• Learn more at DanielWendler.com or Marketing for Therapists. Connect on Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn.

Joe Sanok 00:00:00  You're someone with a vision for your practice, for your side hustle, and for your personal journey. But when it comes to establishing your path and how to get to where you want to be with your practice, things get a little messy. You're also someone who'd prefer to go in person instead of to groups and listening to everyone else's story. To me, it sounds like you could benefit from one on one consulting with our experienced practice of the practice consultants from 595 a month and up. You can work with a consultant that will give you more direction and practical, tried and tested tips matched to you and your goals. For more information, visit practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. Again, that's practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. This is the practice of the practice podcast with Joe Sam. Session number 1228. I'm Joe and I'm your host. And welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast. We absolutely love doing this show because we get to help you build a thriving private practice you absolutely love.

Joe Sanok 00:01:16  and absolutely love that side. If we just kind of drill into that a little bit, sometimes that means giving up or changing the things that you're working on. you know, I remember when I had my, supervision business, so, I was doing, LLP supervision, so limited licensed professional counselors here in Michigan have to have two years of supervision. And, in Michigan, there was no max to the size group. so I had 16 people in that group, but then I hired other supervisors to come in to help kind of break up the group. And we had this really dynamic 4.5 hours a month where we dug into clients. We watched Ted talks. To me, it felt more effective than just doing, you know, one on one for an hour a week. versus like really being able to sort through things over four hours and, you know, it felt really effective. People loved it. But I realized, at the time, being a young dad and having young kids that, you know, doing that till 10 p.m., you know, once a month, I found myself dreading it.

Joe Sanok 00:02:14  And, you know, there's those things that for a while, bring in the money. It could be your practice, your group practice. It could be a supervision group. but then there's also things, some adventures that kind of draw you. and we have to kind of keep the plates spinning of, you know, what's paying the bills. But we also want to evaluate, you know, is this fun? Am I enjoying this? what could I do if I dreamt a little bit bigger? And that's what I'm really excited to talk with Dan about today. Doctor Dan Wendler is a bestselling author, nationally recognized keynote speaker, and a leading expert in private practice digital marketing. He's the founder of marketing for therapists, a full service digital agency that works exclusively with therapy practices, and he's a sought after speaker for organizations including Google, Harvard, and the US Treasury Department. His expertise has been featured by Bloomberg Magazine, The Great Place to Work Summit, and the American Psychological Association. He's returning for the second time to practice of the practice, and he has been a long time friend of the show and of me.

Joe Sanok 00:03:17  You can connect with him over at Daniel Wendler. We'll have a link to that in the show. Notes. Dan, welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:03:24  Joe, I'm thrilled to be back.

Joe Sanok 00:03:26  Yeah, I am so excited to have you here. You know, you you were one of I don't remember what the very first episode was, but I feel like it was before episode 100. It was pretty dang early on. I've known you.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:03:37  Yeah. It was. I we go way back. It's been cool to see how much this has grown and how much impact you've been able to make. I've really been kind of proud to be able to say, hey, I knew him when.

Joe Sanok 00:03:49  Yeah. Same. I mean, like, you and I were just talking about your keynote speaking, and I'm really excited to dig into kind of that jump for you. but to to go from, you know, being a therapist and then, you know, adding your kind of marketing stuff you're doing and now doing keynotes, I think that's I mean, that's the dream that so many of our consulting clients say, how do you do that? So, we're going to have to dig into some of that today.

Joe Sanok 00:04:12  But, let's just start with, how how's marketing for therapists going?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:04:16  Yeah. So marketing for therapists. so when we first talked, I was, I was a, a little grad student. because I started it as a dorm room business. and it was sort of just me doing everything. I've now grown it to a team of about ten people, and we really kind of provide the full suite of digital marketing services. kind of with the intention of being like, can I recruit people that both know the real best practices? so, you know, you're going to get quality work, but then also recruit people that like, know and understand and most importantly, value, you know, the mission of of therapy. So it's not just another job for them. It's not like. But they realize that when we get you a client, that's another person being served. That's another person whose life is maybe going to transform. And so I'm really I'm really proud of what's been able to be grown there.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:05:06  It's been a little bit of a challenge because as I've grown it, I've had to give more things away, had to learn how to delegate. and you know, when something's you're, you know, your baby, there's there's some growing pains there. But I couldn't be more proud or thrilled of my team. And I feel like we still like, honestly, I've got a lot of people that are better than I ever was. And that's that's one of the coolest things to be like, the next version of this, of this organization is, is helping people even more than I could on my own.

Joe Sanok 00:05:36  yeah. Now I imagine helping therapists with marketing, and we're not going to have that be the main kind of thing of this episode. But I would love to hear, like, what are things right now that you're seeing this year, work or not work? for therapists, like, are there things that have shifted that used to work that no longer are working as well, or new things that are working even better? Like what's just a quick masterclass on marketing of what you're seeing in the market right now?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:06:03  Yeah.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:06:04  So I think that there's, there's I think there's two quick thoughts that I would say. I think one of the things that is is not working very well, is the, is it do it yourself approach that that is just in the digital space, like the, the, the days of like I'm going to throw a website together. I'm going to figure out how to do Google ads on my own. I'm going to like, read an article on SEO and then just kind of do that, like the the the field just continues to advance. and it's, it's a little bit like if, you know, if Freud were to show up in the modern day and sit down and try to do modern therapy, like, you know, it would be very difficult to kind of catch up with everything that's been added. And so I see a lot of people that come to us because they're like, hey, I read some article or I took some master class and, you know, I tried to do it myself.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:06:59  And I, because it's so technical to know how to do SEO or ads or build a website according to, to modern best practices. For most people, they really struggle on it because that's sort of not a, you know, it's not their area of core strength, and they don't have the time to really learn how to do it. But then the untapped opportunity, the thing that that really tends to work, but a lot of people don't think of is the is the relationship building part of marketing? because, I mean, as a therapist, right. Like you're probably pretty good at building relationships, but we don't we don't think of it in that way. And so instead we say, oh, I got a, you know, I got a post on Facebook, I got to build a logo because think of that as marketing. But actually, if you can, if you can create these referral relationships, that tends to be one of the most powerful and effective things. But but the key.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:07:51  And you know, this won't be the main focus. But just briefly, the key is to not build referral relationships with other therapists because they're mostly going to keep their clients for themselves. But to build referral relationships with other, groups or professionals who who you could really help or solve a problem for. Like one of the best examples I've seen of this is a client that I worked with who was a specialist in grief, and so she figured out how to reach out to veterinary clinics and say, hey, you know, it must be awful when when a, you know, a pet parent has to lose their pet and they're grieving and you as a vet, you don't, you know, you're not trained for this. You don't know what to do. But I'm a specialist in grief. I know specifically about pet grief. If you can refer people over to me, then I can. I can help them, and you'll have something to offer in those moments where somebody is in your office and they're really grieving.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:08:43  And that was tremendous for her. Practice didn't cost her a dime to do it, but because she she figured out how to meet a need for somebody else and build a relationship. She was marketing in a lane that nobody else was thinking of. There was a hundred different people in her area that were on Facebook, you know, or trying to run their own Google ads, but nobody was thinking of actually building a relationship and reaching out and trying to meet a need with with somebody who could refer to her. So that that I think is the, you know, for right now, I think that that's the untapped strategy that I, I, you know, if you're not going to hire a professional to kind of do it for you, that's the biggest thing that you can do on your own.

Joe Sanok 00:09:23  I love that. Now when did you start thinking about wanting to do keynote speaking and kind of leveling up your speaker game.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:09:31  Yeah. So there's this old saying about you know, what it means to go bankrupt, which is like you go bankrupt slowly and then all at once.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:09:41  And I think that that's true of a lot of things in life because my my speaker journey. You could in some ways put it back, you know, starting almost a decade ago, when I just sort of wanted to, you know, get better at communication. And so I signed up for Toastmasters, I signed up for improv theater. and that led me to ultimately throw my name in the hat for a TEDx and be able to be accepted to share my story. And then when, when I started to see the response that I was getting, I was like, oh, this is something that I could really do, but but for a number of years, like, I would, I would speak, but it would be, you know, relatively small scale, right? Like I might have some nonprofit that wants me to come in and talk to, you know, ten teachers about, you know, autism or mental health or something like that. But then over the last couple of years, I really, I think, tried to pivot into, you know, I love the speaking, but how can I make it more of a part of my my deepest professional impact? And also, how can I how can I allow there to be, you know, some income attached to this so that I really can justify putting in the time and effort to, to make this as effective as it possibly could be.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:11:01  And so I think that the pivot that I did, I think it was it was two things. One is that I, I came out co-authored with my best friend Kyler. We, we put out a book on neurodiversity and the Myth of Normal that was actually commissioned through audible. but that I think the process of writing a book didn't just, I think, really credential me as, as an expert, but it also forced me to sit down and think a lot about my ideas and what I wanted to say. And so then it gave me, I think, a story that I could bring to organizations to say, hey, this is this is why I'm able to really help you. And it gave me something to offer that wasn't surface level wasn't something that I thought of five minutes before, but that was valuable in a way that I think was uncommon for them. and so that allowed.

Joe Sanok 00:11:51  Yeah. I want to pause right there, because I think that in writing a book, I totally agree with you that the process of structuring what you're going to say, but also what you're not going to say, like you have to leave out so many ideas, like, I imagine when it comes to productivity and slowing down in the four day workweek, there's probably five more books I could have written, but I didn't.

Joe Sanok 00:12:13  You know, Thursday is the new Friday had to be a certain length. And, you know, for your book, same sort of thing where it's like deciding what you're going to put in, deciding what you're going to pull out, where you're going, what's the tone going to be, I think really does position you to do keynotes differently than someone that's not an author. when you were going through that process, what was it like to decide what was in and what was out?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:12:36  Yeah, that's a great question. I, I think that the biggest question that I was that I was trying to answer is, is how do I bring something new into this conversation? because I certainly, you know, wasn't the first person to think of the idea of neurodiversity. I wasn't even the first autistic person to be writing about autism and neurodiversity. So sort of what what could I bring that was unique and valuable? And I think that if I was like, somebody else has already said this, then I tried to set that aside.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:13:06  and then I think that the other thing that I thought about is what, like, I kind of imagined an audience and in my case, the audience was really me. Like, if I, you know, earlier in my life, when I knew less about myself, what would I really have wanted to know? and if something I think really resonated with that idea of, of the, the younger or the child Dan really needing to hear this, then I was like, well, then somebody else probably really needs to hear this. And that's the thing that's going to go in the book. And if I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't have cared, then maybe somebody else wouldn't have cared either. And I think that that's, Yeah, that was a big, big, big part of of what allowed me to focus in on the ideas that I think were the most resonant, which, yeah, I think also was part of why the speaking got such a big response.

Joe Sanok 00:13:56  Yeah. So what were some of your first steps when you kind of started moving that direction? You write the book? you know, I know that I've had, like the speaker lab on here, other kind of, speakers that helped train you to get keynotes.

Joe Sanok 00:14:12  Like, did you do any trainings or, like, how did you figure out how to go from writing a book to then eventually speaking at Google?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:14:20  Yeah. So so I think that that the first part of it was, was learning how to kind of tell the story of myself. So I, I revamped my website from kind of where it was of like a, I like a, you know, early career psychologist or whatever to being like, I want to tell the story of how I'm an expert, because that's a true story. But that's a, that requires this leap of being willing to kind of have confidence in myself. and so I thought about, you know, what are some of the things that I've done that somebody else might find impressive? And what are some of the value that I can bring? And I tried to, like, rewrite it. in that way, I also reached out to some of the contacts that I had kind of built along the way. So I've done some, work for the American Psychological Association, for instance, when I was a grad student.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:15:09  I reached out to them. I tried to to see are there to kind of get get back into this. Are there some speaking things that I could do for them? because then if I can say, oh, I spoke for the American Psychological Association, well, then somebody else is maybe going to give me a chance. And then now I've got two people that will vouch for me, and then a third person will give me a chance even easier. And I could kind of grow from there. I think the other thing that I did, honestly, is that I leveraged some of my skills from the from the marketing world. And I set up an advertising campaign. and I figured out some of the things that people, especially in the corporate world, might be searching for, with a speaker. And then I was able to reach those people at the moment that they were looking for me. and I think that that was part of what allowed me to, get in front of people that might otherwise not have not have considered me.

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Dr. Dan Wendler 00:17:07  Yeah, that's a great question. I think one of the one of the big things that I found challenging is, I think the willingness to, I think, level up my perception of myself and, and trust, I think some of my capabilities in spaces that were new, like there was one particular speaking engagement that I went to last year where they they reached out to me and it was it was one of the biggest audiences that I would ever speak for.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:17:40  And they were like, hey, our guest speaker was was the musician will.i.am, who is going to be talking about his autism or, sorry, going to be talking about his ADHD. He had to leave last minute. Would you like to step into his place and take over? And I'm like, oh my goodness. Like, you know, he's this like incredible musician famous guy. Like, who am I to be able to go in and like, speak in his place? And so then there was a temptation to like to to say no or to or to downplay that and be like, oh, like, I don't know if you really want me or whatever, but instead I was like, you know what? Like what an incredible, like what an incredible possibility for impact. And that was the thing that I think encouraged me was to be like, it's not about me, it's about my message. It's about the content that I could bring. And is there somebody there that I could really help and serve? And as I thought through it, the answer was yes.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:18:31  And so I took the gig and I got a standing ovation. and so like, you know, take that will. I am like, I'm just as good as you, at least in that I, I don't, you know, I should never fight him in the, in the music arena or anything, but I think that that moving past that internal barrier and being willing to say, yes, I'll give it a shot. I think that was one of the major, one of the major challenges. and then I think that the other major challenge was being willing to, I think, attune what I offer to sort of like the needs of the market, because I think that when I was first trying to put out my speaking stuff, I was like, I'm a psychologist, so I can speak on all sorts of things. But then what I found is that the real need and demand was was largely around neurodiversity. at least at least that was the demand that people wanted from me based on my story and whatever.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:19:26  Maybe for another, you know, therapist, it would be something different. Friend. But but being willing to, like, set aside some of the other things and being like, I'm going to double down on where I can make the biggest splash and where people have the biggest need and desire. That, I think, was the other thing I had to kind of learn.

Joe Sanok 00:19:43  Yeah. Now that will.i.am situation like I feel like the negative self-talk a lot of people would have had, you probably really had to overcome that last minute thing. but I feel like so often I hear from people that say, you know, I was prepared and there was a last minute cancellation, and then I got a breakout session, and the 20 people that were in the breakout session that I said yes to at this conference I was at, not planning to speak at, loved it and told the the, you know, conference planner. And the next year I was the keynote or like things like stories like that seem like just being prepared for the moment and saying, yes, you know, I was interviewing, Daniel Pink and, you know, Dan Pink is, you know, a great business author.

Joe Sanok 00:20:28  And, he, he was talking about how when he was interning at the white House, someone asked who had, who had experience and was willing to write a speech for al Gore about the environment and all these, you know, interns from colleges. No one raised their hand. He raised his hand, and he got the speech, and he had no idea what he was doing. He had never written a presidential or a vice presidential speech. He had never written a speech specifically on the environment. But he's like no one else raised their hand. So I'm like, I'll try. And, you know, it's like those moments when you say, yeah, I'm going to do my best, and I'm going to try and I'm going to try to be as prepared as possible, but also some of it's learning as you go. and last minute, you know, the adrenaline might help you. It might hurt you. it does seem like sometimes, you know, that proceeding until apprehended, can really be beneficial, when you're looking to level up.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:21:24  yeah, I think the thing that it, I mean, we were just sort of. You know, Joe, you and I were talking before the interview started about, you know, some of our shared experience and improv and one of those, you know, one of the core principles of improv being being the willingness to say, yes. and then and then to add to that. And I think that that's one of the, you know, one of the things that helps people really be successful is to say yes. And one of the things that I often talk about in my neurodiversity trainings is the difference between capability and qualification. And, you know, qualification is just like, have I done it before? Do I have a piece of paper saying, I can do this? But capability is is can I do this? And we are we are often far more capable than we are qualified. And being willing to trust that being willing to say, yeah, I've never written this speech, I've never stood on the stage, but maybe I'm capable.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:22:12  I'm going to raise my hand. I'm going to say yes, that that in many cases is what what sparks that, that journey. Yeah. Like like even thinking way back to my very first professional speaking gig, you know, ten years ago, if I had, I had no idea that I was I was certainly not qualified for this. But but I had the opportunity. I said yes, and that launched me on this whole journey.

Joe Sanok 00:22:36  Now, when you think about the Googles, the Harvards, the like, I'm sure you're going to have even bigger things in the future. Do most of those gigs come from them finding you or is it, you know, usually you reaching out to them?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:22:49  Yeah. So what I would say is that I at that level, it's normally people finding me. and you know, sometimes it's they, they, you know, are doing a search. I come up and then sometimes it's exactly what you're describing of like every performance being an audition where, where they saw me at another conference or they heard a colleague at another organization, you know, listen to me talk and sung my praises or something like that.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:23:16  And so, when I was starting out as a speaker, I absolutely needed to do the bird dog thing of reaching out to organizations, conferences, whatever, and just sort of. Saying, hey, here's what I bring to the table. Would I, would I be able to maybe speak there? but then I think once you get to a certain level, then people start coming to you more, which is a nice change.

Joe Sanok 00:23:40  Yeah. Yeah. I think that that kind of in between time is where a lot of therapists, struggle because I think maybe there's different phases and you can tell me if you agree with these phases. I think there's like the phase of realizing what you're doing in sessions actually might have some value outside of the sessions. it seems like the next phase is in determining how do I want to take what's happening in sessions and bring it to the world? Is that through social media? Is that through E courses? Is that through speaking? Is that a book? and then there's this.

Joe Sanok 00:24:11  Okay. Now what? I want to be a public speaker. So I'm going to start over again and, you know, go talk to rotary locally when my practice is thriving. And I know I'm making X number of hundreds of dollars per hour, as you went through that phase of kind of starting over because you have the successful marketing company for therapists. what is that looked like to, you know, almost start a new business from scratch with some of this?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:24:36  Yeah, that's a great question. It's and I think that that's probably one of the bigger one of the bigger hurdles to, to get over is because we you know, as therapists, we've invested a lot of time, a lot of money into kind of gaining a strong expertise in something. Right. Like, you know, not that anybody ever feels completely confident in the therapy chair, but but you know, we get pretty good at it, at least hopefully we do. but then, yeah, to reinvent, to be an amateur again.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:25:08  like, that's a challenging thing because of how it, it it's really an identity threat, right. Like who? You know. You know who you are as a therapist, as a psychologist, as a counselor. But but who are you? If you're standing on stage at the Rotary Club and there's three people in the audience, and one of them is your mom, right. Like, And so I think I think for myself, I think that there is there's two things that really helped with that. I think, I think one part was, again, kind of going back to this idea of, of the mission and the impact. And I and I think a lot in terms of the power of one. Like if there's one person that I can impact with this, then it'll be worth it, right? You know, maybe there are three people in the Rotary Club, but maybe one of them, their life is going to be a little bit different, because what I can bring, that's enough to kind of get me on stage and be willing to push through some of the initial challenges.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:26:01  Or, you know, I just started up a YouTube channel. I'm getting not a lot of views, you know, that's bringing up a lot of anxiety. but I think, well, sometimes I get a comment and one person benefited from what I saw and I can put that out there. So I think that that's the first thing is that power of one. And then I think the second thing is, is to try to adopt a little bit of an attitude of playfulness, to kind of say that this is not this is not a statement on my value as a human being, whether or not I can do this or whether or not I can get a standing ovation. But this is this is a life experience. This is something that I can I can have fun with. I can be creative with that. This is something that if I if I treat it as an opportunity to play, then as long as I'm having fun, I'm winning, even if the audience doesn't like me. and that, I think, has allowed me to kind of move into it with sort of a looseness and an openness, sort of just to receive whatever the moment has for me.

Joe Sanok 00:26:59  What would you suggest if people want to start moving specifically into speaking more? after they kind of feel like they have a decent keynote. They've done some of the local things. What would you suggest they do to start to kind of get to that next level, to get into some conferences that are kind of along the path that they want to went ahead.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:27:18  Yeah. So I think I think you're like, once you've done the Rotary Club, whatever. Once you feel like again that that capability, if I got on a stage I could, I could, you know, present. Well, I've got something of value to offer. I think that the main, the main thing is to build credibility by giving stuff away for free. So reach out to conferences that seem, you know, like they could be a fit and just offer to do a talk. And if they don't want to pay you, that's fine. But be able to get a little bit of a reputation, you know, reach out to podcasts or, you know, appear on, you know, a YouTube channel or something like that.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:27:56  But then once you have that, then I think that the key is to, to start, recognising the value that you bring and be willing to, to start, ask for like asking for some paid opportunities and, be willing to, to ask for, I think more than you think. Because like, speaker fees are always negotiable and you can go in. You can say, this is my standard rate, you know, but I want to make this work. And then they'll come back and they'll say, okay, well, this is what I can do, and you can maybe modify what you're offering to kind of fit that. But I think, I think that doing, doing the jump of being willing to reach out and go after the paid gigs, I think is critical. And then I think that the the other thing that I would say is to find a way, to allow people to come to you because it can only skill so far. If you're always the one that is doing the reach outs.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:28:50  And so whether that is a social media presence, whether that is, you know, advertising, whether that is, you know, popping on a lot of, you know, being a guest on a lot of places, I think that it's critical to find a way for your potential audience of whoever you want to have hire you for speaking, to be able to see your work, so that they can start reaching out to you, I think would be the next step.

Joe Sanok 00:29:15  Now I'm wondering for you personally how did you balance, you know, having the business that's making the money and the kind of gamble of starting to do keynotes. How do you divide up your time. How do you think through that. Like were you kind of some people will say I'll give it six months. I'll give it two years. Like, how did you find that balance between keeping the business plates spinning and trying something new?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:29:37  Yeah. I think that there I mean, at first I didn't do it. Well, at first I think the way that I tried to do that was to just keep adding onto my plate.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:29:48  And so then there was, you know, a period of time where I was getting stressed pretty thin. I was getting a little burned out. I was not taken as good of care of, you know, my health or my personal goals as I wanted to, because I was just working all the time to try to get the speaking stuff off the ground while still maintaining the marketing business, and still seeing therapy clients at the same time. I was kind of doing a lot of things. I think that the thing that really, really helped me, was sort of asking myself this question of, what what feels most important and most exciting to me and being willing to sit with this idea that, like, it's this deep life passion of mine to get launched as a speaker. And that's not going to happen unless I'm willing to make it a priority. And so I think that that allowed me to both, you know, say I have to say no to some things and being willing to do that. And then I think more so, being willing to delegate some things because I had I had started to recruit a team, I had brought on some capable people, but I was still kind of keeping a firm grip on a lot of components of the business, just because I'd been the one to do that all this time.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:31:02  And then I think realizing that, you know what, if I want to move to the next level, I have to trust people at the next level and being willing to move more into delegating, empowering my team, I think. Then that allowed me to free up more time. That I could focus more on the speaking.

Joe Sanok 00:31:18  Such good advice. And the last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:31:27  I think the biggest thing that I would say, is to not wait. if if there is something, a dream of yours that you were reminded of as you were listening to this talk, and hearing me kind of going for my dream of being a speaker. If, if maybe it's speaking, maybe it's, you know, you want to be a world class polka dancer or whatever it is, but if there's a dream that you have, but you're thinking, oh, I'll do it when you know I'll do it.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:31:54  When I finished my, you know, this training, I'll do it next year. I'll do it when the kids have reached this milestone, I would just say, don't wait, because there's always going to be another obstacle. There's always going to be something else that pushes the can further down the road. And you just have no idea how much time you have, or if the opportunity window will one day close. And so if there is a dream that you have, even if you don't feel like you're good enough to do it, even if you don't feel like now is the right time. Don't wait. Go out and try to give it a try. And even if you kind of fall flat on your face, I think you'll still be grateful that you gave it a shot. And hey, if there's one person that is impacted by what you do that likes your polka dancing, that makes it worth it.

Joe Sanok 00:32:35  Such great advice, Dan. If people want to connect with you for marketing or for keynotes, where should we send them?

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:32:41  Yeah.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:32:41  So if they want to learn about marketing, marketing for therapists.org has all the info about what my team and I can offer. And then if you go to Daniel Wendler comm, you can learn about my speaking, my writing, follow my my little YouTube channel. That's just getting started. And yeah, if there's any questions that people have coming out of this episode, if they send an email through the contact form, I always try to respond to those personally.

Joe Sanok 00:33:06  So awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Dr. Dan Wendler 00:33:10  Thank you for having me.

Joe Sanok 00:33:19  You know, whatever your dream is, that goes beyond what you're doing now. you know, think through it. Think through what those next steps are, what can help you step into that to just get some information. You know, I'm always, you know, with a lot of the consulting clients, I'm always talking with them about how, we want to test things out. and so, you know, take some time to test it.

Joe Sanok 00:33:43  You know, just start doing some Facebook lives. start doing some Instagram Live TikTok. start talking about the topic that you want to be a keynote speaker on. you don't have to spend $10,000 making an e-course. just get some information first. get some data back as to whether you like it, whether, people resonate with it. and then, you know, take those next steps into it. We could not do this show without our partners and sessions. Seitz is our newest partner. They help you optimize your website. They help make your website designed for engagement even better. Your site's going to be live in three weeks. So whether you haven't touched it in years or you're starting from scratch, they have an awesome deal going on. Just head on over to session sites again, that session sites to get that website that you absolutely deserve. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I'll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band, Silence is sexy for that intro music, and this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered.

Joe Sanok 00:34:50  It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.