GORDON BREWER INTERVIEWS JOE SANOK ON RUNNING A BUSINESS
POP 317

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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok – Session Number 317.

INTRODUCTION

[JOE]
Well, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. If you’re new, I’m Joe Sanok. Nice to meet you. My business is all about helping people start, grow, and scale private practices. But, in reality, it’s all about helping people a better life to really slow down and to have a really great innovative ideas to optimize our practices so that we’re not just exchanging time and a chair for money, which isn’t bad, but we want to keep leveling up, and go after those big ideas. But then, to also have time to relax and have fun with our families. Just last night, I went paddle boarding instead with my friends Pete and Marty.
We went down to the beach and went out to this brewery and just had great conversations. There’s something about paddle boarding that, you know when the waves come, and you feel like you’re going to fall in, even though if I fell in, even if the water’s cold, it wouldn’t be the end of the world. It’s just kind of terrifying but there’s something about it. It’s just that challenge of kind of walking on water. Pete owns this great brewery called The Workshop Brewery. And, he and I are launching another podcast together that I will tell you about in future episodes. But, you know, to just sit there and watch the sunset, and sit on the beach, and talk about all sorts of different things, we need those times to remove our brains from our business and our day-to-day life, our kids, and all the responsibilities of adulting. To just step back, to have time with our partners, with our friends by ourselves, you know,
Slow Down School is coming up soon. I think by that time, this episode airs, it will already have occurred. And, Slow Down School is this creative event where high-achieving therapists come together. We slow down a little bit, kind of get some clarity on our issues, on what we need to work on. And then, we work together to really go after, to kill it after those big ideas. So, by the time this goes live, I’ll be done with Slow Down School. And, I’ll be slowing down that week after Slow Down School.
Today the podcast, it’s a reversed interview. Gordon Brewer had me back on his podcast. And, we talked about all sorts of different things. We talked about business. We talked about life. And, it’s a really fun interview. It’s fun when I can do this reversed podcast because people like Gordon asks me questions that I never think to talk about on my podcast. So, without any further ado, I give you Gordon Brewer interviewing the one, the only, never-replicated Joe Sanok.
[GORDON]
Well, folks, I am so excited to have the one and only Joe Sanok with me today. I was (inaudible) about Joe. I got to tell. I started listening to the Practice of the Practice podcast about 2 years ago. And, I never would have dreamed that I would have my own podcast. The rock star Joe Sanok would be on my podcast. This has just been… Joe and I have developed a great relationship over the last year and in fact, Joe is my private practice coach and mentor. And so, Joe welcome. Thanks for being here.
[JOE]
Thanks so much, Gordon. It’s been so fun to develop a friendship with you and to have met in person while I was down in Ashville and to just see how much you’ve done in a year. I can’t believe it’s only been a year since we met in person. But, you’re rocking it out.
[GORDON]
Yeah, it is crazy. I know this speaks to me of the value of having a coach and a mentor as I’m growing my practice and also grow the practice of therapy, just that whole consulting side of things. I know you’ve been a big help to me, in helping give me some direction. In fact, I’ll mention that right now, one of Joe’s Next Level Mastermind Group. Joe, tell us about that and maybe just as I start with most folks on the podcast, tell us a little bit about your private practice journey and how you’ve come to be where you are and more about the Practice of the Practice.

PRACTICE OF THE PRACTICE

[JOE]
Yes. I have Mental Wellness Counseling, which is a group practice in Traverse City, Michigan. If you put picture Michigan like a hand like all of us Michiganders, it’s up by the pinky of the hand. It’s rare on the water. It’s a beautiful little town up here with lots of breweries, wineries, and restaurants. It’s home for me, Christina, my wife, and our two daughters, our 3 and 6. And really, my private practice journey is so similar to your audience where I was working on non-profits and then level up to community mental health where I got to be on-call all the time. I got to work crazy hours with all sorts of things. I was really doing private practice on the side as a way to pay off student loans. It was just really this little side gig.
What happened is as I continue to level up my career within the kind of the non-profit and then eventually community college scene, I started getting more and more people that wanted to see me. But, I didn’t want to work 50 or 60 hours a week. So, I, out of need, brought on someone that I was supervising. He had his LLPC and brought him on. He just kind of was doing the same, paying off student loans. And then, there was another intern. She was amazing, so I brought her on as 1099. We shared this office between all of us have full-time jobs. We ended up doing evenings, weekends, and lunch hours. I looked one year, and I saw that the amount that I made in private practice was equal to the amount I have made in 40 hours a week at my full-time job. And so, I started to ask myself, “Why am I doing a 40-hour a week job and not really kind of going for this?” And of course, we can talk about all the fears of jumping from that “secure job.”
I started blogging about what I was learning in private practice because, in graduate school, we just don’t learn much about marketing, business, how do you get clients in the door. Why should we even take insurance or not? Those are just things that the average grad school doesn’t typically cover. And so, I started blogging about that and launch The Practice of the Practice podcast to explore those ideas more. But, also, because I knew that if I wanted to continue to level up my career, it would have to be outside of a small northern Michigan town. And so, that gave me a global audience. That continued to grow. But, kind of at the heart of it is we all want to grow and have an impact on the world. Grow our income, grow our influence, but it’s hard to do that sometimes when we’re working 40-50 hours a week. We’re on call. I mean, I feel freer on non-profit folks in particular.
[GORDON]
Right. Right. And, it’s a tough gig. You know, I think, one of the things that I’ve realized when I was working for a non-profit, it’s interesting. Our stories kind of parallel in a way. And then, I started up into private practice really very part-time while I was working for an agency and seeing clients in the evenings and the weekends. But, you know, one of the things that I know you’ve done is really kind of define the different levels of practice and really kind of break those down into some… To me, it’s just a very simple understandable way of knowing about private practice. So, you want to talk a little about that?

LEVELS OF PRACTICE

[JOE]
Yeah, and that’s really been us developing what’s our kind of primary vision with Practice of the Practice over the last year or so. So, we say that we help people with innovative ideas to start, grow, and scale up a private practice. Those 3 areas of start, grow, and scale has very clear indicators. It’s interesting. When I’m with a pre-consulting call with somebody, I can almost call you what their main issues are going to be based on their growth revenue is. And so, when we’re at the starting phase, really there are some habits we want to do, and we want to develop that are going to help us get to that growth phase. So, in the starting phase, you’re absolutely starting a practice. And, when we’re starting a practice, you want to keep costs low.
You want to keep your risks low. That’s what’s great about if you have a full-time job or even a part-time job whether it’s a non-profit or somewhere else. You can take risks that other people couldn’t take if they just picked up and left their job. And so, keeping… even your personal budget, your personal debt, those sorts of things low, and bootstrapping as much as you can because you have the time, time is one of your biggest assets at that phase. You can wear multiple hats. You don’t have to hire all these different times of roles yet. So, using Turbo Text for your business a couple of years until you’re really at that growth phase – around $40,000 to $50,000. And of course, you might have an accountant or an attorney look at things. But, you’re not going to have one that’s on call that’s going to cause you $100,000 a month. And so, with each of those steps, learning, reading blogs, listening to podcast like yours, Gordon, is really where you want to spend your time and your money.
Looking through all those resources that are either being given away or really low-cost, learning from people that have done it to speed up your progress, but then, also realizing, you don’t want to stay at that start-up phase mentality for very long. And so, for example, we’ve got a section called Your Next Steps or your actions on the Practice of the Practice. When you click on there, it breaks down those 3 phases. And so, we have in order what you should do. You want to name your practice. You want to file your LLC. In most states, of course, you want to consult your own attorney on that. You want to get your phone assistant setup. You want to usually sublease an office rather than take on the risk of having your own office.
There are all these really clear steps you take during that phase. And then, you move into sort of the growth phase. That’s going to be where you want to really zoom in even more on your ideal client. Of course, you want to do that when you first startup. But, you’re going to be looking at how do I reinvest a little bit of money back into the practice to make it look better. That may be a website upgrade. In the first phase, you might bootstrap it with a cheap Squarespace website or a cheap WordPress website. You might just kind of bootstrap as much as you can and use your own cellphone. But, you’re going to be reinvesting a little bit more into the practice, so you can really build that image and branding. You might get a new logo. You might start exploring hiring a virtual assistant that can answer the phones for you for a few hours a week so that you’re building that professional image and the scalability.
That’s really the mindset shift as we’re approaching the upper 5 or almost 6 figures. Up until that point, the big thing is that you’re wearing multiple hats out of necessity, out of having the time. But, that bootstrap mentality to get you to 6 figures is almost never the way that you get to melt-6 figures. And so, unless you want to burn out, and I don’t want to. Really then asking yourself kind of later in that 5 figures, why am I spending my time on this? Why am I touching this? Why is this on my plate when there are experts that I can give this too. There’re website people. There are design people.
My time now is way more valuable than the little bit of money that I would save. And so, if you’ve got an IT problem, for you to be in WordPress, trying to figure it out when you can pay an IT $50 an hour to go in there. She could go in and change things around for you while you go do a session for a $120 or $150. It’s a great use of your money. So, when we see those top practitioners that really tend to grow, they’re multiplying their time and their money by bringing on teams that are based on replacing what they used to do.
[GORDON]
It’s you know, in my own scaling, that’s something that I’ve had to really work on. It’s really learning what stuff to take off my plate and learning what are the things that I really don’t need to touch.
[JOE]
We’re just talking about that Next Level Mastermind. But, how do I figure out where to focus my time? We’re not taught that in grad school unless we have a coach or a mastermind group that’s really hard to even find somebody locally that thinks like you. And so, I don’t know how it is for you, Gordon. But, even in Traverse City, I would love to think that there’s a mecca of people that we can all work together that has this mindset. But, it’s really hard to find that community. And so, I remember we’re talking about that – The Next Level Mastermind. Do we have to really figure out what are those things that give us the biggest impact? And, usually, it’s not emailed at that level. But, even early on when you’re first starting out, when I was launching my private practice, I had to justify to myself, “Why am I spending time at this practice instead at home with my newborn?” Or, I was going through some different family issues at the time, “Why am I working on these things to bring in clients to my practice if I could be better used in my family?” And so, it really focused me early on where do I get the best ROI or return on investment for my time? So that, it moves that needle forward instead of just dinking around in the office. I have a big time in every session.
[GORDON]
Right. Right. That’s been a big shift for me. As a matter of fact, yesterday, I was getting my schedule for 2018 completely reworked. I’m very fortunate that I got a full case load. I mean I’m booked up for a month which is great. But, also, I’m not going to be able to maintain that. That’s not going to take my practice to the Next Level just to fill it up. If I kept it like that, it would just kind of stagnate. I think constantly thinking ahead, thinking about tweaks and different ways of doing things is so important for a practice. You know, one of the things I mentioned at the beginning is that for you Joe, that’s been such a huge thing for me as having you as a mentor and a coach, and really learning from the expert.
The expertise of someone that is at the next level, that has moved through that process of going from working for an agency, working, starting a private practice, do the next level. You know, in the years that you’ve been doing this, you want to talk a little bit about the value of having a coach and a mentor? Why is that so important in being able to get you to the next level?

GETTING TO THE NEXT LEVEL

[JOE]
Yeah, well, I think that anything, when someone’s done something, it’s easier for them to say, “Here’s the quick way of doing it.” I remember when I first launched my website. I couldn’t figure out how to get an image in WordPress to be centered instead of being all the way to the left as the default. It took my IT person 2 seconds to do it and to show me how. It’s nice to have someone that can actually show you how. There’s this little button that you pushed so you can see all your options. I haven’t pushed that button to be able to see that I can center this image. And so, I was going crazy figuring out how to do this. And so, to have someone that’s gone before you and done that is a really important component of continuing to level up.
For someone that just started a practice, it’s going to start to grow and to reach out whether that’s the people in your community or taking people out to lunch locally, or getting to know people in a consulting capacity, or even just purchasing tools or automation, that’s going to help you in a systematic way level up. And so, the bigger concept is we want to look at ROI return on investment. And so, at each level, your return on investment for your time is going to change. When you first started like I said you’re going to have more time that you can put into things, but then, over time that’s going to be harder and harder to justify why you should spend an hour working on a new thing. And so, we want to be monitoring how does that buying me more time?
If you hire a virtual assistant, for example, to answer your phones and to do your scheduling, that’s something I would say is one of the earliest investments someone should make in their practice because it’s almost always a multiplier. What I mean by multiplier is that it’s not an expense. If somebody says you should structure it out, someone is answering the phones and they only get paid when they pick up the phone in their scheduling. So, 15 minutes here, 15 minutes there, every month they spend, say, 10 hours on the phone and you spend $15 an hour on them. So, you’ve got $150 or $250 or so that you spend on that person. For most counselors, that’s going to be one or two counseling sessions. So, you’ve bought yourself 10-15 hours of somebody else is on the phone. You, in particular, not being on the phone or getting trapped on the phone and you’ve been able to do that by just working one or two hours. So, you’ve multiplied one or two hours times 5!
There’re all those little things that are time multipliers and then money multipliers. I invested in my own coach back in March. It was Jamie Masters from the Eventual Millionaire. And, she’s $2,500 per month for me to do two phone calls with her. If you think about it, that is so expensive. I was like, “Holy cow!” But, I can directly tie back that the amount of money I’m going to make off her advice in 2017. This is real money. Right now, it’s right around $90,000. And so, if you look at that, if I dedicated 6 months of coaching so $12,000 or so of coaching to then have made $90,000. But then, in 2018, I don’t have to keep paying her.
That’s the level I’m at. Other people might be at the level that you’re at where even spending $700 a month in coaching or in Mastermind Group, that’s a huge stretch. So, maybe, you’re not there so then you back up and keep saying, “Well, what is going to help me continue to grow and to learn so that I can have a coach, a multiplier, an investment in a virtual assistant, an investment in my website being better?” We want to look at these expenses not just as expenses but also as the potential return on investment. We’re making more because we’ve invested in it. We see value in it beyond that money just being in our pocket.
[GORDON]
Yeah, I think that’s a huge mindset shift that I work through. You know, being able to think about it more in terms of, like you said, investment rather than an expense, that’s so important especially as you think about growing. I know I’m one that is notorious for bootstrapping, which I think like you said, you absolutely need to do in the very beginning before your practice is bringing in a lot of income yet and getting that. You invest in your time on the front-end but then, as you grow, then, you’re able to invest your resources differently. The way I think about it is on the front-end, you invest a lot of time, which is what you’re investing in the practice. And then, as it grows, and you start to build your income, then, you’re investing that money into the practice.

INVESTING VS EXPENSE

[JOE]
Yeah, and I think that you’ve got to follow people and understand their mindset because there are people that won’t be a fit for everybody that are consultants. There are a lot of consultants out there that will just take your money and maybe they don’t have that expertise. I’ve noticed that in our consulting specifically for counselors. You have a lot of people jump in. And, I get to hear a lot of people’s behind the scenes stories because they’ll come to meet and want to learn how to consult it. There’s a lot of people out there that they really should be learning more before they say that they’re a consultant.
It’s unfortunate because maybe they have good marketing. They have a good whatever. But, they need to learn more before they jump into the consulting world. But, you wouldn’t know that on the surface. So, following somebody’s work, implementing what they’ve said from their free content, from maybe a small paid course, jumping on the phone with them, even some references from people that you’ve worked with, whatever the kind of result you look for, what do you hope for, those are all things that a good consultant should be able to answer for you. And, usually, the lowest price person that’s a pretty good indicator that they’re probably not worth going with because if they’re charging the same amount that you’re charging in your counseling sessions, what does that tell you? That tells you a lot of different things about them not necessarily even valuing themselves so how are they going to do then push you to value yourself more?
[GORDON]
Right. Right. I think that’s again it’s “you got what you pay for” in many ways. Yeah. So, Joe, one of the things that I know that you’ve spoken a lot about on your podcast, I actually do it with clients now. It’s the whole notion of being petrified by perfection and just the fear of stepping out. Particularly, I think about those folks that are listening to this that might be working for an agency. They’re trying to decide if they want to go into private practice and trying to decide if this is a good fit for them. Talk a little bit about that as far as taking those first steps into private practice especially those working for an agency.

FIRST STEPS INTO PRIVATE PRACTICE

[JOE]
Yeah. So, let’s start with the kind of the mindset of being paralyzed by perfection. I think the very first thing is that we’re trained to do perfection. What I mean by that is we go to grad school. We write a paper. We do research. We make sure it’s polished. We don’t turn it into a draft and then just say, “Alright, I’m good. I’m walking away from this.” No. We spend a lot of time making sure that we get the best product out there. And then, we’re given a grade, and then, that professor usually doesn’t say, “Alright, let’s keep working on this.” Now, there are some professors that are wise and have it as a process. It’s not necessarily as an end-product. But, those are few and far between.
We’re trained all the way from probably first grade until grad school so 15 or 20 years of learning. You do it, you turn it in. You’re told whether or not you pass or fail. And so, we’re up against years and years of kind of neural pathway development saying that that’s the method. And then, we jump in into the world of, say, I’ll just take one example, blogging. We all know that blogging’s one of the best ways for you to write on Google. So, people go back to what they know. They write like they’re writing a research paper. They write and want to cite every single thing. They get worried about, “Oh my, gosh. Is this research person going to come back and say you didn’t cite it?” What’s going to happen if somebody takes action and then gets bad results?
The world of blogging is much different than the world of academe. And so, that right there, you can always go back and then change a blog post. You can always go back and cite the research. You can say, “I’m still looking for this research article. I know it’s out there. I think it’s the University of Pennsylvania that did it. I’m going to do my best to cite them.” But, there was this research about XYZ that’s more important to have an imperfect action that helps us move forward, tells Google that our blogs matter, helps our website recognized than to be perfect in the action. So, we take that mindset in regard to the non-profit world when you’re starting to practice. It’s more important to me for you to keep moving forward. We just watched the movie Finding Dory with my 3-year-old and 6-year-old. There’s this “Just keep swimming. Just keep swimming.” That’s really good advice!
If you can’t figure out what you want to name your practice, just file something. The official name of my practice isn’t Mental Wellness Counseling, it’s Sanok Counseling PLLC, which is a terrible name. But, it took me about a year and a half after that to really land on Mental Wellness Counseling and it doesn’t have the URL available. And so, I then file what’s called the DBA – Doing Business Ads, Mental Wellness Counseling. It costs me a one-time $50 fee to the state of Michigan. And now, I have the name that I want. But, imagine I set around for a year and a half until I landed on Mental Wellness Counseling. I’d be a year and a half behind of where I’m at right now. So that, we want to keep moving forward with things.
Also, as you’re looking at maybe starting a practice if you’re working at a non-profit or have a full-time job or part-time job, I always found it helpful to talk with my supervisor at that job about it. Some people have better supervisors than others that are supportive and not supportive. I’ve been really lucky in my non-profit world. I had great supervisors, Lisa Thomas, Chris Heinbaugh. I wanted to give them a shutout. They’re very supportive people. And so, knowing that, I went to them and I said, “I wanted to let you know that I’m going to be doing this private practice.” A couple of my lunch hours, I’d like to scoot over there. I’m going to be super open about my time. If I have a new appointment and I leave early or come back late, I can let you know, or I can flex that time, or come in early on those days. I just want you to know what I’m doing so that if anyone asks you any question, we can open a dialogue about that.
When I was at the college, in particular, I said, “I want you to know that if I do my three to five sessions were allowed to do, if someone asks about my private practice, how do you want me to handle that?” Well, my supervisor said, “Well, you give them your name and a couple other names. And, let’s just kind of take it as a case-by-case basis.” What I ended up happening is I ended up referring people more for my private practice to go back to college. They would do that when they come to see me for a Frio over there rather than at my private practice. And so, but, to have that open dialogue so that if they get stuck where their boss or another staff. “Joe, you’ll leave it 4 on Thursdays. Oh, he has a private practice. His first session starts at 4:15PM. But, he comes in at 7 on those days instead.” I know that he’s worked through a couple lunches. They can then go to bat for you rather than putting your boss in a real kind of sticky or awkward situation.
[GORDON]
Right. Right. And, I think, I know that was the same for me when I was working for an agency. I was just really trying to par in about the fact that I was doing a private practice. What ended up happening for me was once I moved into private practice, I actually got referrals from the agency I was working for. We were working on youth. And so, they needed individual counselors for the people, some of their clients. They always referred out. That goes back to building a practice anyway, developing those relationships and the community can really help boost your private practice in those beginning stages.

THE COMMUNITY

[JOE]
Absolutely. I’m a hundred percent with you. In that open dialogue and having that planning and being open about kind of what you’re doing is I think really important. I always encourage people when they’re right out of grad school. They’d say, “Hey, Joe. I want to work at Mental Wellness Counseling.”
I actually stopped bringing people into practice that are fresh out of grad school even if they’re great clinicians. Because for me, it took a lot more to market them. And I now say to people, what I want you to do is to go find a job in the community where you can be in a bunch of different kind of leadership positions in our community. I want you to be in the suicide prevention committee. I want you to be in the poverty reduction initiative. I want you to get a job where you can get paid and network. Go do that for a year. And then, come back to me. We’ll get coffee and talk about it if you’re a fit for what I’m looking for at Mental Wellness Counseling. That are a few things for me.
It weeds out people that are really dedicated and really don’t want to put in the time. Someone says, “I followed your advice. I went and did that. I wanted to let you know that I just got hired at Child and Family Services. I’ll be here for a year. But, I’d love to get coffee in 6 months.” That’s way different in regard to my perception of them and their follow-through than someone that just disappears.” That saves me a ton of time.
[GORDON]
Right. Right. So, in thinking about the mindset for private practice, what would you say would be the characteristics of a clinician that would be perfect for private practice?
[JOE]
Well, I think first good clinical work, of course.
[GORDON]
Obviously, yeah.

CONTRACTOR

[JOE]
Start there. You know, someone that wants to start a practice should have a desire to want to grow a business. There’s a lot that goes into a private practice that has nothing to do with the clients. So, if you want to do a private practice, it may be worth it to first start with being a 1099 contractor for another practice to just see if you like it. You know, every Tuesday night, in 3 or 4 clients, kind of moonlight, make a little money to see if you like it first if you already have a full-time job. Because if you’re going to launch a practice, it may be a bit before you bring in much money. And, there’s a lot of time that goes into setting up your website, your branding.
With that said, I have a friend in Kalamazoo that wee a couple of hours. He’s got his website going. I gave him some kind of tips and tricks. He was driving Uber to make money on the side. I’m like, Chris, what are you doing? You’re making like $15 an hour. You could do one session a week and make more than you make in an entire Halloween weekend. And so, he’d never even considered opening a practice. I actually pushed him for years to do it. And, I wrote a blog post about it afterward just because it was just basically a checklist for him on how to launch a practice. And, last week, he had an $800 a week and that’s outside of his full-time job.
If you’re working at a typical non-profit, you’re making $1,000 to $2,000 every other week in your paycheck. And so, if you have an $800 week, you’ve just made about the same as you would in your non-profit job. So, I think, having a desire to impact the world differently, be your own boss, call up the shots, be able to have ideas that you ran with, be on just even, you know, sitting and doing counseling, and then also saying, “You know, I want to have some structure around this to develop what I want to do develop.” I think a lot of the components to consider but there are people that are your kind of typical social work type that have big hearts that don’t have any business skills. And, they’re highly successful too because people love them when they’re in the community. They’re just people that are liked. And so, one of the biggest things is to people like you. And, for most counselors, we’re good at listening. We’re good at kind of chatting it up with people. And so, most of us would be really good private practice.
[GORDON]
Yes, yes. Well, Joe, I know, I very much appreciate one of the things about you and the way that you’ve done Practice of the Practice is that you’re very transparent about what you do. And, you’ve really done a lot of great things, and sharing, and promoting not only private practice but just our profession in general. And, I think, that’s something again that is very important to keep in mind is that if you’re doing it just to make money, making money is important but if you’re doing it just to make money, you’re probably not going to do well in the long-run. So, but, Joe, I know you’ve got a busy day ahead. I know I do too. And, I have so much appreciation. I very much appreciate the fact that you took the time to come on the podcast and being there to help me in my process of building the practice of therapy. So, thanks again, Joe. Tell folks how they can get in touch with you and all of your things.
[JOE]
Yeah, yeah. I’d love to give a free gift to your audience, Gordon. Because I know a lot of the people that are listening are at that starting phase if they just go over the practiceofthepractice.com/start. They’ll get my 20-step checklist and it’s really aimed at helping people develop the kind of practice that they want to with all of the stress and hassle. And, you really know what the next step is. It just streamlines that whole process. So, that’s at practiceofthepractice.com/start. And, we did reference that Next Level Mastermind group. And so, if people want to apply for that, it’s only for people that are above $60,000 gross. So, people that may be a little farther down their journey, they can just apply for that at practiceofthepractice.com/nextlevelmastermind.
[GORDON]
Perfect. Perfect. And, I’ll put all this in the show notes for this podcast. So, Joe, thanks again for joining me and hopefully, we can have more conversations in the future and maybe hit you on here again.
[JOE]
Sounds great. Thanks so much, Gordon. Love what you are doing here.
[GORDON]
Thanks, Joe.
[JOE]
Some interesting actions you’re going to take today, I say this frequently, but I will like it just needs to be reiterated over and over because so often, people will listen to the podcast. Myself included I’ll listen to podcasts: Allison’s podcast, Story Brand podcast, Entrepreneur on Fire podcast, Smart Passive Income, even Sam Harris’s podcast, which is more kind of philosophical and science-based. So, you’ll consume this information and we don’t anything with it, we don’t take action.
Just about a week ago, I started trying to meditate every day. I’m pretty good at it but it’s amazing for me to just see in doing that little micro act each day of meditating for 10 minutes or 15 minutes to grow that skill, how much I just craved it now. And, you can do that too. So, do something. And, if you need to set up your Electronic Medical Records, go over to therapynotes.com and use code “joe18” to get 2 months free. Again, that’s “joe18” over at therapynotes.com. Thanks for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have an awesome week. I’ll talk to you soon.

[This podcast is designed to provide accurate and intuitive information in regard to the subject matter covered. It’s given to the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinic, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one. And, thanks to the band Silence is Sexy. We love your intro music!]