[JOE]:
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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 504.

Well, I am Joe Sanok, your host and I am so excited about you meeting Kate today. Kate is just this amazing woman. She’s started the Full of Shift podcast. She’s one of our Done For You podcasters, meaning that she shows up, she does the podcasting and then we do all the backend work. We have a whole team now that does just everything. I mean, show notes, transcriptions, monitoring where we’re at with the podcast, we have a whole sound engineering team. It’s really amazing to be able to offer this. So she’s one of our Done For You podcasters and part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, which you can check out all those podcasts. I think we have fourteen podcasts now that we oversee over at practiceofthepractice.com/network. And if that’s something that you’re interested in doing, or even just talking with me about whether it’s a fit, just go over to practiceofthepractice.com/apply, you can just click on the application there. Tell me a little bit about what you want to work on and then we’ll chat for half an hour. And if it’s a fit, we would love to have you be one of our Done For You podcasters. And if not, we have more than enough people that are applying for things that we don’t ever try to squeeze people into something they don’t need. So if it’s just consulting with doing Podcast Launch School, or doing Podcast Launch School, or maybe not even doing a podcast, we never squeeze people into things that they don’t need. So I’ll give you an honest answer on where I think you’re gonna get the strongest return on investment for your time and money. So again, that’s practiceofthepractice.com/apply.

So we have Kate today. Kate Kneifel, I am so excited for you to meet her. And so without any further ado, here’s Kate.

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[JOE]:
Well, today on the Practice of the Practice podcast, we have Kate Kneifel. Kate has the Full of Shift podcast. She’s a clinician, a friend, and I’m so excited to have Kate here on the Practice of the Practice podcast. Kate, welcome.

[KATE]:
Thank you, I’m so happy to be here.

[JOE]:
Oh, man, me too. I feel like when we first were talking about your podcast, and you were talking about the kind of books that influenced you, and mindsets, like, this is a sister from another mister. It’s just like you are cut from the same cloth. And I’m so excited to have you on the show and to talk about your new podcast, but also just some tips around habit change and kind of all of that. I wanted to start with has habit formation always been sort of a part of your life or did that kind of develop at a certain point?

[KATE]:
Yeah, so it’s interesting. You know, the first time I can think of really diving into habits was in college. And so when I was in my freshman and sophomore year of college, I was geeking out on… I would choose to read, like, Stephen Covey books, like the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And when I was taking speech class, I gave all of my speeches on different ways to be more productive, to use time management. And so that was really a time where I started to notice, like, wow, I’m really into this and I don’t know that everyone else is as into it as I am. And then it kind of, you know…

[JOE]:
Especially at that age. I mean, like, eighteen, nineteen, most people are like, how can I get the most out of my life right now, outside of parties?

[KATE]:
Yeah. And I took it to the extreme. I don’t know if you remember, but Stephen Covey had this example with the big rocks and the pebbles in the sand.

[JOE]:
Yes.

[KATE]:
Yes. And so, basically, he tells the story about if you had… If you think of your life like a container, and if you have big rocks and pebbles and sand, and the big rocks are like your main priorities, pebbles are other things that need to get done, and sand is just, like, all the trivial stuff, how you put that stuff into the container makes a difference if it all fits or not. And so I was so into that. I got a container, I had sand, I had big rocks for my speech as like a, you know, show and tell to show that concept during that time.

[JOE]:
Wow. And did the class, like, just have a roaring applause? Or were they, like, meh?

[KATE]:
You know, I think half the class was maybe asleep, but my professor was really into it. So, you know, I got a good grade at least.

[JOE]:
That’s awesome. So then, I mean, was that something that then just stayed with you? Or did you kind of fall away from it? Or how did it go after you were in early higher education?

[KATE]:
Yeah. So I think, for me, how this has really developed just my interest is I’ve always been fascinated with how we learn. How we learn and our behaviors surrounding that. First of all, how do we learn? And then how do we take what we’ve learned, and use it and manipulate it out in the real world? And my career trajectory really models that too, which is really interesting, looking back on it right now. I started off my career… Right now I work as a therapist. I have my own practice here in Carmel, Indiana, and I specialize in anxiety, depression and trauma. But for me, that’s a second career. I started out as elementary education and a special education teacher. So I got my minor in special education. And part of the reason, you know, I was fascinated in how people learn, but I wanted that special education minor, because I knew and I was fascinated by how we all learn different; we learn in different ways. Our brains work differently. But there’s ways that we can address that – all of those different styles – to learn.

And so, I started off as a teacher, and I worked as a teacher, but I kept on feeling like I wanted something more. And what I noticed is I was really drawn to some of the kids that would have maybe some behavioral issues, or some different things going on there. And that’s what led me to go back into my second career, which was going back to social work, and eventually into private practice, really looking at behaviors. And so now, what is so fun about this podcast, actually, is marrying the two, like, marrying how do you break down bigger concepts into smaller pieces? And then how do you add in that behavioral piece, to take that information and bridge that gap from, you know, information and insight, to actual action in your real life?

[JOE]:
Yeah, so when you think about, like, people’s habits, and kind of what their desires are, what are things that people struggle with typically, whether it’s food or exercise, that you’ve seen people because of their habits… they’ve kind of overcome that struggle?

[KATE]:
Yes. So you’re asking me how have I seen people overcome the struggle?

[JOE]:
Yeah, yeah. Maybe, what are common struggles? And then how have you seen them overcome them?

[KATE]:
Yeah, I will say, you know, one of the most things that I’ll talk about first is where I see a lot of people get stuck. So there’s different places that they get stuck. And I feel like if we can highlight some of those stuck places, then it’s much easier to move forward, to overcome or to move through them. And I think one of the biggest stuck places that I notice is just the framework that we use, or just kind of the perspective that we bring with us to any kind of habit change. And what that perspective often is, is okay, there’s one way. There’s like, right or wrong, good or bad, we come to it typically with a lot of expectation and a lot of judgment, versus coming to approaching a new habit that we want to change – whether it’s weight loss, or exercise, or other habits, we want to be more creative, we’d like to engage with our children in a more authentic manner – to instead approach it from a place of curiosity.

And really, you know, one way that I talk about, Joe, to remember this is that less Judge Judy, and more Curious George. Like, curiosity, you know, Judge Judy is right, wrong, good, bad, you know, and then it’s over. And Curious George is really open and playful, and kind of checking things out, but still moving forward. And so when people are able to approach from that place of curiosity, then it’s not like a one and done, or if it doesn’t work, then it’s not all over. Then it’s just okay, let’s step back and look at this. What didn’t work? And how do I make an adjustment then in order to move forward?

[JOE]:
Yeah, no, I think that’s a really good point. So when we’re talking about habit change, I know you and I tend to be small steps in the right direction really kind of add up over time. But then there’s some people like my wife, Christina, that she sort of has to throw an atom bomb into things and be like, I am not eating these forty foods for the next forty days, and that works for her. When you think about habit change – I don’t know that there’s necessarily debate, some people say one’s better than the others – but, like, how do you think through it in regards to kind of small steps in the right direction over time versus, you know, I’m gonna have a whole year I’m not eating meat, or a whole month that I’m not gonna eat meat? What are the values in taking the small steps over time, compared to just kind of the total abstinence, big bold statement side of habit change?

[KATE]:
Right. So I would say I think both can work. So going back to people have different styles. So there are people that, you know, they want to make a big declaration, and it works for them. They’re gonna say, okay, I’m not going to eat any meat for a year, and it works for them. But I would argue, for the majority of us, or for a lot of us maybe – and maybe that’s who I’m really talking to, is to people who feel like, you know, that just doesn’t work for me, or I’ve tried it so many times and then I have this sense of shame. Like, what is wrong with me that I can’t do it? I see people like Christina, who do it and they seem to do it with a fair amount of ease, why can’t I do it? What is wrong with me? And I would say that perhaps they just need a different system. And so what small steps does is it breaks it down enough so that you can be consistent over time. And what helps with that is when you have a small step…

So we’re going to go back to that example with Christina, no meat for a year, right? So she’s got to go a whole year before that goal, or that aspiration is accomplished. Versus if you broke that down and made it a little smaller and said, okay, I’m going to have one meal a week that doesn’t have meat, or one meal a day that doesn’t have meat. Then you get that endorphin boost, you get that little that pop of like, oh, I did it. And it feels really good. Yeah. So the thing is, you know, I am sort of obsessed with… I don’t know if you’ve read much of BJ Fogg’s work, Joe, but I am obsessed with him. He is a professor out of Stanford, and he does all this work with habits. And one of the things that he says – and I think this rings so true with making small changes – is people change best by feeling good, not by feeling bad.

[JOE]:
Yeah, I mean, even just think about kids – they’re more likely to work towards something positive than to avoid, you know, a punishment or a negative.

[KATE]:
Yes.

[JOE]:
Although there are times that I’m like, if you keep this up, I’m taking away the iPad for the whole day. Then it kinda shocks them out of it.

[KATE]:
Right. But I mean, you know, part of the reason… Small changes, another example is, I mean, you know, Joe, I know you’ve heard this term before, like, ‘research is me search’, right?

[JOE]:
Sure.

[KATE]:
And part of the reason that I am so interested in habit change, and taking this information and putting it into action, is because I have struggled with it so much over the years. I mean, you know, I can read every book, I have listened to all the podcasts, I can do all of the things, I can watch the YouTube videos, but what I found is, you know, my average for making change on things that were important to me, it was about five years actually. And where the small changes come in is, for example, I was trying to meditate. I had read all the research about meditation, both as an educator, how good it was for kids, but then also as a therapist, but I was finding it so challenging to actually last even three days of meditation. And when I would sit down to meditate, man, Judge Judy showed up. Like, I’d be on minute three and I would be like, what’s my problem? Why can I do this? I want to gouge my eyeballs out. Why is this so hard for me? Other people can do this.

[KATE]:
But what I found was when I was curious and opened it up, and when I said, okay, I don’t have to be zen for twenty minutes. All I have to do is sit on the edge of my couch until the timer goes off for five minutes, and just notice what happens. And what I found by doing that, is I could sustain that. And after I did five minutes, even if my mind wasn’t clear, even if I didn’t feel like it was pretty, I still felt really good about myself. And then that momentum was able to keep me moving forward to a point where now I have a daily meditation practice where I meditate twenty minutes every morning. But it took breaking it down into that small piece for me to be able to do that. And it took also for me to be able to feel good, like, I needed to feel good about something to translate all that information into action that I could sustain in my daily life.

[JOE]:
Yeah.

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[JOE]:
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[JOE]:
Now, one aspect of kind of the self-development, habit-forming, productivity, all of that, that I’ve been kind of questioning recently, is how much of it comes from a place of not thinking that you’re whole or fulfilled just how you are? That, you know, if I get this next habit, if I stop doing this, or start doing this, then I’ll feel like I’m a complete person. And more and more, I’m thinking that’s just not true, you know, that, like, our value doesn’t come from what we achieve. How do you find that balance of, alright, I want to change this thing about me, I think it’s going to help my kids, and I know that if I don’t change it, I’m still a good person, I’m still a person that’s whole, that it’s not coming from a place of lacking. How do you find that balance of not being so judgmental about your habits that it just makes you feel, I don’t know, that it’s coming from a place of incompleteness?

[KATE]:
Yes. Wow. Joe, that is such a good point. And that is such a fine line to watch out for, for sure. And one of the things that I actually think happens – and I’m curious, I would be curious to know what your thoughts are on this – I actually feel like what I’ve noticed with clients that I’ve worked with, other people that I’ve worked with, with habits, but also with myself, that oftentimes when it’s coming from that perspective, like I need to be able to do this in order to feel like I’m good enough, to feel like I’m whole – which often comes up, I will say, with weight loss goals. That can be kind of the tricky part of… some of the different weight loss can come in there, or some other aspects. Oftentimes, when that perspective is showing up, it is really difficult to follow through because it feels like this proving, that I just have to prove something. Or you follow through and then it’s the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, and it never feels that true satisfaction. It’s almost like junk food, like, I have to keep on eating Doritos because it’s never enough.

[JOE]:
Yeah.

[KATE]:
And yeah, I would say… You know, part of the program that I have – that’s actually, you know, it’s a free download on my website – talks about being aware of this, and this is where this other part of small steps are important, but noticing your world and paying attention to yourself really does matter. Because what I talk about there and what I think is really important, is noticing whatever you’re working on, does it truly align with what’s important to you? Like, what’s really important to you, does it align with that? And if not, how do you shift it so that it’s really aligned to a value versus just this striving, and proving, and goldstar collecting instead?

[JOE]:
Yeah because I think that it’s almost like that goldstar collecting, a lot of people have that kind of achiever, maybe enneagram three types, or type [unclear] you describe it, that they think that if I get this top position, if I get this contract, if I get this type of client, or if I’m charging X number of dollars per session, whatever, fill in the blank, that then I will feel whatever. To me, I think that’s what I find is the most dangerous, that I need X to happen, or X,Y and Z to happen, in order to feel this particular way.

As we prepared for this road trip – as you know, we’re on this big, who knows how long, road trip, living out of the campe – Christina, my wife, and we talked about this on the Leave to Find podcast a bit, she tends to be someone that idealizes both the past and the future. And so the idea of leaving all these pains behind and all this worry behind, and then we’re on the road, and we still have mail that’s coming in that my dad is like sending us photos of, we have our cleaning lady that’s cleaning our house, and there’s things that are happening because we have renters there. It’s like, life doesn’t just magically become a vacation either. And I’m not saying Christina was saying that, but it’s one of those things that if we expect that life is gonna be a certain way only if certain things happen, I think that’s more the danger, at least as I look at kind of habit-forming. And it’s more, okay, if I’m experiencing pain, or others around me are experiencing pain, how do I alleviate that pain while also realizing sometimes that pain helps us? And so being able to look at my own tendencies as a father, a husband, a consultant, that, you know, maybe are negative, to then say, you know, this might be hurting other people, I need to be a better father because it’s hurting my kids or, you know, it’s not helping them feel as fulfilled as they could feel. And I don’t want to do that. Compared to, I am a terrible person because I lost my cool with my kids. Well, no, like, that happens. And I can also then work on that behavior to become an even better, more grounded father as well.

[KATE]:
Right. Yeah. So I mean, that’s a perfect example of having some self-awareness that allows you then to realign with your values, and to have some curiosity with what’s going on, to stop and notice, like, whoa, okay, I don’t know if I’m in territory that I want to be in, to be able to realign. And what I’m so interested in with this piece, and this is what I’m really interested about exploring with this podcast, is you’ve got the behavioral piece, right? As far as, okay, this is what you do. If we break it down into a small step, you can do this. And then you also have the self-awareness piece or this ability, you know, to notice and tune in and to be self-aware. And the two alone can be detrimental both on their own. So like, the self-awareness piece is kind of where I was in before, as far as oh, yeah, I know this about myself, and I can read all the books, and that’s so interesting, and yes, I can connect all of the dots. But for many of the goals, or the different pieces that I was trying to work on or move forward on, I couldn’t move forward, because I didn’t kind of have that behavioral piece down.

But if you had that behavioral piece, alone, then it’s just, you know, there are people and I know, Joe, you’re like, super productive and I’m not saying this would be you, but there are people then that, man, they can check off every checklist, like, boom, boom, boom, done, done, done, go, go go. And then pretty soon, they are way down a path that they might not even want to be on.

[JOE]:
Right.

[KATE]:
Yeah, they’re just super effective. And so what this podcast, what I am so fascinated about, is marrying the two. So how do you use that self-awareness and start noticing your own emotions, your feelings, your energy, your world in small ways? How do you notice that and how do you then marry that and connect that to behavior that aligns with what you value and where you truly want to go? Not just like, where you’re good at going, not just where you’re expected to go. But where you truly want to go and what’s important to you.

[JOE]:
Well, it’s such important work because how many of us just went through grad school and kind of followed the script? I mean, I started working at nonprofits, then residential facilities, then, luckily, I got to work at community mental health, like, that was a big step up. And then… It was just the steps were kind of predefined. And that idea of yeah, I was great, I was productive, my bosses liked me. But was that what I even wanted to do? No. It took me a while to really kind of come to terms with that clinical work wasn’t what I wanted to do. For a while, I enjoyed it, you know, I was good at it. But I also then over time, as I explored other ideas, or was curious, like you were saying, then I started to shift and test and try new things. And, well, I really like helping people build private practice, I really like helping people build podcasts, but it’s not like that moment you can do that. You then have to kind of set a plan in place to shift away from, like, the bread and butter. I had a private practice with eleven people; I had to move that away from me and have it be more other people-centric, before I could really dive into these other things. And to be able to have that kind of life passion or whatever word we use – I think passion is overused sometimes – but that idea of, I’m moving in this direction, and then I need the habits now, to support that, instead of just having this pie in the sky, if I will it to the universe it’s just gonna happen and I don’t have to do anything. And so I love that you’re bringing the kind of both sides of the equation together with this podcast, with your teachings and all your courses.

[KATE]:
Right, right. Yeah, I think being able to, you know, the beginning and the end is what we think about. The beginning is really exciting and we can picture the end. But what does it look like in between there? But something else that you said that is really interesting, that comes up a lot in these conversations that I have with people, is you talked about all of these different changes you’ve made. You started in one place, and then you notice you enjoyed this other piece. And so you’re shifting, shifting, shifting. But in order for you to do that, you had to really give yourself permission that that was okay.

[JOE]:
And to let go of the identity. I mean, I wrote a second grade paper about being a psychologist. So it’s been since I was like seven years old that I’ve been thinking about this stuff. So I had to let go of that identity too.

[KATE]:
Yes. But being able to trust yourself with that. And so a lot of people have this idea. And that’s where it goes back to like, there’s one way, like, okay, you get on this path, and this is the path that you’re on. And if you want to change your mind, or if you start noticing, gosh, I’m actually really more interested in this career, or I really want to start painting but I mean, gosh, who paints? That’s ridiculous. Maybe you grew up in a family where getting out a canvas and paints, that’s ridiculous. Who does that? There sometimes can be this hesitation there about just changing course. And so sometimes that can help, that’s where the small can help too, like, okay, then take it really small. And notice how it feels and move forward that way. But that permission piece and that changing course can really throw people sometimes because they think it just “shouldn’t be that way”. That Judge Judy comes in and tells them, you know, what to do or what they should think.

[JOE]:
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I know we’re getting close to the end of this interview, but what are some quick tips when that Judge Judy shows up? Because I think that’s so common for people. So when Judge Judy shows up, what are a couple things that people can do to just combat that, get back to being more Curious George?

[KATE]:
Yes. Okay. Well, the first thing is just noticing when Judge Judy is showing up. Just like, oh, this is what she was talking about. Yeah, like, this kind of happens often for me. I really fall into like, good, bad, right or wrong, or, you know, have a lot of shoulds going on in my head. Okay. Now, here’s what a lot of people will do then, then they will judge themselves for judging. So, do not do that. So instead, what you want to do is just notice, okay, yeah, this is a place where I’m noticing that I’m judging. Okay. And then how does that make me feel? I mean, really, the reason I talk about this is not just because, like, touchy-feely, good for you, but when you get really locked into some of that judgment, does it work for you? I mean, does it work in the long term? So just kind of noticing that.

And some people might say, well, actually, yeah, Kate, it does. It lights a fire under my butt and it does work. And this is what I will say with that. It might work briefly in the short term, and, you know, judgment, it can be like a Red Bull and kind of ramp you up and get you motivated in a short term, but then the crash is coming. And curiosity, if we move into that more Curious George – and if we stay with, like, a beverage metaphor, right – curiosity is a little bit more like a green drink. It’s sustaining. You might have to practice getting to like it. It might be something that takes a little time to get used to. But what it looks like to shift into that more Curious George is just notice, like, okay, what’s going on here? How does this make me feel? And if I looked at this more like a scientist if I were really interested and I pull back and look down on this, what would I notice is going on? And then checking in – what might work a little bit better for me?

So if it’s weight loss – let’s just go back to weight loss for a minute – and you just had a cupcake or something and you’re really getting down on yourself. What’s my problem? I’m never going to get over this. I said it wasn’t going to eat sugar, and this is such a big issue for me. Okay. All right. Let’s look at that then, pull back. What was going on? I was at a birthday party. Everyone else was eating the cupcakes. I didn’t want to be the only one who wasn’t eating the cupcake. I didn’t want… Susie’s then going to ask me if I’m not eating sugar, and I just didn’t want to deal with that. It was easier for me to eat the cupcake. Okay, then that’s really good information. Being able to look at, all right, if that is something that you’re trying to do, for whatever reason, sugar, then that’s an obstacle you know of, okay, what could I maybe do in the future? What might be one small thing, when I’m out or when I’m at birthday parties, that might help me navigate that situation in a way that feels more comfortable and aligned with how I want to show up?

[JOE]:
Yeah, it’s like, well, also, maybe you just value socialization over a cupcake. Yeah.

[KATE]:
Yeah.

[JOE]:
And is that bad?

[KATE]:
Yes. Absolutely.

[JOE]:
It’s not like we go to birthday parties every evening, or even every weekend [unclear]. So you did that. Okay. That’s where I think so often people get into that mindset of, I’m not good enough because I ate the cupcake. No, you care about Susie and her birthday party. You don’t want to make a big awkward moment. And, sure, maybe you want less sugar in your life. Maybe you’re gluten intolerant, and you still ate the cupcake, and now you feel like junk. But you feel like junk because you wanted to make Susie feel good. And is that a bad thing either? And so I love the idea of moving away from being so judgmental towards ourselves.

[KATE]:
Yes. And what you’re bringing up again, Joe, is just permission to do that. Permission to say, well, yeah, like, and you can do both, right? I can look at moving towards this and, at birthday parties, I’m eating the cupcake. Or, you know, at these types of birthday parties, this is what I want to do because this is what’s important to me. Yes. Yeah. Great clarification there.

[JOE]:
Yeah, I was just listening to, yesterday, it was Russell Brand interviewing Eckhart Tolle. I always said Tolle, but then apparently it’s Tolle.

[KATE]:
Oh, I did not know that.

[JOE]:
Yeah. So, I don’t know. Either way, I’m not saying Russell Brand is the authoritative speaker on Eckhart, who cares? You all know who I’m talking about. So, Eckhart was saying, you know, we think of ourselves and we judge ourselves and say, this is bad, this is good, and what we’ve done, and shame on you. And he said, who is the you that is judging you? And I thought it was such a good mind exercise, to think about, is it me that’s then judging me? Or is it, like, another version of myself? Am I kind of splitting my personality apart? I just thought it was just kind of a cool way of saying just integrate with yourself and own your sense of shame, and own your sense of judgment, and move towards that self-acceptance. So as you were talking, that made me kind of think of that. Well, Kate, the last question I always ask is, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

[KATE]:
Ah, gosh, I guess I would just want them to know, oh, that is a hard one. Um, I think I would want them to know, and as I would want everyone to know, that whatever shift that you want to make, it is accessible. And whether that is, you know, a shift you want to make in your private practice, and you feel like, oh, who am I to do this, or I don’t feel like I have permission to do this, you know, a little bit of what we’ve talked about, or if you’re someone listening who doesn’t have a private practice and you want to make some change, that small change and noticing what’s important to you, it is there and ready and accessible. There’s nothing wrong with you. It might just mean a little shift in the way you go about it.

[JOE]:
Oh, that’s so good. So good. Um, tell us a little bit about your course, your free course, about what people get from it and how they can sign up for it.

[KATE]:
Yeah, great. So I have a free course available on my website, which is just fullofshiftpodcast.com. And what this course does is it walks each person through seven different stuck points that people tend to run into when they’re trying to make some kind of behavioral change. And then it also offers a small shift in order to move forward for each one of those points. And you can go ahead and sign up for that at the website.

[JOE]:
Oh, that’s so awesome. Well, Kate, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.

[KATE]:
Thank you so much for having me. It’s been fun.

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[JOE]:
So what are you gonna do with this information? I love how Kate talks about these really small steps that make a big difference. It’s so important to keep pushing yourself to do bigger things, not just to make more money, not just to improve your business, but because, you know, we have skills inside of us. And that idea of what am I made of? What could I do here that actually is going to make an impact? To me, that’s the interesting stuff. That’s where sitting and dreaming big with people last month at The Art of Dreaming Big, and thinking about well, like, what would it look like to take this skillset and to just launch it into the world? It’s so invigorating for me to see people take these skills and go beyond just kind of that one on one counseling.

So if you are looking for more podcasts that are inspiring, that are good for the world, that are from a therapeutic perspective, head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/network, you’ll see all the podcasts that we oversee, that we’ve supported, that we’ve helped launch. They’re all amazing quality and just amazing people.

Also if you need an electronic health record, TherapyNotes is the best one to do. They are highly recommended. They’ve been sponsors for years. We love them and the customers that use them, that are clients, are just so thrilled with them. Live customer support, actual people you can talk to if you get stuck within the system. There’s so much that’s customizable within it, and things that are templates. It’s amazing. So head on over to therapynotes.com, use promo code JOE so you can get your extra months for free. If you want to get six months for free. make sure you’re a Practice of the Practice Next Level Practice member because Next Level Practice members get all sorts of benefits like six months of TherapyNotes for free, Brighter Vision offers extra things. When we negotiate our sponsorship contracts, we want the best things for our members and so we negotiate that into every single contract that we do. So thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing day.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music; we really like it. This podcast is designed to provide accurate, authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.