• Visit Hillary’s website and connect on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn.

Joe Sanok 00:00:00  We all know how tough it can be to collect supervision hours. That's why my friend and fellow therapist, Rachel, created motivo making clinical supervision easy and accessible with over 1200 vetted supervisors nationwide. I know you'll be able to find a supervisor that's right for you. Get started today at Motivo health. That's what I o health. This is the practice of the Practice podcast with Joe. Session number 1220. I'm Joe, your host, and welcome to the practice of the Practice Podcast, where we help you build a thriving private practice you absolutely love. We do this through our membership community, through this podcast, through consulting, our event that we did last May. The group practice boss conference here in Traverse City, Michigan. We tried to just bring people together, in ways that are just super fun and exciting and different than just your typical business development. We want you to love your practice. we've been interviewing people, just throughout this season that have done really just amazing things. mostly in the sports world.

Joe Sanok 00:01:23  And for me to bring these together and say, well, how does this affect private practice? I think some people, you know, there's a lot of podcasts out there that are just the business side of counseling and the business side of running your practice. But I'm a curious person. I think that, we too often are in these information silos where we don't even realize how much we can learn from other areas. I remember I was reading one of, I think it was Malcolm Gladwell's books, and he was talking about how, there was an er in Britain, that they found that the transfer of patients was when the biggest mistakes happened, and they actually went and they trained with a like Formula One pit crew to see how they changed tires. and they then applied those things back to the air and they're like. Error rate just dropped. They were doing better work in the air because of training with a pit crew. You know, Mac has famously for their genius bar. They went and trained with concierges at hotels.

Joe Sanok 00:02:14  And so to me, talking to people outside of our industry, it's interesting how often things overlap. And mindsets there are very similar to mindsets that we see. So that's why I'm so excited to have Hillary Allen with us. Hillary is a professional ultrarunner scientist and coach known for her resilience and grit in the sport of trail and mountain running. Nicknamed the Hillary Goat or no, the Billy goat like Billy Goat, I should. I read that ahead of time and knew I was going to screw it up. The Hilly goat for her strength on steep terrain, she was among the top mountain runners in the world before a life altering accident in 2017, when she fell 150ft during a race in Norway. Despite severe injuries, including multiple fractures, she defied the odds with an incredible recovery. returning to elite competition. Hillary now shares her journey through coaching, public speaking and her book out and back. Inspiring athletes to embrace setbacks as opportunities to grow. Hilary, welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast.

Hillary Allen 00:03:13  Hi.

Hillary Allen 00:03:13  I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Joe Sanok 00:03:15  Oh, I am so excited to have you on the show. you know, tell me a little bit about, you know, starting out in science before endurance racing and then like, how did you get into ultra racing and extreme challenges?

Hillary Allen 00:03:28  Yeah. Well, you know, looking back, it seems like it makes sense to me, but probably, honestly, the most, appropriate way to describe it is kind of by accident. I, I grew up in Colorado. I've always been, you know, an outdoorsy person. but I was always a scientist first. In fact, I probably would describe myself more as a as a super nerd than than more of an athlete. running and moving outdoors is kind of a way to, just get out energy and, you know, kind of think about scientific problems. but it was kind of it wasn't actually until, you know, graduate school that I actually started really specifically endurance running. I was a tennis player in college.

Hillary Allen 00:04:12  but it was always my childhood dream to be a scientist. Like, my father and my mother were both scientists over at Colorado State University. and so, I think, you know, I always looked up to them. And so that was just my North star of always working towards something, of going to graduate school, getting my PhD. And, yeah. So it wasn't until I was actually in graduate school and a PhD program for neuroscience and physiology, that I kind of happened upon this world of trail and ultrarunning, and I was basically just using it as a time to, get out of the lab. Kind of like I said, think about these scientific problems, explore like the physical realm of of of of myself, as opposed to like the intellectual realm. And, I just I honestly just fell in love with it. And I got training for my first road marathon. And in in doing so, I, found trail running and ultra running and, you know, since then, I kind of never, never looked back.

Hillary Allen 00:05:16  and then, yeah, I know there's there's a lot in there, but, yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:05:19  So 2017, like, you know, things go awry. Like what? Tell us how that happened and what happened.

Hillary Allen 00:05:26  Yeah. So when I. So after. Okay, so I basically got into this trail in ultrarunning and, I discovered I had this knack for it. I mean, you mentioned my nickname Hilly Goat. And, just because I love uphill, steep running, and it was the specific style of running that was called sky running that I got into. And, so to, to explain this, like in the world of trail running, basically anything trail running is anything off road. So off of just the pavement and, ultra running starts anything above a marathon. And so I ran my first road marathon and I was like, that's not far enough. Like I could go further. I still have energy and let's add some hills in there. And so I started competing in this thing called Sky running, which was 50 K trails.

Hillary Allen 00:06:10  So 31 miles and they would climb kind of the most extreme terrain out there, like up 14,000 foot peaks. some like really direct lines up of mountains. It was notorious for ridgeline running, but in a 31 mile race, you'd climb about 14,000ft and you'd have to descend it to. So, like 12 to 14,000ft. I'm pretty like technical terrain. And this quickly just became I loved it so much. And so, I kind of got just discovered again by accident, this series, and my first year racing, I won the US Sky running series, and then that kind of catapulted me onto the world Sky running series, and I was kind of exclusively racing in, in Europe because a lot of the most competitive races were over there. and, you know, this is happening quite quickly, like my first year as a sponsored runner was 2015. and in three years, by 2017, like three seasons, I was was ranked number one in the world in this world in the Sky running series. So basically, you know, I had gone all in on this.

Hillary Allen 00:07:19  I was, you know, just seeing how how far I could take this, you know, short time in your life where you can be a professional athlete. And, I would, you know, race live in Europe for the summers because that's when the racing season was. And in 2017, basically, it was the end of the season. It was the final race of the of the season, basically like a victory lap to kind of claim my title and then have the award ceremony. there was in this race in Norway and it's a very technical race, you climb up to this ridge, it's called hump, Bracken Ridge. You can see it from the skyline of Tromso and it's it's rocky. It's like third, fourth class running where you're basically having to put like a hand down or two hands down to kind of stabilize yourself. It's very steep and technical. and during this race, about in the midpoint, something happened where one minute I was running and then the next a rock slipped underneath my foot, and it catapulted me off of this ridgeline, and I ended up falling 150ft.

Speaker 3 00:08:25  Oh my God.

Hillary Allen 00:08:26  Yeah. And I mean, thankfully, obviously it had happened during the race. People saw me. But I mean, it's hard to it's hard to understand, like how lucky I was to have survived. and I mean, I had a helicopter rescue, and but, like, how I was just so severely injured. I think in total, I broke 14 bones. I had, like, surgeries in Norway. Had to stay in that hospital for two weeks before I could even fly home. Then I had, you know, three more surgeries in two days. The like the experts in, you know, CU Boulder. they boast some of the best medical doctors for sports in general. And this doctor was telling me that I would be lucky if I would be able to jog recreationally again, like some of the some of the injuries were that severe. and it's a really, humbling time to be literally at the fittest that I've ever been feeling the most capable. And, the on top of the world.

Hillary Allen 00:09:30  And then in one moment, I couldn't even get out of bed unassisted. And this thing that I'd grown to love so much and had so much self-worth, frankly, associated with it, was I felt like it was taken from me. And then I, I was also surprised how quickly I could spiral into a depression and have no idea which way was up or like what what I wanted to do with my life anymore, like who I was as a person. It was. It was incredible. but obviously looking back, there's so many things that I learned from it. And, it was really an opportunity for for growth, even though it was one of the hardest, times in my life.

Joe Sanok 00:10:10  I imagine there was like the physical healing side, whereas that as you healed, maybe that helped. But then also there had to be like an emotional like, man, do I even want to go back into this thing that almost killed me? Like, how did that back and forth between the emotional healing and the physical healing go?

Hillary Allen 00:10:27  That's a really good question because I was not really prepared for that.

Hillary Allen 00:10:30  I think as athletes, we rely so much upon our physical strength, and we can use that almost as a crutch. And I know for sure I was. And, we also get into this thing where your self-worth is dependent upon the last race that you won or that you did well in, or your last, you know, good workout. And it can be it's it's a psychological. It feels like a battleground sometimes because it's like it's not. It's all conditional, right? And so I was experiencing that in, in real time on a daily basis. And I was. Yes. But it, it overlaps so much that sometimes I couldn't actually discern which was physical and which was emotional healing. But for me, actually the hardest part of my recovery, like I said, I'm a scientist. I know the timelines of ligaments, healing of bones, healing like it was something that I had this goal that I could work towards. And I knew, okay, like six weeks, I could start to wait there in my arms or, you know, in three months I could get this cast off my foot and maybe start walking again.

Hillary Allen 00:11:38  I had little PT exercises that I could do every day, and you could see the little mini progressions, but actually wasn't until. So that all was easy because it was just a waiting game. And like, you could kind of it's like training but just in a different way. But the emotional side of things, the, you know, I had just spent the past three years going all in on on running and racing and to not have a race on the horizon, to be separated from my community because I couldn't run with them. I felt emotionally isolated. And, again, I felt like I didn't know who I was anymore or I had this, this self, this problem with self-worth outside of like, who was I if I wasn't racing or doing something? And so, the hardest part for me came when I got all my casts off and I appeared normal, but I was still unable to run and unable. I still didn't feel like my normal self. Yeah. and so that's when I really.

Hillary Allen 00:12:36  And that was kind of like six months after the initial accident where I really had to dig in and really focus on that emotional healing that I had kind of been neglecting and really focusing on the physical healing. yeah. And so I kind of that's where I had seen some sports psychologists and specifically people who specialize in trauma recovery because, I think I logically, I wanted to go back into running, but emotionally I wasn't sure because, I was just at this point where I don't think I even liked myself if I couldn't be racing or running at a certain level, and I had to work through that and really work on acceptance before I could even return to to that part of my life again.

Joe Sanok 00:13:29  What was what was helpful from the sports psychologist or the people that were helping you with the mental side of it to, to move towards getting back to, to kind of some normalcy.

Hillary Allen 00:13:40  Yeah. I mean, and honestly it's still ongoing, right, I think. I mean, you're, you know, the practice of the practice, like, that's just like the, the perfect summary of what it is to be an athlete.

Hillary Allen 00:13:52  Right? It's like I or to be a human right. It's like it's never perfect. You're never really there. It's just you have to continually show up, and fall in love with the process. Like, that's really what I had to to do. And like I said, I'm not really there, but like, it just this, this shift in perspective. So that was something that I worked on with like a sports psychologist is, really figuring out my worth outside of just results and why I really liked doing, why I liked running in general. And I began to discover that had nothing to do with any podiums or any of these medals that, you know, like, you can't really like, hang on to them and, you know, go to sleep with them at night like it's fleeting. It doesn't really matter. Right? But it's just the process that it took you, the things you learned about yourself, getting to that moment, getting to that start line and accomplishing these goals. They're so personal.

Hillary Allen 00:14:47  Like you think that other people care, but really they don't. And and really like figuring out self-worth. that's inherent, not conditional. and so really, it was a sports psychologist really helped me with that, to shift the perspective and to shift that that mindset. And then the other really valuable thing that I learned, especially from this man, at the time, I was running with the North Face and they had hired a, a counselor. Well, he was he had specialized in, like, grief and loss because there was a lot of that on the North Face team at the time, with mountaineers dying and, teammates passing away in the mountains. And so they provided that service for us as athletes to go to. And so I used him after after my fall, because I was really struggling with this grief and loss of self from my accident. And so yeah, just really trying to understand that part of me and we used a lot of, excuse me, visualization techniques. that was really important for me because as I started to get back into running, even when I was running on a flat trail, My nervous system kind of.

Hillary Allen 00:15:57  It was felt like it was on high alert. Like I remember running on a flat path for the first time after the fall, and my brain was telling myself, like, don't fall, don't fall, don't fall. And there was, you know, nothing for me to trip on. It was like a flat ground. I wasn't on a ridge like it was just, So yeah, visualization techniques helped me with that. Like breathing techniques to, to kind of calm my nervous system in times of stress. yeah. All of those things.

Joe Sanok 00:16:32  Listen, I didn't take insurance in my counseling practice because I had no idea how to handle it. The process of accepting insurance outside of a group practice can be tough, but most people looking for mental health care want to use their benefits to pay for sessions. If you're like me and you feel a little scared about taking insurance, or you just want to make it easier on yourself and you're interested in seeing clients through insurance almah can help. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates.

Joe Sanok 00:17:00  They also handle all the paperwork from eligibility checks to claim submission and guaranteed payment within two weeks. Plus, when you join Almah, you'll get access to time saving tools for intake scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes and more in their included platform. It's going to make it so much easier for your team, so you can spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit. Hello, alma. That's. Hello, all. To get started. How do you prepare now compared to before? Like when you think about going into, like, running, like things like visualization, those sorts of things you probably weren't doing as much before. like, how else do you prepare differently now?

Hillary Allen 00:17:50  Yeah. So, you know, I think the biggest thing that I prepare differently now is just like falling in love with the whole process of what it means to be an athlete, not just a runner. I think it's continuing to have, grace and to have a little bit of patience because, you know, the hardest thing is an athlete.

Hillary Allen 00:18:13  It's like it is this finite time in your life where you can kind of perform at this high level, which is beautiful, but it's also frustrating. And so, honestly, the thing.

Joe Sanok 00:18:25  I don't know, I just interviewed like 57 year old vegan ultra marathoner, that is like going like hundreds of miles.

Hillary Allen 00:18:31  So, yeah, still jarring. I mean, then that was my story, too. It's like after the fall, I actually raced races that were longer than ever raced before the the falls, and in many ways I'm actually running better. I just pride in my, my marathon time from 12 years ago from before I even fell. And you know, I've run 100 mile races in the mountains. Some of the hardest ones, like out there like Utmb. This this race in Ultra Trail, Cape Town in South Africa. but for me, the thing that's changed is like I have to approach every season differently, like, based on my motivation, because I think that's the thing. I can't just follow where, you know, others are racing, but I really have to follow my passion of where I'm excited to go so I can train and, like, get the most out of myself.

Hillary Allen 00:19:18  yeah, I've discovered different sports. In fact, I picked up cycling after, these, these accidents and injuries because I couldn't run. And then I got so good at it that I was able to join the Pinarello team and race for them. So it's like just having, like, an open perspective. I think that's that's the biggest thing that changes from year to year is really like asking myself the question, okay, what makes me excited? And then going after that, as opposed to just getting stuck in the rigidity of, you know, race, run, race, repeat?

Joe Sanok 00:19:45  Yeah. I mean, what I'm hearing is like at the beginning when you first discovered trail running and then especially like these, these peaks and kind of becoming the holy goat like it was. It was that kind of like, almost like childhood, like joy of discovering something that you're super into. Like, for me, that's improv. Like I've discovered improv five years ago and it's like, I freaking love it. and it's so weird and it's so just the people in it are just so different.

Joe Sanok 00:20:10  And it's I love it. So you had that, like, initial joy and then you got into like the competitive side. And then with the fall, it's almost like rediscovering that not just the initial joy, but a new, even like deeper version of that joy. that goes beyond just the achievement side, which I think is such a common, pattern, not just in like what you're talking about, but like starting a business, like, oh my God, I'm going to start a business. And then you get into the thick of it and it's like, oh, and then often you have a setback and then you have to rediscover like, why am I here? Like, is this version of business what I even want to do anymore? Maybe I don't want to see these counseling clients and I'm going to find that new joy. Like for me, it was selling my counseling practice and saying, I'm going to double down on podcasting and consulting. And even within that saying, okay, what I used to do two years ago isn't what I do now.

Joe Sanok 00:20:56  And that reinvention is, as you look at, just mindsets. Like what mindsets have you learned that just help you, like you said, you know, finding kind of that joy of just the process of being an athlete. What other mindsets have been helpful for you?

Hillary Allen 00:21:12  Yeah, I mean, I love everything that you just said, because that's literally what I've learned so much about being an athlete is like the why? Like rediscovering the why and then following that. Because if I feel I know if I don't have if that's not aligned for me, I'm not going to race well, no matter what race I choose, you know? So it's like I need to have those, those alignments. but the other mindsets that, I mean, I'm a huge, like person who likes to write and to journal. and so, I mean, the biggest thing, I mean, it's it's simple. Maybe it's not. It's just for mindset. It's obviously these repeated things that we say in, in our brain, like our it's basically human consciousness.

Hillary Allen 00:21:52  It's like we're thinking to ourselves and saying these things all the time, and that has power. I remember the study that I read in grad school that like, if you talk negatively to a plant, it actually, like affects its growth. And this stuff is real and and I feel like, you know, I can be my own, my own worst critic. and so it's, it's it's the, the awareness of the words that I'm saying inside my head when I get frustrated because obviously I'm not perfect. Right? no one is, but it's just the continual awareness and then being able to either write things down if they're negative and then, you know, trying to find a way to, to reframe them into some sort of positive thing. a really big thing that helped me, in my initial recovery was, writing down this mantra that was, believe in your best athletic days ahead of you. And I would start the day every day by saying that to myself and writing it physically down on a piece of paper.

Hillary Allen 00:22:49  And, it seemed silly, like I didn't, no matter how silly it seemed like when I could just, like, plop myself on the ground and do these leg lifts because I couldn't even walk unassisted or, you know, it's like it seemed so far away, but I, I wrote that down to kind of like, I felt like I was just growing this little seed and, like, nurturing it until it was ready to grow. and I've taken that and kind of like these different like, what is my mantra or something in these different times of life because, you know, I've had injuries after this accident and many setbacks. And so taking a little mantra with me, in these different periods of life, it really helps to just continually continue to, I think, protect a positive mindset because it is it is really powerful.

Joe Sanok 00:23:39  Yeah. You know, it's interesting how that mindset can, like, affect you. And sometimes, like, I think for a while I had this kind of pushback about it because it felt like the manifestation, like, oh, I want a house in Malibu and I'm going to make a vision board.

Joe Sanok 00:23:51  And it's like this self-centered capitalistic, just like.

Speaker 3 00:23:54  No.

Joe Sanok 00:23:55  Stupid. But then it's like, but then when you really think about it, that you're like speaking into your life, like what I want. Like, even just this morning, my niece. So my, my daughter and my nieces and my sister and I always walk to school together because they're all at the same elementary school, and we're like a few blocks away, and she's going to be in the talent show. And she was saying, like, I'm so nervous. I'm so nervous. And I could just tell. Like, she was getting herself more worked up by doing that. And I just like, said to her, well, how do you think you're going to feel when you're done with it? Like, are you going to feel proud of yourself or are you going to feel relieved or are you going to feel? And she's like, I'm going to feel relieved. And it was like at least to just like, focus on like it's a little better than nervous, you know, like focus on the relief you're going to feel and maybe being proud and maybe thinking you did a good job, like, but I think even as adults, like we do that all the time where, you know, we think through all this could go bad, or what if we don't get enough clients or that person doesn't like me because they made a snarky comment at a friend's dinner or whatever, like, versus, like, thinking through, okay, what do I want to kind of, like, speak into my own life?

Speaker 3 00:24:55  Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:24:55  What, like, what is your, Like, I'm sure you run a lot and keep running and, like. So that's obviously part of your habits, but, like, what habits outside of running fill your your days, your weeks, your months, like maybe quarterly or annually, like, are there just like other life habits that help you become the person you want to become?

Hillary Allen 00:25:13  Oh, I love that question. yeah. So I'm a really big I'm a really big list person. I always write a to do list, like at the end of, you know, of beginning of each day or kind of at the end of, at the end of each day to like queue up the, the next day. But yeah, of course, like the thing that I love the most about running and training and being an athlete is I feel like it's an opportunity to be the best version of myself. It's like a great day to to try, like, especially if I have an interval workout, like it's a good day to work hard, doesn't have to go perfect, but that is one of kind of, I forget the exact word that you use like this.

Hillary Allen 00:25:48  The kind of like a daily habit that I have. So it's exercise, but also, you know, training for this bigger goal. But, I also understand there's different parts of me that make me feel like a whole person. And another one is, I'm very curious. That fills the running side of things, but also like the learning I love to learn. And so I'm a huge reader. and so, my training is as an organic chemist and a chemist. And so I always love to read, new books on different topics that I'm not familiar with. And so just continuing the process of learning. So that's definitely a part of my day.

Joe Sanok 00:26:25  What are you reading right now?

Hillary Allen 00:26:26  Oh, right now I'm reading this book by Sam Kean. He's a, I think, like a science, science historian. And I'm writing, reading this book. It's called Caesar's Last Breath. It talks about, gas laws, my favorite laws, and, basically how the atmosphere came to be. and the.

Speaker 3 00:26:43  Different.

Joe Sanok 00:26:43  Gas laws, your favorite laws.

Hillary Allen 00:26:45  Oh my gosh. Because they're applicable to everything. Like gas laws mean it's how we breathe. It's like how weather is created. I mean, it's like how the tires in my bike work. like. Yeah, it's just it's amazing. We it gets kind of windy in the spring. and so I sometimes get mad at it because it's hard to run and ride in. But then I think about it in a different perspective. It's like, oh, the gases are just trying to, like, reach equilibrium and become the same temperature. So, you know, why have you mad at them?

Joe Sanok 00:27:15  What do you wish people knew or understood about gas laws?

Hillary Allen 00:27:19  What do I wish that they knew? I mean, I think there's just a lot of really cool. I mean, okay, so technology, like, not to mention this, like the steam engine, like, that thing hasn't actually changed from its invention, which is actually incredible, right? When all the like advancements of technology that we've had.

Hillary Allen 00:27:37  But the I mean, the how accessible it is, how simple it is, like the one thing I think this is in science in general, like people are scared of math or science, but really it is out your it is literally in front of you. It's like your computer. The things you can touch. You can chemistry and science in general. It's like just if you just are curious and you look around you, it's just it's right there. this is why I love running in a nutshell. Because, like, the colors that you see, that's just chemical reactions. And then, I mean, it's just everywhere, touch like tangible. You're a living, breathing science experiment. And so it's really, actually really not scary at all. It's just it's just, you know, how how how we are.

Speaker 3 00:28:19  I love that.

Joe Sanok 00:28:20  It's so cool. I mean, I think it's even when you said the wind is just the gases trying to seek equilibrium, like my mind went to, like, relationships.

Joe Sanok 00:28:28  And you just even think about how when people are windy, they're trying to seek equilibrium. They're trying to have their own personal autonomy. Like, think about the typical couple. You know, they're in a.

Speaker 3 00:28:38  Little skirmish.

Joe Sanok 00:28:39  And it's like they're trying to find that equilibrium of like, how do I find that I have enough power and autonomy and also recognize my partner. And, you know, we have different goals here and we're just winding it out.

Hillary Allen 00:28:52  I love this. Oh my gosh. That's a good perspective for me because sometimes as a scientist and I feel like it's ironic because that's how I got neuroscience is like it's so intriguing to me because I am utterly, like confused. And it's like so profound, like human emotions and the power that they can have over you and your demeanor and what you can accomplish in the world. Right. that's a really good way to think about it, because sometimes emotions and humans, like, they confuse me because I'm like, I'd rather deal with the math equation or like, go for a run, but but it's all beautiful, is what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 00:29:25  elements.

Joe Sanok 00:29:26  Seeking equilibrium.

Hillary Allen 00:29:27  I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, yeah, it's basically just trying to seek balance. Like I have my own little coaching business. I'm also so, like, learning is a big pillar in my life. you know, running an activity is a big pillar in my life. And then community is another really big one. And so it's trying to, you know, merge all of those things together on a daily basis, sometimes different periods of my life, whether I'm training for a race like or have a big important workout like, you know, that's going to take priority one day or a week or a month at a time. But it's always a constant kind of like ebb and flow of incorporating those different those pillars in on a daily basis. Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:30:06  So cool. The last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

Hillary Allen 00:30:13  That they truly make a difference? And that, I mean, one of my my, my favorite scientists of all time is Oliver Sacks.

Hillary Allen 00:30:20  And like, just how powerful, the human brain is and, how important it is to like to take care of it and help people through hard times in their life. Like, you absolutely make a difference and make the world a better place.

Joe Sanok 00:30:35  So awesome. If people want to find your work, if they want to follow your coaching or Instagram or whatever, where should we send them.

Hillary Allen 00:30:41  Yeah. So my Instagram is Billy goat climbs. So Hillary Allen and I also have a website Hillary Allen. Com and so there's a lot of, you know, cool information on there and yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:30:51  Cool. We will have links to all that in the show notes as well. Thanks so much for being on the show.

Hillary Allen 00:30:55  Thanks. It was so wonderful to chat with you.

Joe Sanok 00:31:05  You know, it's it's interviews like this that are just so exciting where I mean, we started talking about running. We, you know, injury and then we get into mindset and then we get into gas as a metaphor for relationships.

Joe Sanok 00:31:17  So I think it's just you never know where you're going to find those jewels that they can help you. And so I hope this show is part of that journey for you. I hope that this show opens you up to different ways of thinking that you can take back to your private practice, to have that thriving private practice you absolutely love. Thank you so much to alma for being our sponsor today. You know, I wish alma had been around when I had my private practice. I had no idea what I was doing. That's why I didn't take insurance. But if alma had been there, I would have. And there's no reason that as a clinician, you should be spending hours on paperwork to bill for insurance or not knowing for sure that you'll get reimbursed for sessions with your clients. If you're interested in seeing clients through insurance but don't want to navigate the process and paperwork on your own, alma can help. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates and a guaranteed payment within two weeks.

Joe Sanok 00:32:11  Visit. Hello, alma. That's. Hello, al. Emma, to get started. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I'll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band. Silence is sexy for that intro music. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.