• Visit Alma and connect with Elisabeth on LinkedIn.
• Visit Upheal and connect with Ted on LinkedIn.

Joe Sanok 00:00:00  Every single phase of private practice has its own unique challenges and its own unique opportunities. Whether you’re starting and growing a solo practice, getting a group practice going, whether you’re already a group practice boss or you want to go big and go national with the skills you have, every phase has its challenges. And, you know, doing that in community with people and learning from other folks and having that guidance is so, so important. That’s why we have a membership community for every phase of practice. Next level practice is for solo practitioners to help you get organized, fill up your practice, and get that solo practice rocking. We have small groups, we have accountability partners. We have live events every single week. And also if in the first three months and the first 90 days, you’re not satisfied, we have a 90 day money back guarantee. Next we have group practice launch. Group practice launch is a six month program specifically for you to launch a group practice. We have weekly meetings with that as well as well as guided courses, and you get full access to next level practice, and you’re guaranteed to hire someone in the first six months, or you get to go through it again for free.

Joe Sanok 00:01:13  Next we have group practice boss. Group practice boss is for people that have group practices and want to continue to grow. All those ups and downs of having a group practice of changing that mindset, being in community with other people and getting that support from us. We with that as well, have weekly meetings and you get to come to next level practice events as well. So that’s eight meetings a month that you could come to live to get extra help. Also, there’s a 90 day money back guarantee. Lastly, we have audience building Academy. Audience building Academy is specifically for people that are ready to level up and go national. Maybe you want to get a traditionally published book. I have a podcast launch, some products and courses, and scalable income. Audience building Academy is specifically for you so that you can level up and go national. We’ll walk you through exactly how you go from having a solo or a group practice to going national. We’ll help you build your email list, get on podcasts, and really level up.

Joe Sanok 00:02:13  So no matter what your phase is, we have a membership community for you over at practice of the practice. Com forward slash memberships. You can read all about them and sign up. Go in there and decide which membership phase is for you and join today. Again that’s practice of the practice. Com forward slash memberships. This is the practice of the practice podcast with Joe Sarna session number 152. I’m Joe Santa, your host. And welcome to the practice of the Practice Podcast where we help you build a thriving private practice you absolutely love. And, I’m not sure if I’m alone in this, but when I think of thriving and absolutely loving a practice, neither of those point to writing compliant progress notes. I don’t think about thriving. I don’t think about love. It’s like progress notes for so many of us are just like the bane of our existence. It’s like we went into counseling to talk to people, to help people, and then we’re going to spend this time writing it down. And it’s one of those things that comes up over and over.

Joe Sanok 00:03:26  As you know, we label it like a necessary evil. We say, oh, my staff are behind on progress notes. It’s just one of these things that there are now so many tools and ways to do good quality progress notes without it sucking a ton, without it just sucking, but without it sucking a ton of time and energy away from us. and that’s why I’m super excited today to have our guests. we’ve got Ted and Elizabeth, with us today, and I’ve got their bios. They’ve both been a part of this community for a while. I’m going to actually let each of them tell a little bit about themselves before we dive in. Instead of me just reading about how they, you know, work at alma and work at uphill. But when I hear them, just share a little bit about themselves. So, Elizabeth, welcome to the show. We’d love to hear a little bit about you.

Elizabeth Morris 00:04:12  Thank you. I’m such a delight to be here. my name is Elizabeth Morris. I am a licensed psychologist practicing in the Boston area, and I also am VP of clinical for Alma Alma’s, a company that supports about 24,000 behavioral health providers in private practice and, you know, have had a longstanding interest in how we can use behavioral health technology to make our lives as clinicians easier and to make the work we do more effective.

Elizabeth Morris 00:04:45  So, you know, it’s always important to me to think about how we can make sure that we are demonstrating the quality of the work we do, and we typically do that at least with insurance companies through our documentation. but also ways that we can do that in new ways that will make our lives easier and potentially even contribute to the quality of the clinical care we provide. So, that’s a little bit about me. And happy to turn it over to Ted, who’s been one of the partners on this journey that I’ve had the opportunity to work with.

Joe Sanok 00:05:23  Yeah. Ted. welcome.

Ted Phaneuf 00:05:25  Thank you so much, Joe. It’s great to be back on the podcast with you. And thanks, Elizabeth. yeah. So my name is Ted Phaneuf. I’m the head of clinical operations at uphill. And uphill is an AI assisted documentation platform. And really, what our our mission is, is to help mental health professionals find better balance. And and by using AI to, you know, automate tasks like documentation and capture insights and, track outcomes for healthier clients and overall with the mission of reducing administrative burden on therapists because, you know, I believe in appeal.

Ted Phaneuf 00:05:59  The company believes that if we have, you know, therapists who are less burnout, then this really contributes to wonderful quality of care because the attention is able to be, you know, provided to the to the client and not spent so much on. Well, how much documentation do I have to do? At the end of the day, with all of these sessions, you can really maintain your focus on what you’re doing. So, I’m a practicing licensed clinical social worker, and in four states, I’m actually a provider on the Alma platform myself. So I get the benefit to of of some of these tools that Elizabeth is talking about. And just really excited to, to talk about all things compliance and I today.

Joe Sanok 00:06:34  Yeah. You know, it’s funny because it’s like both your companies were sponsors last in 2024. the practice practice of the practice podcast. And, it kind of feels like when you have like, two best friends that end up getting married and you’re, like, really excited for like their new relationship.

Joe Sanok 00:06:51  Like the fact that you guys are collaborating on this stuff. It’s just like, oh my gosh, like, these two really cool companies that are doing good work are like collaborating. I’m like, I love it. It’s like that, that networker or like connector in me. I just love it. It makes me so happy. So, so you’re.

Ted Phaneuf 00:07:06  You’re shipping us, Joe, is what you’re saying?

Joe Sanok 00:07:08  Yes, yes. Well, so we were just talking before, before we got rolling. and I was sharing how. And Ted, you jumped in before we were recording. I’m like, stop. This is awesome. this morning, you know, I had a break in my schedule. I had some time that I could just play, which, you know, sometimes I just do dishes and, like, catch up on housework. But I decided, you know, I’m going to play with ChatGPT a little bit. And, I’ve been working on our pre consulting flow is that, you know, most people will talk to me and decide which consultant they need to work with, but there’s people that, you know, they’re ready to go.

Joe Sanok 00:07:41  this happened last week. There was a guy that he had talked to me like six months ago. He texted me. He’s like, I’m ready. Just send me the link to sign up. Like, doesn’t need to talk to me at all. And so I was like, how do I make like a chat bot that can kind of think like Joe, talk like Joe, kind of have the sales acumen like Joe. also have that compassionate side to like, what are things that I do that kind of intuitively even just saying, like if someone said, my practice is in Denver, I’d be like, oh my gosh, I love the Rei there. That’s amazing. Like other local things that kind of emotionally connect with the person. So I was playing with this and pretty amazed by just how quickly it learned. And Ted, you started you had a bunch of thoughts on this right away. So I just want to start with, like when you hear that, when you hear, I like what what makes you geek out a little bit?

Ted Phaneuf 00:08:23  I think I think there’s there’s a couple things that make me geek out about it.

Ted Phaneuf 00:08:26  But I think the point one of the points that I wanted to make, earlier was that, you know, I think one of the benefits of, like the traditional models of AI, like ChatGPT and things like that are they point out exactly what you were talking about, where you can feed it a little bit of information, and it can kind of make all these synthesized connections and recommendations and different things of that nature, which I think is super helpful from an efficiency perspective from from a practice owner. but I think that, you know, as it relates to the AI and the use of documentation and things of that nature, I think a misconception that a lot of therapists might have is that all of this information that you feed into, you know, a model like ChatGPT or things like that, that it’s going to, you know, continue to inform and build a model, ultimately, what people are concerned about, Joe and I know this wasn’t exactly where you were going, but, they were they’re concerned that, you know, the model is going to replace therapists and create this sort of, you know, kind of, robo rebellion, as I like to call it.

Ted Phaneuf 00:09:24  But I think one of the important things about this type of AI that’s that we’re talking about here is that, you know, this is really why it’s important for the model creation to be clinician led. And we can kind of talk about this more in depth if you want to later, but really to be clinician led because, you know, in our platform at least an uphill, you know, the data is automatically not shared to inform the model, but I think that, you know, the richness that you’re sort of describing in the in the capabilities of an AI platform. you know, to make those connections and things like that from learning, you know, kind of the continuous learning process that does occur. But I think that you get the benefit more of the synthesized, synthesized version of all of the components that are coming in from a client session. and the AI really is trained to work on that, right? On that specific sort of idea that it takes all the information in and it makes the the synthesized components and breaks it down into all of the different headings and subheadings of the note for, for a client.

Ted Phaneuf 00:10:21  So that’s, that’s where I was really excited about. I think it’s just there’s two different ways you can approach this, right. You can have models that really learn from each other and continue to build and build and build. Or you can have a model that’s that is sort of self-contained, that is built by clinicians and shaped by clinicians, to really, you know, give it the best outcomes.

Joe Sanok 00:10:41  Yeah. And I think there’s so much around I that to me I almost see it, at least where it is now in regards to that worry of it replacing the clinician as being like a really good self-help book that can help a client be prepped, maybe work on things between sessions instead of contacting the therapists, like, you know, even my partner and I. So we’ve been walking through and talking about potentially like moving in together. We’ve been together three years. I have kids, she doesn’t. That’s a big decision to go for her from, you know, just living with a dog in a quiet cabin on the water to like, joining the chaos of raising two daughters.

Joe Sanok 00:11:16  and so, you know, I, I had ChatGPT I said, you know, I want you to think like a Gottman certified therapist first. I’m going to test you on that. Like, you know, ask the questions like, what is the positive to negative ratio that the captains recommend and like try to like make sure like kind of thought like that. And I said I want you to think through like 5 to 10 questions to ask me and to ask Claire to then come together and say, here’s an activity I want you guys to do to have a conversation. And so it, you know, walks through like what is, you know, shared purpose mean, you know, what’s financial, you know, look like for you guys, what are your biggest worries? And I kind of interviewed both of us and then said, here’s three activities for you guys to do on a date night. And it was awesome. It was great. It was positive. But we still were left lacking and still go see a therapist to talk through all the nuances of it.

Joe Sanok 00:12:01  But I think we come with a different emotional intelligence as a couple because we’re doing these sorts of things. I’m wondering, like, as you see therapists starting to use AI more, whether it’s through progress notes, and then I’m Elizabeth, I’m going to come to you. I have some questions too. But Ted, like what? What are other just ways that you see therapists embracing AI that you think is helping the field overall, even though I know we’re talking progress notes, it may be outside of progress notes, too.

Ted Phaneuf 00:12:27  Oh, goodness. ultimately, you know, there are so many different ways that, you know, therapists can actually utilize technology to make their lives more efficient. I see it obviously with with appeal and the use of documentation, you know, efficiencies and things like that. But, you know, I’ve seen all these different platforms that are coming out to for content, you know, basically learning your style as a therapist and the way that you talk and communicate and allowing it to spit out, you know, content ideas and in some cases, writing articles for you, or creating even, you know, digitized, videos of concepts that you want to communicate.

Ted Phaneuf 00:13:08  from a clinical sense and, even, you know, going so far as, like creating AI generated headshots and different things like that, just to take out a lot of, a lot of administrative load. ultimately, where I see AI being the best use for therapists is whatever you can do to reduce cognitive load, right. when you have so much that you’re trying to do to keep a practice going or, you know, to get clients in the door, if there’s anything that you can automate with the use of AI, you know, to reduce your cognitive load so that really the the purpose is really on you focusing on the good clinical care you want to give. You know, that’s where I see people mostly using it.

Joe Sanok 00:13:50  Yeah. Elizabeth, tell me when it comes to progress notes when it comes to documentation, first let’s start with why people tend to hate it, why they do it wrong like all the the bad side of it. And then maybe we can dig into what the alternatives are.

Joe Sanok 00:14:05  what do you see when it comes to just the frustrating side of progress notes?

Elizabeth Morris 00:14:10  Yeah, it’s interesting because we recently did some research at Alma on our membership and found that about 93% of the people we interviewed or talked to our anxious about progress notes and whether or not they would be deemed compliant in an audit. And the reality is that rates of audit have really increased over the past year or so, and the reasons behind that are probably somewhat complicated. But what that means is that I think many therapists are practicing with this kind of mild fear in the back of their head, that their notes, their progress notes will not be adequate to support the, you know, and really demonstrate the quality of the services that they’re providing. and so, you know, documentation is a source of anxiety for clinicians. And we really think a lot about, okay, yes, we want to maybe make this less of a chore, and provide tools that will just make the process go more quickly or be reduced that cognitive load so that people know exactly which ingredients are required in order to pass an audit.

Elizabeth Morris 00:15:29  But for me, as a clinician, a huge piece of this is, okay, what if these notes that we all have a probably not even a love hate, but a hate hate relationship with what if we could think about them in ways that would make them meaningful to our clinical process? Actually useful tools that help guide the choices we make from intake through discharge? Because I think when we can utilize our work in service of our clients, it has a different kind of meaning than things that we do, because we know we need to provide the right information to an insurance company, right, or have on file in case of a lawsuit. So a big piece of the work that I’m doing is thinking about how can we help clinicians both understand the key ingredients and also how they can combine those key ingredients in a way that will actually bring value and meaning to their clinical work.

Joe Sanok 00:16:30  Yeah. And tell me a little bit about how like I is helping with some of that from your perspective.

Elizabeth Morris 00:16:36  It’s you know, what has been most amazing to me about using AI? And I’ve been using AI documentation tools, appeals specifically for about a year and a half now.

Elizabeth Morris 00:16:49  and I was really resonating with what you said earlier, Joe, about capturing, you know, how can how can you help this tool sound like Joe sounds? and for me, when I looked at the different AI tools on the market that would support me and my documentation, I really wanted to find a tool that would speak in my voice. because, you know, part of of what I need when it comes to my documentation is, is a tool that captures insights accurately and in a very kind of focused way. that are connected to the journey that I am on with my clients and what is really amazing when when this works the way it should, is that, you know, I couldn’t possibly track all of the threads or all of the themes across a 53 minute hour, and it would probably be very hard for me to connect those threads to, you know, the five sessions prior. But using AI that is able to kind of collect all of that data and synthesize it into its kind of core components.

Elizabeth Morris 00:18:04  it brings a level of clarity around what it is that you are doing. And, and to me, having that clarity acts as a sort of bridge between sessions where, you know, again, I can have the 3 or 4 key points, the key targets from a session. And having that clarity gives me a really good sense of where I need to pick up in the next session. So I often think about my documentation using AI as really, you know, being able to connect the dots or connect the thread from session to session around the most critical and probably impactful, processes of change that I am targeting in the work. So in addition to just reducing the amount of time it takes me to write a note from, you know, 10 to 15 minutes to 2 to 3 minutes, I think it also gives me really powerful clinical insights that will actually inform the decisions I make. But, from one session to the next, you know, about both the targets of my interventions and then which interventions I might want to be using.

Joe Sanok 00:19:17  now.

Joe Sanok 00:19:18  Now, Ted, a lot of the worry about AI, especially when it comes to note taking, and I know we covered this some of this in the previous episode, which I’ll definitely direct people to. it is if you have something that’s listening in on your sessions, like, you know, you hear about all these data breaches across the board, with all sorts of different companies. you know, who’s to say that the AI that we use isn’t going to somehow leak with some of the most sensitive things someone could ever be saying, you know, within a counseling session. how do you think through that? And how do companies like yours mitigate that danger?

Ted Phaneuf 00:19:55  It’s a great question. What I like to tell people is that, you know, the platform that I work for, uphill, you know, they designed the our entire product around data and security first. so appeals to SOC to type two compliant, HIPAA compliant, GDPR compliant. We’ve got all the compliance right behind our names, because it was important for us to be able to instill confidence in people that the data that was going into our system was going to be protected.

Ted Phaneuf 00:20:24  as good as, if not better than the EHR that they were going to take that information and then put it into. Right. So we built our our systems around data and privacy. first. And so I like to just point that out, because when you guys are, when you’re utilizing a platform or when you’re looking for a platform for AI assisted documentation, you really should be looking first at those data and privacy components. because they are they are important. And a lot of people sort of bring up data and privacy. But then, you know, I, I’ve seen many people kind of turn around and say, oh, and I put all this information, you know, the session information into ChatGPT and that’s free. And it spit out a really great, you know, note for me. And I’m like, well, that’s actually where you don’t want to.

Joe Sanok 00:21:07  Go, right?

Ted Phaneuf 00:21:08  So, you don’t want to do.

Joe Sanok 00:21:10  That agreement with them and, you know.

Joe Sanok 00:21:12  They’re not.

Joe Sanok 00:21:13  Here.

Ted Phaneuf 00:21:14  Right? So, I, you know, I can say at least confidently with our particular platform, I mean, with any sort of electronic means of of communicating.

Ted Phaneuf 00:21:23  Right. you know, health care information. There’s always a concern over a beach. There’s a concern over a breach in an EHR, just as there is, you know, for any platform like uphill or any of the other, you know, other AI, different products out there. So that’s how I sort of look at it. We built it around technology, data and, you know, data security practices. First, to to make sure that we had a framework that was really trustworthy. And a lot of that is transparent. And you can go even to a third party website that we set up, you know, for our, you know, consumers to be able to see it’s continuous monitoring that they can see in real time, about how we are being monitored with our adherence to those regulations.

Joe Sanok 00:22:06  Yeah. And when something is being recorded in a session and then changed over, like that’s not typically for most companies stored long term, where there’s a whole audio archive of counseling sessions. Is it.

Ted Phaneuf 00:22:18  Oh for sure. Yeah. So the audio recording, once it actually generates the transcript on our platform is completely, you know, deleted wants to note is generated. And actually, there’s a lot of great technologies that are coming out, you know, here in very near future that you won’t even need to have an audio file, you know, stored. So, at least within our platform, though. No, you know, the audio file is only used for the creation of the transcript, and then it’s completely deleted once the note is generated.

Joe Sanok 00:22:46  Gotcha. Very cool. And for those that are listening that want to hear more, it was episode 1011 which now I remember because it was all zeros and ones that made me laugh. Yeah. That you’re.

Joe Sanok 00:22:58  The.

Joe Sanok 00:22:58  I was all zeros and ones. I am so excited about alma. When I had my private practice, I struggled building my caseload, attracting the right clients, managing the business side. And honestly, one of the reasons I didn’t take insurance was it was so difficult to navigate.

Joe Sanok 00:23:24  So many of my consulting clients deal with these problems as well, and almost supports clinicians in building rewarding private practices with simplified insurance credentialing in under 45 days, enhanced reimbursement rates, and guaranteed two week payback, plus a free profile in their searchable, filter able directory. Making easy for clients who are the right fit for your practice to find you. Learn more about how alma could support your private practice at. Hello, alma. Com forward slash Jo. That’s hello alma.com/joe to learn more.

Joe Sanok 00:24:04  Well let’s talk about integration.

Joe Sanok 00:24:05  And so you know whether it’s the integration between Alma and Uphill or you know anyone that’s integrating, you know, another app or another platform into either their EHR, their billing software, any of those things. When you look at the integration between the two. tell me how that flow works. right now, with the new partnership that you guys have.

Elizabeth Morris 00:24:26  I mean, I think one of the key components for us was making sure that we partnered with a company that really shared our values. and most specifically, our provider first value.

Elizabeth Morris 00:24:41  that really that the, the needs of the clinician, are the primary focus. The concerns of the clinician are those that are being addressed by the teams who are working on these products. And certainly we care about clients and their experiences, but we’re really focused on the fact that when providers get the support they need, the quality of the clinical care they provide will improve. and so I think that we were fortunate in that we found a great values alignment between Alma and appeal. And then, you know, as the clinical leaders of of those two organizations, Ted and I have had the opportunity to collaborate quite closely and really think carefully and critically about what a clinician needs, what they want, and what they don’t want. and really make sure that our teams, both engineers and product designers and even marketing, are really adopting the lens of the clinician in everything they do. And so, you know, in our collaboration and in our individual roles, we really bring the voice of the clinician into the room.

Elizabeth Morris 00:25:54  and fortunately, we both work for organizations in which that role and that perspective is deeply valued and really seen as the primary driver between, in of the collaborations we’re doing together.

Ted Phaneuf 00:26:08  I love how you pointed that out really quick, Elizabeth, about that. you know, the organizations being respectful of the of the viewpoint. Some of my favorite conversations are you know, with with, you know, different folks on the team like the product or the engineering team when and if you’re talking about a clinical concept and say, well, why is that important? And they’re not asking you that because they are, you know, trying to be patronizing or demeaning or anything like that, they truly, really want to know, like why that’s an important aspect to clinicians. And I think that that’s just an, that values alignment that we’re talking about is that’s so important, is that it is about the needs of the providers and really understanding those pain points.

Elizabeth Morris 00:26:45  And I think just to add to that, you know, providers have some real skepticism about behavioral health technology and and certainly about AI.

Elizabeth Morris 00:26:56  And so from my perspective, it’s really important that they know that some of the key decisions that are being made in terms of what is created and how it’s created, are being made by fellow clinicians. and you know, I think that that is not always the case. there are, you know, places that are much more driven by the people who are very expert in the technology piece, but much less kind of familiar and embedded in the clinical worlds. And, and so it’s an important question to ask when you are evaluating different behavioral health technologies. You know, are the people who are making decisions about how this product works, what features it includes? Are they people who are experts in the clinical world? And is that perspective really being represented at the table? in this company that is building technology and supportive of clinical practice?

Joe Sanok 00:27:58  Well, so we titled this a Guide to writing compliant progress notes. And I know that we, we’ve gone down some different rabbit holes that I have led. What Elizabeth, what are some of the kind of bullet points that you would say are really important to hit on when we’re talking about compliant progress notes?

Elizabeth Morris 00:28:14  Yeah.

Elizabeth Morris 00:28:15  You know, there is a lengthy list of ingredients, and I’m actually happy to share that with you. Joe, after the session for you to share with your listeners. so I won’t run down the list, but what I will say is that there are pieces of it that are very specific. And so arming yourself with education about the, you know, the more specific requirements, and that are required for compliant documentation can be hugely helpful because I think most of us kind of intuitively know that our progress notes will include some information about what happens in a session. Right? And we have different ways of capturing that and talking about that. but there are other pieces that that might not necessarily be top of mind, like exactly what time did the appointment start and what time did it end? Right. Insurance companies don’t want to know the scheduled time. They evidently actually know us a little better than maybe we’d like, and know that none of us start exactly on the hour and end on the 45 or 53 minute.

Elizabeth Morris 00:29:23  Right. So they’re there, little things like that that don’t necessarily take any more time, but are seen as really integral in terms of, of compliance. And so, you know, it’s a combination of of having the right information and finding ways to really bring your clinical voice to the documentation, that captures what, you know, what you have done. And one of my favorite quotes, and I can’t remember who I should attribute it to, but someone once told me, if it’s something that your grandmother could do without a mental health degree, you probably shouldn’t list it as an intervention. And what that means is, you probably shouldn’t say that my interventions were I listened to the client or I explored with the client, or I provided real support and reassurance to the client, right? Those are all things that, you know, hopefully you a kind and loving grandmother, would it be able to do on our behalf? But we as therapists went to graduate school to get a degree and did a lot of supervised practice, pre licensure to develop intervention skills.

Elizabeth Morris 00:30:36  And so we need to make sure that we are really demonstrating that we were using those tools in a session. And and so you know it helps in these moments to have a pretty strong theoretical orientation because that allows you to clearly pinpoint what it is that you do in order to help people change. But that is like another area where, clarity and and also a very, I’d say, specifically identified approach Can make, writing your progress notes much easier and much more, you know, and do a much better job of evidencing the quality of the services that you’re providing. So compliance is a, you know, multifaceted kind of, issue. But I would say it’s a combination between knowing the required ingredients and how you’re going to consistently provide them, and finding ways to consistently express your clinical voice as you demonstrate the the services that you provide.

Joe Sanok 00:31:45  And Ted, how would you say AI helps in writing compliant progress notes?

Ted Phaneuf 00:31:51  I think that, you know what Elizabeth just pointed out. There was a key word that she kept using that I really love.

Ted Phaneuf 00:31:56  And the application here is consistency. and you know, there’s there are a lot of ingredients to capture in a compliant progress note. And I think it’s a lot for a therapist to always make sure that they’re keeping track of throughout the entire session. And what I mean by that is, you know, when you’re spending time doing the thing right, when you’re doing the therapy and you’re, you know, kind of drawing from all that theoretical framework and you’re using all these wonderful clinical interventions that, you know, work really well. And, you know, the whole time you’re not thinking, you know, if you’re using an AI platform, you’re not thinking about, okay, well, how do I document that? Right? Like how do I make sure that that is translated into the documentation? And, you know, something like, I, you know, being there to be a tool for support to you, it listens and it, it picks up on the interventions that you’re using and it knows where to put it within the note.

Ted Phaneuf 00:32:44  Right. If you’re structuring the note format the way that it’s supposed to be from a compliant perspective, you know that every time you are done with that session and you do a quick review of the information and you hit submit, that what’s going to come out on the other side is going to be consistent documentation that meets all of those points. Right. and I just think that that’s actually a really amazing use of technology that, you know, we can harness, you know, 1000 or 15,000 basically brains, you know, in 1 in 1 sitting to be able to to synthesize what your what the good work that you’re doing as a clinician and be able to do that consistently.

Elizabeth Morris 00:33:22  The one thing that I would add there is that there’s this really interesting balance between consistency and personalization. And Ted and I work with a shared billing consultants. And often when we’re looking at notes and getting feedback from her, she will say to us, well, there is no way that this note would be would be deemed as anything other than highly personalized because you are getting very, you know, individually based data about exactly what that client did in session.

Elizabeth Morris 00:33:56  And it’s actually less about the content. It isn’t necessarily giving details about the argument they had with their boyfriends the night before. it is really focusing on, you know, their particular ways of responding to the things that you did in session. So really focusing on these key processes of change as opposed to, you know, producing a whole lot of content with details that actually are not at all relevant or that we wouldn’t necessarily want to share with insurance companies. So for me, one of the things I love most about using the tool as that is that it does balance consistency in terms of what information is provided and highly personalized ways of capturing the experience of the client. And that’s a pretty unique, balance to be able to strike.

Joe Sanok 00:34:48  Yeah. Well said.

Joe Sanok 00:34:50  So awesome. Well, Ted, I’ll ask you this final question. first and then Elizabeth, I’ll let you have the last word. Ted, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

Joe Sanok 00:35:03  Yeah.

Ted Phaneuf 00:35:03  I think, you know, I will just I know I’m gonna kind of out myself and say that this is probably the same thing that I said last time, maybe with a different spin. But I think it’s truly important that, you know, we have an obligation as therapists, you know, to really help shape this technology, to really get involved in, in how this is conceptualized, how it’s trained, how it’s delivered. we want to be active participants. We don’t want to be on the sidelines watching other companies and individuals who think they know better. Right? Create this technology because it’s such an important, helpful tool for, for us. But we have a responsibility to our clients to make sure it’s it’s created ethically and responsibly, and really pertaining to the needs of the therapist. So I, I would just reiterate my, my call to action on that is, you know, find ways that you can get involved. and getting involved could be just using a platform. Right. And giving your feedback on the node output or being, you know, being open to trying this on the Alma platform with node assist and just making sure that you’re giving, appropriate like not appropriate, but a lot of feedback, right, about what you think could be improved.

Ted Phaneuf 00:36:14  So we can continue to shape this thing.

Joe Sanok 00:36:17  And Elizabeth what about you.

Elizabeth Morris 00:36:20  I think for me, what I’ve noticed most in talking to a lot of people about some of these emerging behavioral health technologies, including AI, is that many of them are scared. Many of them feel, unprepared to make decisions about what they use and what they don’t use. and I think that’s a really normal human response, right? We we tend to prefer to be oriented and to have a sense of what we’re dealing with and what it could mean. but we will never get there as individuals or as a field without an openness to experimentation, but I would say an openness to experimentation in service of our values. and so, you know, I encourage folks to think about what is important to you. What would how could technology support the work? You do not replace it. but but really enhance what is already happening. and, you know, based on that vision of, of what the possibility would be. to be able to experiment a little bit and try things out, you know, they’re going to be things that you probably love.

Elizabeth Morris 00:37:35  They’re going to be things that you have probably strong negative feelings about and that, you know, that makes sense. There’s a lot of different ways of applying technology in this space, and I think some of them are going to be very much aligned with the needs and experience of clinicians and clients and others, probably less so. so I really encourage folks in private practice to be open to exploration and kind of trial of these, of these products, but really doing so with a clear sense of their own values in mind.

Joe Sanok 00:38:11  Are so awesome. Well, if people want to work with you, where should we send them? we’re for each year companies.

Elizabeth Morris 00:38:20  Well, for alma, you can find us at hello alma.com. and I’ll just add before Ted jumps in that, you know, for people who are alma members, appeal is already embedded inside of our platform. So you get the benefits of both companies at once.

Ted Phaneuf 00:38:39  Yeah. Thanks for pointing that out. and if people are interested in, you know, in uphill, just go to uphill, upheaval.

Ted Phaneuf 00:38:48  Dot io.

Joe Sanok 00:38:50  so awesome. Well, thank you, both of you, for being on the practice of the practice podcast.

Ted Phaneuf 00:38:55  Thank you. Joe.

Elizabeth Morris 00:38:55  Thank you. And.

Joe Sanok 00:39:04  You know, it’s it’s things like this that make me just think we can just shave off some time by being smarter with our technology, that in educating ourselves and learning about how companies are protecting our clients information and and all that goes into partnering with other companies, it can save you time. And I want to encourage you, to not be fear driven with this, but to really think through, like, how can I improve my processes? you know, one thing that I do with my consulting clients is I have them make a hate list, and this is all the stuff that they just hate doing in their practice. And we start there as sort of a quick win to just start thinking about, you know, what in your life do you hate not just your practice. So do you hate doing laundry? Do you hate, mowing your lawn? Do you hate, progress notes? Do you hate taking out the trash at your practice? Like, what are those things that for some reason, you bootstrapped your way into it and you could just hire a company or a service or a software? or, you know, the kid next door to help out so you can put your best energy into the best things.

Joe Sanok 00:40:07  You know, only you can show up for your clients. You know, maybe you’ll start a group practice, but, you are you. And so showing up for your clients, leading your team, leading your family or friends or whatever your life looks like. that’s where our energy should go. And so whether it’s uphill or alma or other things that help save us time and frustration, dig into those preferred providers that we have over at practice the practice, and start to make a difference in making this year, you know, a little bit better than, than last year. that’s why this series is called the Even Better Year series to me. I think those small steps in the right direction are definitely where we see that long term change and shift happen. And that’s what this series is all about this month, the even better year. It’s sort of we’re going to get a little bit better rather than like, we’re the best year ever. So, let’s make this year even better than last year. thanks for hanging out.

Joe Sanok 00:41:01  We are so excited to bring these types of things to you as much as we can, so that you can level up your practice in a way that’s just amazing. head on over to Alma’s website. Hello, alma.com slash. Jo, if you want help with credentialing, if you want help with reimbursement rates and a guaranteed two week payback again, that’s hello alma.com slash. Jo, thank you for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band. Silence is sexy for that intro music, and this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter cover. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.