for us to have those two blends there. we do I do meet weekly with everyone. So it’s sort of like pho supervision. and so I’m able to keep track of what’s happening with them and how they’re doing with their, progress on their license. but the responsibility of supervising them for their clinical hours doesn’t fall solely on me right now anyway. Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:07:32 Got it. Yeah. We, we have kind of a weekly check out staff meeting thing. We usually just meet up at a local coffee shop. And, you know, this week actually is kind of exciting because everybody on my crew gets to make it. So all five of us will be in one place at the same time. And the rest of my crew gets to meet my new hire. so that’s cool. But there’s other weeks, like last week where everybody’s out of town or doing some other thing. Andrew Burdette 00:07:54 And so some Fridays it works out, some some don’t. cool. Nicole Wallace 00:08:00 So that’s going to be exciting because not all of my staff is here in the Raleigh area. they are spread across this region of North Carolina. So I have, two people in, like the Mebane, Winston-Salem area, one person in Fayetteville. So we have to work to stay connected as well. Andrew Burdette 00:08:19 That sounds like when I got started and Justino worked literally across the country and started in Washington state and then moved to Oregon. And so we were we were doing services from both coasts, basically just in North Carolina. But that put her at an advantage because the three hour time difference meant she she was easy, easy for her to see people at 9:00 our time because of the three hour time difference. And she could still finish by dinnertime for her. Nicole Wallace 00:08:44 That’s good. Andrew Burdette 00:08:45 Yeah. So let’s go back to shifting from solo to group and kind of how that came to be. And so it sounds like you were in the position of, I’ve got more referrals and I can keep up with. Andrew Burdette 00:08:58 So then it’s do I start a waitlist or do I refer out, or do I see if I can bring people onto my team? So when did you make the choice to expand your expand the scope of your practice, and then how did that game plan kind of look at the start versus how did it change over time? Nicole Wallace 00:09:18 Yeah. So I when I, when my caseload became full, I was referring out I had found a couple of other practices in the area that service the same population that I was servicing, but they were also it was a really, volatile time. I mean, I think we’re still in a mental health crisis right now, but during that time of 2020 to 2021, a lot of women especially, were seeking services, especially Bipoc. Women were seeking services around, racial trauma, around dealing with Covid, family concerns. so even my referral sources were drying up. So, I didn’t know what I was doing. I jumped into it, I got I got on, indeed. Nicole Wallace 00:10:06 And, also on LinkedIn and I made a post and some people answered my call. now I’ve been on hiring committees, but hiring for yourself as a whole new game. So my questions to the participants were very generic, very like, oh, if I enjoy having lunch with you, then maybe this will be a good fit. And that’s kind of how I did my first hire. so I’ve had to learn along the way. And one of those things that I learned, because we did lose some staff members within the first 12 months, was that to be really specific about the mission that I was on? the population that we were serving and what did that were the people that I were were was, were interviewing. Were they in step with that was it wasn’t even something they were interested in because some people will take a job and they have no clue or don’t care about the mission you’re on or the population that you want to serve. They’re looking for employment, which is fair, you know. and so I did have to learn to really be specific about this is what I’m trying to do. Nicole Wallace 00:11:19 This is who I’m trying to serve. Where do you see yourself fit in this? And that has helped me tremendously. and then practice at the practice, being involved with the business consultation and the group practice consultations really helped me on focusing on what that look like for me. They gave me questions I had, there were videos to watch and that helped me a lot. Andrew Burdette 00:11:43 So there’s a couple things there. I want people I want to have lunch with culturally, like in my practice, for sure. There’s a lot of people I want to have lunch with I don’t want to work with in my practice, too. And a lot of it does kind of come down to what you’re talking about. Are they is this person interested in working with the same people I want to work with, in the same way I want to work it, and having the same desired outcome around that too. you probably you probably get the the influx of like inquiries, like, you know, usually around this time like May June is when I get a pop of like fresh grads, people that are just coming out of grad school because everyone’s thinking about finishing up in August or something like that, and licensure about just looking for a job. Andrew Burdette 00:12:30 And, also like a big influx of like interns and other things like that. And was just talking to, somebody earlier this week about the logistics of interns. I don’t know if, you know, Leah Webb, that’s like another clinician. And in our state, I think she’s based out in Greenville. But, if you’re on the Facebook groups for our state, she pops up a bunch, because she’s all across the board. So to see Leo pop up. But we were talking about interns and things. but, yeah, there’s having that kind of practice identity just culturally and just mission focused and things I think really does make a big difference because if you’re it comes into so many different areas, like aside from just cultural fit. So if you’re comfortable sharing kind of the feedback, I guess about, hey, maybe this isn’t the best fit as those people departed. Like, was there any insight that was gained because you kind of mentioned people came in and then left and it kind of caused you to rethink mission statement stuff. Andrew Burdette 00:13:27 So how did that how did those departures really change your thinking about practice focus? Nicole Wallace 00:13:33 Well, I think, one of the things is that we were talking about earlier, check in meetings I really talked about, and I learned this in practice, the practice, talking about the end of a relationship when you’re starting a new hire. talking about what would that look like if you were to leave? this is what would happen. How could we have that discussion? Because I feel like the more you are open about that, then the more people will come to you. So I was fortunate that we had had some of those conversations. We had talked about job satisfaction when we did check ins. and I was always on the, focus of, hey, you know, if this is because I’m learning. And I was very upfront about that. This is my first time running a business. This is my first time hiring people for a business that I own. So if you have anything that you’d like to input or if there’s something that’s troubling you, please come to me. Nicole Wallace 00:14:29 and all of the people who left were very like, yeah, Nicole, this is what I really want to do, and you’re not doing that. So I really want to go work with this population. One person who she had, found herself a focus of LGBTQ identity. She was a self exploring herself, and she wanted to vast the clientele she only wanted to work with. Well, well, we had clients who were LGBTQ, but that wasn’t our entire focus. And so she found a practice that fit for her. And I was happy to to say, you know, go and and I hope you find what you need. I had another person who was a mom, and she was having a hard time juggling the work and childcare. And so we had a really candid conversation about maybe right now, private practice is not a good space for you while you’re trying to figure out your childcare care situation. So and I felt like the only way those conversations came about without somebody just, you know, sending me an email saying I quit, was through some candid, upfront conversations throughout the process of the relationship. Nicole Wallace 00:15:35 And, and me being very upfront about this is where the practice is going. This is what who I you know, this is who we’re getting referrals for was also helpful because as you were saying earlier, you do have a lot of people graduating. You get so excited. You’re happy to see them. You want to help them. and I had to look at my marketing as well. So when someone was calling in and they were asking for like they were asking for me, a seasoned therapist, a person who was Bipoc, identifying and maybe not somebody who’s 25 years old and just graduated from grad school. And so I had to look at what does that look like for marketing for us, and how could we maintain the clients that were coming in, but how could we also expand to reach some others? And that was also interesting. Andrew Burdette 00:16:31 So yeah, you know, The marketing piece a couple things. So people that have listened to me do other episodes and I kind of mentioned this before we started recording this one. Andrew Burdette 00:16:41 There’s I’m fortunate enough in Asheville to have this really cool group of group practice owners, and we’re all collaborative. We all do different things in our practices. There’s some overlap, but generally speaking, there’s not a sense of competition. That’s the main thing. So even if there is some overlap in terms of like populations or demographics or other things, the attitude among us is it’s not competitive and 1 or 2 of them is maybe a little more broad and generic on things not like completely unspecific, but whereas some, like my friend Kim runs a she just got calf accredited. So they’re going to do an IOP for ketamine, which is amazing. it’s like she’s she’s groundbreaking, all kinds of really cool things and making that really accessible. And that just happened this week. So again, very, very, very specific there to something that’s maybe just more focused on age groups of things. But it’s been interesting in a year and a half, being a part of that group and hearing because we’ll have some of the same, we definitely get some of the same applicants. Andrew Burdette 00:17:36 Some of us get more applicants than others. And, you know. Nicole Wallace 00:17:41 Rotation. Andrew Burdette 00:17:42 Exactly. Yeah. And there’s there’s been scenarios to where I’ve had people that weren’t happy, where they were out in some other practice in town, and it turns out it was one of these other practices. And, you know, they’re reaching out and they’re like, hey, well, I need more caseload or these other things. I’m like, you need to talk to your boss. Like your trust me, your group owner really wants the best for you. So, if you can’t approach your boss and talk about those kind of things, then. Yeah, leaving probably makes sense. But I’m not going to take you on extra as somebody, you know, that’s just not what I’m going to do. Nicole Wallace 00:18:11 You jumped ship and then. Andrew Burdette 00:18:13 Yeah. Nicole Wallace 00:18:14 And that disconnect in the relationship that you have with the other practice owner. Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:18:18 Right. Or just like you’re going to do that to me eventually too, is kind of what I’m thinking as a business owner. Andrew Burdette 00:18:24 but there’s there’s definitely been scenarios to where somebody started in one of our group practices and then move to one of the other ones because it was a better demographic fit for who that practice targeted and worked with, and then also a better cultural fit around structure. I am a very you structure yourself kind of person. Even after switching to W2, I was told my management style can still remain that way for the most part. and I’m trying to keep that and let people be as independent as possible, but it doesn’t work for everybody. And I’ve had a couple candidates I would really love to have because they would really fit, would add some diversity to my team and some other things, but they’re like, I need more structure. I’m new to this. I don’t want the I want everybody. I want to feel like everybody is in the same building, in the same suite versus hybrid and scattered and kind of thing. And yeah, it’s. Nicole Wallace 00:19:10 A it’s a struggle. I think one of the things that I began to realize was that, although I had a mission which was to serve women who were struggling with anxiety and depression, and I also had begun to come into this passion for working with perinatal mental health concerns, that I might not find somebody with all of that. Nicole Wallace 00:19:31 So I did have to when I did, my search for candidates brought in the aspect of that part. So do you want to work with women then? You know that’s key. Do you want to work with women who are struggling with anxiety and depression? That’s key. Now, do you want to work with women who are having perinatal mental health issues? you know, you may or may not. And so, but are you interested in being trained? Are you open to learning more? That became a key piece for me. and I found that some of the younger people who came on board, you know, they didn’t have that the seasoned therapist that some people were looking for, but they had the motivation to want to take classes. there’s some free trainings out there. So I would put that up front, offer that to them as well. The other thing I did was I created a, ideal client sheet. So once the person was brought on as a new hire, they filled out this Google form where they listed their challenges of people that they thought they could work with and their ideal person. Nicole Wallace 00:20:36 Everything from what that person’s socioeconomic status was, what sort of, social media platforms or jobs that person had as well. And that kind of helped me with my marketing piece as well. So we all then had this transformation counseling consulting. We all had this bond that we wanted to work with women. We wanted to work with women with anxiety, depression. But hey, so-and-so likes to work with college age women. So and so likes to work with, couples and their struggles. And now we can market towards our key person, which is a woman, but we also can serve her family with the couples, with the person who likes to do couples. We can serve her, college age daughter or son? Because, hey, we got some. We have an in-house referral for that, so that’s been a good piece for us. Andrew Burdette 00:21:30 It is one of those I really don’t enjoy marketing. I don’t know that many therapists do. what’s interesting, though, is talking about these cool people that work with my company. Andrew Burdette 00:21:41 That’s exciting. Like, talk about why people on my team are cool and why I hired them, and why I promote them like that. That’s actually kind of fun. I enjoy that, I don’t like talking about marketing myself, but, it is fun to say, hey, I know this. I have this great therapist. They work with this population, you know, particularly this age bracket. And yeah, having people that want to work at different age brackets is really key. I, I work okay with like people under 25. I just, I’m so removed from somebody that’s in that age bracket and like they don’t. Nicole Wallace 00:22:12 Get anything doing with their free time. Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:22:14 Just the way they the way they conceive of the world and engage with it. And especially around like social interactions and stuff, it just it they don’t get any of my like pop culture references at all. So that kind of hurts a little bit too. You don’t get. Nicole Wallace 00:22:25 Any of their Xbox references. Andrew Burdette 00:22:27 No, no, I do like their word source. Andrew Burdette 00:22:29 I think that’s great. Like love the word source. in the fields. I think that one’s a cool way to, But yeah, just outside of that, like, a lot of it, I just don’t connect. So for me, I’ve learned I really prefer somebody. It’s probably like upper 20s to, like, kind of on the low end and then adding another people in my team that are like, hey, I really actually like working with like 18 to to 30 age bracket in particular kind of thing. So it is nice when you’re kind of like, here’s my kind of general avatar. And then a nuance in different variations and different locations in life development, I do. That does seem like it. Yes, it improves. Nicole Wallace 00:23:03 Things here at transformation, and I, I couldn’t see that going in. You know, I was like, I’m looking for me. I’m looking for a candidate, applicant that’s going to come in and just take all this excess off. but I found that one a lot of me, it’s hard to find. Nicole Wallace 00:23:19 You know, I have a couple of of the clinicians that Mira, Mira, my style are in my age group, but for the most part, a lot of them are just beginning their journey in clinical mental health. And so to say, hey, you know, you we have a common interest which is working with women. but you have some other interests and let me help you develop them and let’s see where we can connect our interest. And and still everybody can win. Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:23:48 Yeah. My my practice key things are going to be mindfulness. we really are getting into, like, being a pretty trauma focused practice. So having having a trauma lens is really important actually. Is it as my practice kind of grows and kind of coalesces around an identity thing too. And then people going through like weird spiritual transitions and stuff like that, it’s a big deal to. Nicole Wallace 00:24:09 So trauma is just huge across the board. One of my clinicians, she kept saying, I, we need some sort of trauma help because even though people come in about their household problem or maybe the grief or loss situation, that seems pretty like standard, they were having these traumatic past come up due to their revealing these current issues, and she suggested eMDR, and we were able to get a grant to get everybody in the practice trained on eMDR this past year. Nicole Wallace 00:24:43 and it has just been fabulous through eMDR consulting here in North Carolina. They have a trainer here, and he has just really helped us just carry the practice and come alongside us and worked with us. And, I think it’s so beneficial to so many people. Speaker 3 00:25:00 Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:25:00 So if you’re like, eMDR is awesome. I actually did a eMDR consultation thing yesterday because I’m kind of getting more people on my more people interested in doing that on my caseload again. And it’s been a while, so I figured I’d brush up on it. But, yeah, if what’s the I’m going to write it down now and ask you to share it at the end of the show, but what’s the name of the grant in case other people might be interested for that? Because or or where to go? How did you go about finding a grant for training? That’s probably a better question for the podcast. Nicole Wallace 00:25:29 They actually found me. It was through the North Carolina Small Business Association. unfortunately, it’s a regional grant, I guess, to the Wake County area. Nicole Wallace 00:25:40 So but I would definitely encourage therapists, wherever you are in, listening to this, if you have a small business, administration close to you to tap into that resource because they want to help you. I was at a vending event, I was at event vending, had a table. And, they also had a table. The North Carolina Small Business Association. And the gentleman walked around and was like, I can help you like this. So so he introduced me to the grant, and told me about what I needed to do, and we were able to get it done because eMDR is very expensive training. But I think, as you were saying, a lot of people are asking for it, and it really seems to we’ve seen a lot of improvement with our clients who have had long term trauma, a childhood trauma. And so it has been effective for a lot of the women that we work with at Transformation Counselling. Speaker 3 00:26:35 Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:26:36 Yeah. For listeners out there, the small business, small Business Administration, and actually HR people tend to have local chapters all across the country. Andrew Burdette 00:26:45 I’ve met with up in Asheville. It’s called score. I don’t remember what score stands for as an acronym, but I guess it’s the same out there too. and it’s a bunch of people that have been successful in business that want to share that knowledge with other people looking to be successful in business for themselves. And it’s free and it’s great. I also think it’s really helpful because our field can be really, really isolating in a lot of ways, including how we approach business. And so it’s nothing against therapists that learn some business acumen and then try and help other therapists be successful as business owners. But it’s also, I think, equally helpful to have people that do very vastly different things talk about how to conceptualize a business and talk about how other sectors work, too. I think that’s really important to kind of bring that in. And so that small business administration gives you an opportunity to talk to somebody that maybe did marketing for manufacturing of, you know, rubber gaskets or some really random thing. Nicole Wallace 00:27:40 And yeah, that has been key for me is to for the business aspect of it, to put myself in spaces where I get to meet people who are not just therapists. Nicole Wallace 00:27:50 because as many of us know, most of us did not go to school for that. because even that gentleman from the small business he put me in contact with, Ink Works, which is also across all of North Carolina. And they do this program where if you hire someone, they will pay you back. They will reimburse you there at that person’s pay. If you hire somebody that you’re going to have to train. And I was struggling with the front of the house with having someone, an admin person. And we came into collaboration with NC works. They had some applicants. We chose one. She came on board. She’s college educated, she’s got a bachelor’s degree, in English. And she wanted to learn about mental health. And she has been working in front of our, you know, doing intake for us, doing all the admin behind the scenes stuff. And I was able to get reimbursed her pay for the first three months, which, if anybody knows, that’s a really big thing when you’re, when you’re trying to pay a admin person. Nicole Wallace 00:28:54 So. Andrew Burdette 00:28:55 Well, just onboarding in general is really expensive. Nicole Wallace 00:28:58 Yes. Yeah. So to get that money back after I had to give up the time to onboard her. so that’s another resource if you are in North Carolina, NC works, I know there across the state as well. Andrew Burdette 00:29:10 Yeah. No, I made a note. I’m gonna have to check that out for next. My next non-clinical hire, I guess, when I get to that point. Speaker 3 00:29:16 Yeah. Nicole Wallace 00:29:17 You’ll be there soon, I think, from what you’re saying. The way you’re scaling lately, Andrew. Andrew Burdette 00:29:21 Yeah, I know, so as of the recording of this podcast, my first full time hire is about to go on maternity leave in a week. I have another full time person that started earlier in the spring, and we’re building his caseload. I have a pretty much a quarter time person that works in a really neat sector and has an amazing trauma background, which and she’s she’s amazing. So really fortunate to have her and then just hired another part time person. Andrew Burdette 00:29:44 But the goal the rest of this year is to kind of own around out to probably 4 to 6 full time people in the next 6 to 12 months and then get their caseloads full and be done and have everybody stacked a good ten people on a wait list. That sounds like a great place to be. So, yeah. but on. Nicole Wallace 00:29:59 Your way, it’s exciting. It really is exciting to build and to be able to help other people see their dream come true as well. Yeah. If. Joe Sanok 00:30:14 You’re someone with a vision for your practice, for your side hustle, and for your personal journey. But when it comes to establishing your path and how to get to where you want to be with your practice, things get a little messy. You’re also someone who would prefer to go in person instead of groups listening to everyone else’s story. To me, it sounds like you could benefit from one on one consulting with our experienced practice of the practice consultants from 595 a month and up. You can work with a consultant that will give you more direction and practical, tried and tested tips matched to you and your goals. Joe Sanok 00:30:50 For more information, visit practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. Again, that’s practice of the practice. Com forward slash applied. actors.com/applies. Andrew Burdette 00:31:04 So on the building thing, one of the things you had mentioned as we were kind of pre gaming, this podcast was planning to kind of go from solo to group up to a point within 18 months. And we were talking about and I talked to my consulting clients about this too, about theirs and Alison, who’s one of the original consultants with practice. The practice, long since moved on to other things, was talking about there’s these kind of different tiers, as it are, like where as you scale. So solar plus one’s really easy because you can kind of just duplicate things or isn’t really a lot of coordination that needs to happen. works really well. So you can kind of think of that tier as like, you know, my studio or my one bedroom apartment, and then to kind of move into another person. So it’s you, the owner plus two. Andrew Burdette 00:31:51 Then you need a bigger apartment or a house. And so there’s additional overhead, there’s some fixed costs that are going to be a part of that. The logistics get start to get really complicated, really quick. For anyone that does couples counseling you, you know what I’m talking about, to go from a single person to a pair of people to work with, relationships grow exponentially in a way. so. I kind of moved into the infrastructure that should support between 6 and 10 people about a year and a half ago, and kind of pause to really get my back end and clarity around here’s my group identity and these other things. And so I kind of I don’t regret taking the time to figure that out, but there’s this awareness of like, if you can best afford a four bedroom house with two roommates, you need to get those two roommates in sooner than later. And so otherwise you’re paying more and you have less profitability and overhead or more overhead relative to like revenue or profitability and things. And so you want to talk a little bit about that game plan of pacing, hiring to keep up with your scaling. Nicole Wallace 00:32:52 Yeah. So, yeah, thank you for the reference. So I was on practice of the practice podcast before with Joe. And the name of that one was, I think it was Grow Your Practice in 18 Months. And we talked about how I had done that. I had become from being a solo practitioner. And I think at that time I had four other practitioners working for me. and we were in one office, not a suite. We just all, you know, a little tiny space. we were taking days, in the office. Each one of us had a dedicated day, and then we would work virtually the other days so that everybody had the experience of having in-person and virtual. and I think one of them was just fully virtual. And one of the things that was one of the things that Joe recommended, he was like, you know, you can utilize your office space a lot better if you shared it in a really strategic, structured way. So that’s how we got to the one day a week that each of us would have, because before that, we were kind of sporadically jumping in and out of that one office space. Nicole Wallace 00:33:57 And, you know, as a clinician, that’s hard because sometimes you’re like, just finish the session, you want to do your notes, but somebody else is coming in to use the room and it’s like, oh, no, that’s not going to work. so I did have to start thinking about the future because as you said earlier, if you’re going to do it, if you’re going to grow, if you’re going to scale, especially above 2 or 3 people, then you do need that bigger house. And so I had to start thinking about what did that look like for us, where where were the location be that kind of thing. So about a year in advance, I started looking for the next space. The next week, the office space that we were moving, which would be which is the suite I’m in now. and I started to think about two that if three of us or four of us at the time were sharing one office, well, I could even maximize on that and take that same concept. Nicole Wallace 00:34:46 So we have a three office suite. but we, you know, there’s 2 or 3 people dedicated to each office. Then we rotate out accordingly because a lot of clinicians do don’t want to work primarily, in person anymore. And that’s one of the joys of this business, is that you can do a hybrid type model. so that’s been really great for us to take those lessons from that first 18 months and bump up to this suite level, where we have a lobby now and people come and go, we have a break room, so we get to see each other in between sessions. And, but I had to think that through and really think about the year before. In fact, I rented the suite six months before we announced its opening, and during that six months that I took the time to decorate it, to think about what the structure would be, about how we would offer share, it gave me time to get all the logistics of utilities and all that stuff set up that you need when you’re opening a practice to do advertising for it. Nicole Wallace 00:35:55 so I don’t know. Everybody has that kind of flexibility, but holding both spaces at the same time allowed me to do that. And it was great advertising because I could say we had two locations right at one point. So. So yeah, it was good. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:36:09 Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:36:10 Yeah. I’m doing a similar thing. So right now it’s been one room I saw my original sublet when I started solo, because it’s too cool of a place to give up. So I have Mondays over there all the time, and one of my people, that’s where she spends her Mondays. so. But I have a full time space, and we’ve we’ve absolutely max the usage of that like. And, a friend of mine from grad school who shares a room with another friend is deciding to take a break from working for himself and go work for another company for a bit. And so I’m going to take over his space, which is big enough to do small groups in, which is exciting because everyone’s expressed interest in doing clinical groups, and there’s a group room upstairs and the price is really great. Andrew Burdette 00:36:49 So I was like, well, it’s not all in the same space where it’s not going to bring us all the same roof, but it’s that second location which does make a big difference. This is in another part of town where not everyone in that part of town wants to drive all the way down to the part of town my office is in. I’m. You’re probably watching me shake my head off camera. Just the reasons for, like, not great reasons of why they want to come to my office. Yeah. Just the. It’s it. I’m closer to a hoity toity part of town kind of thing. And so they don’t they don’t, like, need. Nicole Wallace 00:37:19 A vision board around this. Map it all out. Like, what’s going to look like when it’s done? Andrew Burdette 00:37:25 Yeah. So yeah, I think vision board wise it’s it’s excited to have like again cool downstairs lobby. It’s like an old house. So there’s two rooms downstairs. We’re in one of them. it’s a kind of lobby break room area, probably depending on the usage of the other clinical office down there, we might be able to use the common space if we plan things out well, but there’s a lot. Nicole Wallace 00:37:43 Of logistics that go into it when you’re expanding from having one office to, oh, now I have to furnish another location. I need to think about what is that? What is the theme look like for that? Right. Like because you wanted to look nice. where what are the amenities going to be in there? Like we offer snacks and water to, people waiting in the lobby. What’s the aesthetics going to be like? parking situation, like all those things the I even had one day I had a knock on the door and it was the fire marshal. I hadn’t thought about that. Like he showed up and did an inspection, and that was something I didn’t have to deal with before being in a, just a solo office. So lots of little things that come up that if you can give yourself the time to think through, I mean, you’re not going to think of everything, but if you can give yourself that little bit of leeway, it helps. Andrew Burdette 00:38:32 Yeah. The clean slate approach, especially if you’re looking for more than a single room somewhere, it gets expensive really fast. Andrew Burdette 00:38:37 Like I’ve got friends that have done pretty significant build outs in their spaces to make it work for what their needs are. you know, but they’re in like a, they’re building out a ten office floor of a building, kind of, you know, that’s a little more next. Nicole Wallace 00:38:52 Next time. I’m ready for that. One of the things I did find helpful, though, for building unity within the practice was, the clinicians I provided, like the base level, you know, the the couch, the desk, the chair. And then I offered it to them once they figured out which office they were sharing and with who. Once we got that set. was to bring your own decorations because even though it’s a shared space and even though, it’s, you know, you’re they’re not there every day, that they could still make it their own. And I think that matters a lot to us as clinicians. If a lot of times we do like to have that thing that we use or that game and or maybe there’s some I have one clinician she’s big on, like, wall art and that kind of thing. Nicole Wallace 00:39:37 And mirrors work. She does mirror work with her clients. And so she brought in those aspects into the space, and they really did a good job blending with what I already had. But it also gave them ownership and made them feel like this was a place They all say, oh, this I feel at home here and I really enjoy that I can bring my things. Speaker 3 00:39:57 So yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:39:59 Yeah, my current, my current space is definitely a reflection of me and my style and that’s fine and everybody’s been cool with it. But this next one, next one is going to be much more of a like collectively created space. That’s kind of what I would like for it. I mean, sure, I’ve got art sitting in a room to like, hang up on the wall and stuff, but it doesn’t fit with the vibe people want to create in there. Then I want it to be more of their space. Is really it? Speaker 3 00:40:22 Yeah. Nicole Wallace 00:40:23 Just trying to build that culture. You know? I think it comes back to what we were talking about again, about practice, identity. Nicole Wallace 00:40:29 Like I have a vision. Transformation counseling and consulting serves women who have anxiety and depression. However, if I’m going to incorporate these other team members, then I also have to be willing to listen to their vision, help them see how we can collaborate, see how our visions can grow together, especially if I want them there for the long term and not just turning over people. as they grow, become better at being clinicians, and then they find, you know, another place where they can work. But, but I want them to stay, and I want them to enjoy it, and I want them to feel like the their mission, their idea is within our organization as well. And so doing things like, talking about who their ideal client is and how does that fit with our ideal client as broadly within our mission statement at Transformation Counseling, what is it you like to see in your office space? How do you like to see it decorated? What do you use with your clients that’s really specific to your clients? but But yet I’m still keeping my color theme still. Nicole Wallace 00:41:31 So because they know I love you, see the orange behind me? So yeah. So having that fit and and having people feel comfortable enough to be candid with you, share stuff with you. even around decorating, I had like some pillows or something in one of the rooms that the clinician who’s working in there was like, Nicole, this gotta go. I hate these pillows. Speaker 3 00:41:55 Okay, pillows are gone. Nicole Wallace 00:41:56 You still come to work though, right? Yeah. Speaker 3 00:41:59 Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:42:01 Yeah. For those listening out there, I haven’t my partner Trish, who you met in Cancun, kind of does like, very limited part time, like, operations and HR stuff. So she built out my job posting based on some training she did around from the physical therapy world and the perspective of the person that kind of recommended our process was or ours is modeled after was. Have a really long, detailed job description because people will self-select out a lot of that kind of stuff. And then at the bottom, and it’s surprising how many people don’t follow directions. Andrew Burdette 00:42:32 It’s like, send an email with this in quotes. You literally just copy and paste the title of the email and then send it and then attach your resume. And then that kind of unlocks the second part of questionnaires. And it’s got things like, you know, ideal clients. Are you looking to work with certain demographics? And, are there clients who find it really challenging to work with, you know, those types of questions and kind of have that come in. Speaker 3 00:42:55 At the same. Nicole Wallace 00:42:56 Thing that’s on my Google form then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:42:59 You probably have a similar it sounds like you and I have similar things. We have a Google form too that has a lot of that on there. And you know, it probably takes an applicant half an hour to an hour. There’s some fun stuff you can do to. So I have my people applicants, make a playlist of 15 to 25 of like your top songs or whatever to just see. And so I get these fun Spotify playlists, and it’s been fun to learn. Andrew Burdette 00:43:21 Some like new music. It’s like if you go if you go to a coffee shop, what do you order? Like, so you can you can kind of have some fun little. Speaker 3 00:43:28 Things in there That’s on the question there I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:43:31 So yeah. Like it’s just it’s it’s a little it’s kind of an icebreaker thing. It kind of says I care more about than just your job skills to the the applicant. It’s an opportunity like everyone so far that’s done that part of things like I really enjoy doing the music thing. That was a lot of fun. So, yeah, just a little insight and little, you know, as you’re going to interview them, if you if you proceed that far, it’s some conversational things and even the applicants because my volume of applicants is still low enough I can send something. It’s like, thank you, but we’re going to pass or thank you. Maybe this other practice might be a better fit. it’s nice to kind of just say, hey, and your playlist is really cool. Andrew Burdette 00:44:08 And this particular song, I’d forgotten about it. Or, like, my newest hire, all of her stuff’s like, straight up 90. I’m like you. You’re gonna fit in really well here. This is like, you know me in high school kind of thing. Speaker 3 00:44:18 Yeah, it. Nicole Wallace 00:44:19 Gives you a chance to really learn about them and for them to learn about you. It sounds like as well. Yeah. And I found that that’s helpful to, for them to know a bit about me and how I even got to this space where I wanted to work with women, especially since many of them, the, the provisionally licensed, they haven’t had a lot of experience outside of their initial training. And so, I think I’m a model for them in many respects. As the practice owner, you’re modeling what it looks like to be really clear about who you want to help to define that. And I feel like I have grown into that as I built the practice. You know, I do. I want to work with women. Nicole Wallace 00:44:56 I want to work women, anxiety, depression. But then I was like, oh, you know, I really enjoy this perinatal mental health work. And I went and got a certification around it and joined Postpartum Support International. And and now I’m able to talk about that. And so maybe all of my clinicians don’t embrace all of that the way I have, but I think I’m a model for what it looks like to be able to find your passion in this field and work towards it. And if I can be of assistance to them and especially all of, the intake forms. You know, when I’m doing applicants. We do the same thing you just talked about. Who do you want to work with? Do you have an interest in working with women? What is your past experience working with people who identify as women? Are you, you know, are you open to that? And and what would you like to see happen? And so that’s been really good for us. And I think it’s big on how you build your identity as a practice. Andrew Burdette 00:45:54 Yeah. And it also kind of sets up, especially if you’re like me and having the more fun questions of like, what do you order from your barista? It’s like it’s it’s trying to like, trying to communicate like I’m accessible, like. Speaker 3 00:46:08 Yes. Andrew Burdette 00:46:09 Talk to me. Like, let’s have that. And usually if I’m if I have somebody I’m interested in, we’ll go sit somewhere for coffee or grab a bite to eat or something and just kind of have a more casual interview. And if it seems they’re already kind of in a final selection phase at that point anyway, but then we’ll kind of talk a little bit more and see if logistics work and stuff. But yeah, again, going back to your point of like trying to communicate on the front end when this ends, if it does, what does that look like and how to, you know, already planning for that departure. You know, even if it’s going to be years down the road. I think that really matters too, because there are those people that are going to rage quit, and you’re going to have those people and they don’t communicate well. Andrew Burdette 00:46:47 And if you’re on your end and kind of making it, you know, my door’s open, let’s talk about it. different people kind of have different things pop up on the side. And so it’s like, you know, I’m nervous to tell you. I’m like, that’s fine, but what do you need? Like, whichever direction you go, I am good, but let’s just talk about it. So it’s not just weird. So we don’t end up with that passive aggressive communication style of like, well, I sat on this and didn’t say anything and now it’s urgent and now it’s a crisis and here’s a bomb. Speaker 3 00:47:14 But yeah. Nicole Wallace 00:47:14 And then if we were I think we were talking about it a bit before we started the interview about how in some communities, even it’s small or a lot of people practice, owners might know each other. And so you want to keep good relationships, right? You want to continue to network with each other. You want to continue to see that person when as well if. Nicole Wallace 00:47:34 And so the best if you can separate if you’re having to let someone go or if they decide to leave, you want to be able to do it on a good note so that, things go well across the board and that clients are still continue to be served and clients continue to be given quality service. Speaker 3 00:47:53 Yeah, Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:47:54 I would rather. And this is what I told Justine when we got started. I was like, you know, my my focus is the quality of our relationship. So if I’m not good for being someone running a group practice, please tell me, because my friendship matters more than that, you know? And so it’s been really good. I know there’s different schools of thought on hiring your friends or not hiring your friends and stuff, and just our relationship has been has Has continued to be really good with that communication dynamic of things too. And just how can I best support you? Or here’s what I need or, you know, these kind of things in that back and forth and trying to foster that and even to that point of not being a fit in everybody’s practice or, you know, having people that are kind of I’m unsure about what’s going on in this group practice. Andrew Burdette 00:48:37 Is this right? Is another practice owner. I think one of the things I wasn’t planning on as part of this role as a group owner, as being a resource for other people working for others in our field as a resource of like, you know, is this is this an okay place to be? Is this normal? Should I be concerned like. Speaker 3 00:48:55 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I. Nicole Wallace 00:48:57 Get those questions sometimes too. And then that could be a challenge to answer. Especially there’s some interesting setups going on there, especially around contract work, which we don’t do. Everyone here is W2 employed. but yeah, there’s some interesting dynamics out there these days. And so being able to have some conversations and give people some other points of view about how they, how they can work in mental health. Speaker 3 00:49:24 Is. Nicole Wallace 00:49:24 Interesting. But having those I, I love the idea which you said about, meeting with a collaborative group of group practice owners. I recently joined one myself locally here in the Raleigh, North Carolina area, and all of us are women owning group practices within the Wake County area. Nicole Wallace 00:49:43 And it has really been beneficial to kind of sit down, talk about the challenges that we have. we’ve even been able to collaborate on some things. Last, a couple of months ago, we did the National Alliance of Mental Health walk, and we all got together as group practice owners and did it together, which was pretty cool to be able to spend some time with people who aren’t always in your office or, you know, on your payroll. So pretty, pretty nice. Andrew Burdette 00:50:10 We all we planned a party like there’s a board game kind of place up here where you can just go rent and play board games kind of thing. So we we threw all ten of us, threw a party for like anybody that wanted to come. So it just had a big mixture between all our group practices and stuff. So I mean, that’s that’s the dynamic of the crowd. I’m in about it being really collaborative or like, yeah, let’s show people. So we did that and it was a lot of fun. Andrew Burdette 00:50:33 but yeah, just having having that support group of peers in a field that’s already isolating. And then because you’ve kind of elevated your status because you’re an employer or supervisor or these other things that your peer group shrinks drastically there and people kind of approach you differently. It’s like, oh, you could give me a job. I’m like, I could, but I’m off the clock and I’m here to just hang out. So like, you know, whatever. But just having that group of people to kind of talk to you like it’s stressful if you need to, like, terminate somebody or have a conversation about things. I think everybody in our group did almost Almost everybody did the 1092 switch in the past year or so. So as I’ve kind of been one of the later people doing that, it’s been nice having that. Oh yeah. It took that person six months to get their like kind of pay structure ironed out with the kinks and, and things. but just that having that peer support group has been really helpful. Andrew Burdette 00:51:23 So if you’re out there and have other group owners and that you can network with, I think that’s a huge support thing for us in our field too. Nicole Wallace 00:51:31 Yeah, and having people to bounce those ideas off of and giving yourself some grace, you know, you’re going to evolve as a group practice owner. It won’t look like it did when you first opened the doors. I I’m a testament to that all day like you. And it’s okay if your vision changes a bit, and especially as you bring in other people. It’s just like, I think you made the analogy of growing your family or adding to a roommate situation. As you gain more folks and they have things that are assets, then your vision, it may need to change a little bit and you just might need to expand. But if you’re able just to give that service, to continue to give quality service, continue to feel fulfilled in the job, that for me, that’s the best ever. And I feel like we’ve reached a bit of that. Nicole Wallace 00:52:20 I still got more to go. I still want to be. I want to scale up. I want to at least, my goal is to have 15, at least 15 clinicians here in North Carolina. And then I also have my South Carolina license now. And I really want to open a space there for women as well. So I’m excited to see what the next part of this is. as long as I don’t get too tired trying to balance it all. Andrew Burdette 00:52:45 Yeah, that’s the thing. We could do episodes on delegating and outsourcing and those other things. It kind of, You know, you go from that kind of studio apartment as a solo to, like, a couple bedroom apartment to like a house, to like an apartment building and the infrastructure. So, yeah, for you to go your level to 15, you’re going to need probably a practice manager or clinical director type person and somebody. So you can just be the visionary and oversee all of it. And you know, you really would be working on the business pretty much exclusively, exclusively at that 15 size. Speaker 3 00:53:19 Yes, I. Nicole Wallace 00:53:19 Would I would really enjoy that if that. That’s the vision. Yeah. And I’m trying to I really encouraging in-house. Right. I want to if I can if I need to find a case manager I’m hoping that that person is right here on staff already. and that would be awesome. If not, you know, we could think outside the box. But, to look within what I already have and and grow. So, yeah, maybe next year, 18 months, I’ll be back and you can. Speaker 3 00:53:45 Tell me. Andrew Burdette 00:53:47 How it went from a moderate sized group practice to a mega practice. Right. And took over the whole state. Speaker 3 00:53:54 Yeah. Nicole Wallace 00:53:54 Well thank you. Speaker 3 00:53:56 Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:53:56 Well, so for for the listeners out there, do you have any like key takeaways you want to make sure that they hear? I know we’ve talked to a range of different things, but I think a lot of it does come back to that. The importance of having a group identity and kind of a mission around that. Andrew Burdette 00:54:11 So any final thoughts on that or summary? Speaker 3 00:54:13 Yeah, I would. Nicole Wallace 00:54:14 Say, define your your identity at one as your own practice of your own as a solo practitioner first. Right. who who do you enjoy servicing? And then if you’d like to build your practice around that, that’s key. And then if you can find employees who enjoy even servicing that same population or, can parallel with you around that. So if you enjoy working with women and maybe you need another practitioner who enjoys working with men to offshoot spouses and things like that, then, keep your vision open. Allow it to evolve. Give yourself that space to see where it can go. but really writing down your mission, focusing on it and sharing it with people that you hire. Don’t let don’t take on new hires and not have communicated that. Because if you don’t, then that’s when you run into, the issues around. Well, I didn’t know that that was the this is the identity of this practice because because marketing works around your identity, culture of your business works around whatever your group practice identity is. Nicole Wallace 00:55:24 So the more you can define that, the more you can collaborate with your employees around. That is going to help your practice. Andrew Burdette 00:55:32 Yeah, maybe a friend of mine up here says, don’t be the Applebee’s of therapy. Have a Nash is kind of what he talks about in terms of identifying avatars. And there’s really only one Cheesecake Factory that can say we have everything on the menu, even stuff you can’t imagine. Speaker 3 00:55:45 That’s true. Andrew Burdette 00:55:46 Yeah, that’s really their that’s their marketing ploy, because their menus the size of a phone book, everybody else is just a copycat and it’s not really going to work. Right. Like, you know, it’s fine to have a wide range of things like Denny’s, but they’re known as kind of a diner, right? Or like IHOP kind of kind of known for breakfast stuff. but yeah, it’s it’s much easier to market tacos than it is everything. Speaker 3 00:56:09 yeah, yeah. Nicole Wallace 00:56:10 And to be able to say, that we also can service this over here, but this is what we do really well. Nicole Wallace 00:56:18 And so even with taking on the eMDR, you know, we work with trauma, but we work with trauma in this area of helping women really well. And so we do get other people, you know, we have male clients, we have kids. But if you’re looking for working with women, anxiety, depression and perinatal issues, then transformation counseling does that really well. And, we’re excited to see where that goes. And I would I would say to other group practice owners, find out what you do really well, you know, hire people who also want to enjoy that same thing. And it will take you to places that you probably never thought you’d be like, I am. I thought I was going to be a solo practitioner, and here we are, you know, three years later and the practice has grown significantly. I’m in a suite, I have a full time assistant, and I got to meet great people like you, Andrew, along the way. So it’s. Speaker 3 00:57:12 Good. No. Andrew Burdette 00:57:12 It’s been I’m going to blame pop in next little practice for convincing me to switch over to a group practice. So so far, no regrets on that. But it’s just been it’s been kind of this interesting trajectory to through being affiliated here and meeting really cool people. So, yeah, like I said, right after this, interviewing somebody else that you and I both met at that same conference. So that’ll be kind of fun. Speaker 3 00:57:33 Yeah. I can’t wait to. Nicole Wallace 00:57:34 Listen to all these episodes of friends from Cancun. Andrew Burdette 00:57:37 I know I’m slowly just kind of running down the list, it seems like. Speaker 3 00:57:41 I mean, like, what are they doing now? Nicole Wallace 00:57:44 We’re gonna have to have a reunion trip. Andrew Burdette 00:57:46 I know, but maybe. Maybe not where we went before, so. Speaker 3 00:57:48 No, no no no. Nicole Wallace 00:57:50 New place, new place. Speaker 3 00:57:51 Yes. Andrew Burdette 00:57:53 Well, cool. Well, thanks so much for being on. I hope you have a great rest of your Friday and everything. And it’s been a pleasure getting to touch base again and and live in person. Speaker 3 00:58:01 So yeah. Nicole Wallace 00:58:03 Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Andrew Burdette 00:58:05 All right. Thanks again and talk to you soon. Bye bye. If you love this podcast, please be sure to rate and review. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guest are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or any other professional information. If you want professional, you should find one.