Andrew Burdette 00:00:00 The growing Group practice podcast is part of the practice of the Practice Network, a network of podcasts to help you grow, manage and promote your business and yourself. To hear the other podcasts like The Practice of the Practice Podcast, go to practice at the practice.com backslash network. You’re listening to the grow a Group Practice podcast, a podcast focused on helping people start, grow, and scale a group practice. Each week you’ll hear topics that are relevant to group practice owners. I’m Andrew Burdette, a practice owner, and I love to hear from people, their stories, and real life experiences. Andrew Burdette 00:00:41 Let’s get started. Andrew Burdette 00:00:59 Hello and thanks again for tuning in to the grow Group Practice podcast. Today I’m here with Matt Fowler, owner of Old Port Counseling, a group practice up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, who works with children and families primarily and also a graduate of the group Practice Launch program with practice of the practice. So welcome to the show. Like always, I like to ask guests to kind of give a little intro of themselves before we get started and talk about hiring practices and recruitment and messaging and all of those other fun topics. Andrew Burdette 00:01:28 So welcome to the show. Matt Fowler 00:01:30 Great. Thank you for having me. Andrew Burdette 00:01:32 I guess, how did you end up becoming or forming a group practice and maybe what’s the backstory to that? Matt Fowler 00:01:37 So I ended up it’s having a group practice was always something that was has been in the back of my mind. I went into private practice in 2019 just before all the fun started in 2020. And so I, I went into that just with the idea of like getting my feet established in private practice. I had already been in practice previously at a community mental health center for quite some time, and so that was just around the time that I felt like it was a great time to get started. For me, it was about 2019 and then in 2020, what ended up happening is, you know, the pandemic happened, but I was in an office suite with about two other clinicians and they ended up leaving the building. They didn’t end up needing it anymore. So they they transitioned out and went to telehealth. And it was sort of this moment of, you know, if I’m going to to do this, I mean, they’re going to end up needing to to move because I was going to lose my waiting room area or I’m going to take on these other couple of offices and start my group practice, probably a little bit sooner than I had planned in my mind. Matt Fowler 00:02:43 But it was at a moment where I was just like, all right, like, this is the moment we’re going to do it and just get started. And that’s when I started putting the practice together. Andrew Burdette 00:02:52 Interesting. So it was it was a logistical decision more than anything about I’m either going to lose my office space early like, or I need to find roommates, which, as I talked to different people about the different phases of growth and in private practice and growing into a group, I kind of use the roommate analogy to where we all start with like a studio apartment or renting a bedroom somewhere, and then you kind of move into bigger spaces and each of those growth phase, you need to find more roommates to kind of pay for the whole infrastructure thing. So it’s it’s interesting to hear that’s literally how you started thinking about I should go from solo to group. Matt Fowler 00:03:25 Yeah, it’s certainly yeah. It was not something that I had intentionally planned out. I wish I could say that I did, but it was something that it was, okay, I’m here financially. Matt Fowler 00:03:34 It just sort of made sense. Like I said, it was a little bit earlier and sooner than I had anticipated, but it was like, you know, now is the time. And I focused a little bit in the beginning about possibly renting it out. But at that time, no one was looking for for anything to rent out. And I really still had this passion to write. I want to grow. I want to have a group practice, not just, you know, rent out to other people. That wasn’t the model that I wanted to go with. So it was like, If I’m going to do it, I should do it the way that I want to do it and and get moving and going forward and structuring it in the right way. Andrew Burdette 00:04:02 So what were your next steps in terms of thinking about filling up that space, covering costs and expanding your group and kind of creating that group vision? Where did that group vision next evolve into. Matt Fowler 00:04:16 The the group vision next evolved into? So I would I would say that I initially stumbled a little bit out of the block. Matt Fowler 00:04:24 I had really wanted to get started right away, but didn’t quite know all of the pieces that I needed, and I really needed to reflect back and be able to say to myself, like, okay, what do I do? Well. And what I did well was, you know, like when you become a therapist, right? Like there’s a lot of years of school and I knew that I did well in school. So I was like, what do I have? Like how how can I recreate that for myself to learn what I need to do here? And that’s when I ended up joining the group practice launch community, where I felt like it was something that could guide me through the process, give me the flexibility to figure out what I needed to do, but also keep me accountable with the regular meetings that we had, the regular conversations like the the assignments that would be given in between to kind of put these things together. So I just that’s what I do. Well, I might as well just go back and do that if that’s what I want to do, set it up the right way. Andrew Burdette 00:05:13 Cool. And so how did you, from the point of realizing you wanted to kind of coordinate and set up a group to your first hire? How long was that and what did the initial hiring process look like? Matt Fowler 00:05:26 My first hire. So so like I said, my group practice officially kind of set that up, got that off the ground about probably 2021. And my first hire was late 2021, 2022. And that’s when I first had my my first person come through the door and actually had to it was just sort of ended up the way that it was. I ended up having two people come to the door. They were great candidates and I really had two offices that I needed to fill. So I was like a little bit of luck that came along with it. Andrew Burdette 00:05:59 So it sounds like your first couple hires just happened to be the right place at the right time. Kind of like the office space was. Yeah. Matt Fowler 00:06:07 Just so happened to to work out that way, I think. Andrew Burdette 00:06:11 were you doing any direct marketing toward hiring anything, or were you just kind of putting it out there that, hey, I’m planning to grow into a group practice and allow the community to kind of feed people your way? Matt Fowler 00:06:21 Well, one of the things I really reflected back on during that time is really trying to figure out, you know, what? What business am I in? And initially, when you’re in private, practice for yourself, like you’re in the business of attracting clients and seeing clients and taking care of of your clients. Matt Fowler 00:06:37 And that’s still our primary goal as a as a practice in general. But I also had to think of myself as, okay, now I’m a group practice owner. What what does this man. And that’s the business of attracting clinicians who want to come work with me and thinking about what kind of culture, what kind of, systems, what kind of community do do these people want? And coming to work with me. And so I really had to shift my focus to I’m in the business of also, you know, finding clinicians and taking care of clinicians. So I needed to shift my mindset around that. Andrew Burdette 00:07:14 the mindset shift thing is, is funny because still, it’s I still found myself a couple of years later being like, I’m a group practice, which just sounds absurd on the level too. But it’s, you know, there’s that still that am I really, you know, and yes, shifting out of the I am the business because that’s kind of how most solo practitioners conceive of everything to I’m a business owner that runs a business with other people in it. Andrew Burdette 00:07:38 And what what am I providing for my, in my case, employees? I know a lot of people are still doing contractor model stuff, but you know, what is the service I’m providing the people that are coming to work for me? Matt Fowler 00:07:50 Absolutely. And I was having a conversation with another group practice owner that I had known at the at the time and still know him like to this day. We still talk from from time to time, but he he was kind of talking with me about thinking through why do people want to come work for you? You know, there’s group practices, there’s other group practices in the area that are really well run that do a really great, great job of supporting their clinicians. There’s a lot of new tools today that really enable, therapists to go out there on their own to be able to start their own practices. So I had to really think through, like my I’m competing with other group practices in the area, but I’m also competing with people who want to go out on their own. Matt Fowler 00:08:29 And what’s going to be my message to convince people to come to my practice versus going out on their own or to other group practices and and why is that going to be beneficial to them? I had to really think through that process. Andrew Burdette 00:08:41 So in terms of messaging and messaging specifically to the therapist in your practice, like how how has that messaging evolved over time to just identify yourself with like, sure, you could go work over here, you could go work for this agency. They’ll offer you a giant health insurance package or whatever they’re going to offer that, you know, you already have. Small business owners, like in our field especially, can’t really conceive of doing because of just margins and other things. So how is that where did that I guess that message start in terms of trying to reach therapist to join your practice? And what does that evolved into after a couple of years of doing it? Matt Fowler 00:09:16 What I started to really think about, I’ve reflected back on, you know, sort of what my challenges were prior to going into private practice for myself. Matt Fowler 00:09:26 I also reflected back on just conversations that I’ve had with other newer therapists in the area. What are barriers that they’re running into? And really what it kind of came down to is a lot of therapists want to do the work of therapy. They really enjoy sitting with their clients. They don’t always enjoy the the the paperwork aspects of things. They don’t always enjoy the running the business or the marketing side of things. Like when you’re when you go into business for yourself, that’s that needs to be a good chunk of your time and your focus. Because without without clients coming through the door, without that marketing, without people being able to find you, it’s really hard to run a successful business. And a lot of people want the independence of private practice, but don’t necessarily want to think about all the business aspect of it. And so I really kind of tried to target my messaging around around that, like, come have the freedom that you want, come have the community of working in a practice with a lot of other, really well trained therapists where everything that you need to successfully practice is provided for you without necessarily all of the other business and administrative side of things. Andrew Burdette 00:10:32 You’re reminding me of. Back in 2021, I was in the next level practice community. That’s how I kind of came to practice with the practice in general, and at some point that year, somebody in one of the small groups was like, you have a business vehicle that works, why don’t you invite other people to join you? And I was like, because it just seems like I’m taxing other clinicians if they come work for me with the, you know, splitting compensation. And they were like, but you’re forgetting, kind of like you’re talking about there’s people that don’t want to run a business. And what you’re providing is you’re handling insurance and handling billing and all of these other things that a lot of people, like you said, just want to be therapists. Like at the end of the day, they just want to be a therapist and they want to do it in a at least therapist. I’ve talked to you. Generally speaking, people kind of have a ceiling about the number of people they can see in a week before they start reaching burnout and other things. Andrew Burdette 00:11:20 And if you’ve worked in an agency, usually agencies are like, let’s maximize your face time because that’s how we get paid. So, you know, 35 hours of session time in groups later, you’re like, I quit. Like it’s awful. So, I appreciate you bringing up that, thinking about what you’re offering and trying to speak to that as you’re attracting therapists and stuff to join your practice. roughly how many people in your practice currently? Matt Fowler 00:11:46 So we have seven clinicians, and I also maintain a caseload myself too. So there’s about eight of us that are practicing and seeing therapists. Although as as we’ve kind of grown, my caseload is shrunk a little bit just to accommodate some of the other times. So about seven of us. Andrew Burdette 00:12:01 And I’m guessing along those lines, there’s been some evolutions of infrastructure. I know in my own growth and my own practice, there’s been kind of growth phases to where solo plus one’s really easy because you just share the same system and do the same thing. But when you kind of get to three and above, you’re really rethinking the whole picture. Andrew Burdette 00:12:17 And and also having that mindset ahead of thinking about growth. So the systems are one thing. But for me, maintaining a culture of a place I want to come into work in every day is important for myself and the people in it. So as you’ve grown, if you had to Adjust your structuring of culture and how you kind of get therapists to kind of come together and feel a part of a community. Matt Fowler 00:12:43 So really kind of a this is probably a good time to kind of talk about, like the values that I really built the practice on. And I really focused around community. So building a community of therapists within our building connection, like making sure that we’re, we’re, we’re talking about cases, being able to just have conversations with each other and then also focusing on wellbeing, not only our client’s wellbeing, but our therapists wellbeing. You know, if our therapists are not well taken care of, if they’re not in a good headspace, they’re not going to be able to be the best selves that they can be for their for their clients. Matt Fowler 00:13:11 And I’ve really focused on trying to keep those at the forefront of my mind. I think sometimes as you’re building a practice, it can be so easy to shift away from those values as you’re focused on other things. And I’ve really had to be very conscious and intentional to bring myself back to like, what are the basics? What are we built on, and how do I really just continue to hammer away at those for our practice, because that’s really why people come to work for us, I think. Andrew Burdette 00:13:39 And how does that translate into your messaging? So you’re like, do you have a job posting listed and is it spread around the internet, and how does that get shared? And then what’s communicated in that job posting to reflect those values at the core of your practice? Matt Fowler 00:13:56 I really tried to look around to see what to see what else is out there in terms of messaging and what other people are posting. And a lot of it that I kind of notice as I look to different job posts. It’s it’s very it’s very similar kinds of messaging. Matt Fowler 00:14:11 And so I really had to think about how do I stand out from that? How do I not just look like every other job posting that people are going to go look for? So I really had to just like, just like when you focus on your messaging to think about, you know, who is your ideal client for who you want to see for therapy. I had to really think through, well, who is my ideal, therapist that I want to come work. And how do I. How do I message that to them? How do I how do I tell the story of my practice and how I can really support them in their work? That’s going to convince them to say, yes, let me fill out this application. And, I feel like our messaging is a little bit different from the way that other people do it, because it doesn’t just jump right into the job description, like talk a little bit more about culture in the beginning, and, and what our values are before getting to what the job posting is. Matt Fowler 00:14:59 So I feel like that helps us stand out a little bit in the sea of of all the different, job postings that are out there. Andrew Burdette 00:15:06 I think you’re right that the majority of job postings, you maybe get like three sentences about sort of some very air sounding, you know, here’s our brief description of this company and a little history of the background or whatever. And then it’s just the nuts and bolts of the job. It does nothing to really say about what the experience of working here is like, and more of what I’m hearing is about trying to explain. Here’s the experience you can expect when you come work for us, and the types of people that we really focus on and cater to as a practice. Matt Fowler 00:15:34 Absolutely. Because I think you mentioned earlier that as a as a small business, you know, we do not have the, you know, we don’t have the like the, the, the, like the health insurance, the benefits packages that, that all the other, that other practices may be able to provide. Matt Fowler 00:15:51 And so there’s really a lot of like, you know, why do people want to come work for us when we don’t necessarily have that? And there’s a lot of convincing around, like, you know, why is our culture so different that it’s going to, supersede that for, for some people and some people can’t, you know, they necessarily need that. And, you know, I think that’s great. Like they can go and get that another practices. But for us, right. We have to work with what we’ve got. Andrew Burdette 00:16:14 trying to think so has your as that messaging is dialed in, has your I guess fishing for clients like in the recruitment process change like have you so far, at least the size that I am. All of my all of my people that have come through with somehow found me word of mouth. There hasn’t been any like, active campaigns on LinkedIn or indeed or these other sites. And the topic of where where to find quality applicants always seems to come up. So have you was, I guess, what’s your process? And if have you had to refine it to kind of get quality clients to keep up with your hiring goals and kind of pace of things? Matt Fowler 00:16:56 I like that you talked about word of mouth, because that’s what I feel like also attracts people to to working with us to like, yes, there’s the marketing stuff that I’ve talked about and knowing what business you’re in, but in the same way that you that I network to get clinicians and to build relationships with. Matt Fowler 00:17:13 So, you know, you had mentioned way in the beginning talking about like we really specialize in children and families. I’ve built a lot of relationships over the years with the different school systems and with other different, you know, sort of agencies in the area and those relationships, one, you know, kind of help us get some of the clients that we get to, but it also helps build a trust within our community of like, you know, not only am I a good person to be able to send clients to, but if I bring a therapist into our building too, that, you know, these people can be trusted, as you know, people to take care of our children and families in the area. And it also builds that relationship, too, with therapists in the area that they may want to outreach you. We’ve actually outreach you to work in your practice when you have, you know, such good qualities attached to the name of your practice. that I’ve actually had a few people just email me, not necessarily going through any sort of, you know, like indeed or anything like that. Matt Fowler 00:18:06 Just outreach me directly and saying like, hey, I’m not sure if you even have a job listing up right now, but I wanted to just submit your, my resume to you just in case you do have an opportunity. And we brought in a few people that way. Andrew Burdette 00:18:18 listeners of this show will, like, have heard me talk about a group of group owners that I’m a part of locally, and I kind of, like you and I were talking ahead of the show was, every one of those groups has kind of a different personality and identity. So, you know, there’s one that’s focused very much on like autism and ADHD spectrum. another one on children and families, kind of like, you know, sounds very akin and similar to like, your practice. And that’s kind of what they’re known for. But as a group owner, it’s great because I know the owners, I trust their judgment. I know occasionally they get kind of not maybe the best fit for their practice or a clinician that’s not a good fit, but in general, because I trust the owners. Andrew Burdette 00:18:55 It’s an easy referral thing. So I can as I’m bringing in new people into my practice as well. It’s like, here’s your top three referral list, and there’s at least a half a dozen people in any of these practices that should be able to address the issue if we’re not a good fit. And one of the other things out of that kind of more along the lines of hiring and culture is several therapists have started at one practice, and culturally it hasn’t been a good fit. some of that culture is maybe the population targeting. So it’s, it’s less in alignment than, than the clinician coming in thought it was going to be. But more importantly, like we all have different structures about like I’m kind of the satellite remote. So I’m sticking with a very hybrid mostly telehealth probably platform. so I’m not looking to necessarily have a centralized office space yet, but that’s my culture. I’m one of several people in the area that kind of has that approach. And then I’ve got other friends that got one friend that occupies two floors of a building, you know, with her practice, because she’s quite large and has scaled out. Andrew Burdette 00:19:53 And so structure and culture and that kind of back end thing is a big fit. And sometimes you just kind of trade a therapist. It’s a good therapist to a different team because they’re really a baseball player and you really run a football team, you know. So have you had a similar experience in terms of building community, among other group owners, and then kind of knowing the therapist pool in your area? Matt Fowler 00:20:14 Yeah, I would say you mentioned trust and that’s such a big thing. You know, I really put a lot of value on trust in terms of like who, who we make referrals to. just because of, you know, if I can’t help somebody or if somebody comes to us with, you know, like, hey, this is a condition we’re looking to work on. These are our goals, and we just don’t have anybody that’s necessarily the right fit. I really want to make sure that I’m taking care of them and sending them to the right place so that they can get the, you know, the treatment that they really need and building that community of of other group practice owners and not just group practice owners too, but also like other, you know, individual clinicians in the area, too, because we get a lot of referrals just from individuals in our area. Matt Fowler 00:20:53 But having that trust, I think kind of like you’re talking about is that, you know, if, if, if, if a practice is if they get somebody who comes through their doors and it’s not necessarily a fit for them one reason or another, clinician wise, you know, I’ve had people that could, you know, might be referred to my practice to to look for a job there. I know that I’ve had people apply to work for us, and I just it just really wasn’t a good fit. They were such a quality candidate, but we only bring on licensed clinicians into our practice. And so I’ve had a couple of pre licensed people who I’m just like, if it was a couple of years and you were and you were ready to go, like this would totally be a fantastic fit. But I feel comfortable sending them to a couple of other group practices in the area too. And so like just having those reciprocal relationships with other group practice owners that you that you trust and know do good work and will take care of not only clients but the the clinicians too, is such a a positive way to to find other quality candidates if. Joe Sanok 00:21:54 You’re someone with a vision for your practice, for your side hustle, and for your personal journey, but when it comes to establishing your path and how to get to where you want to be with your practice, things get a little messy. You’re also someone who would prefer to go in person instead of to groups and listening to everyone else’s story. To me, it sounds like you could benefit from one on one consulting with our experienced practice of the practice consultants from 595 a month and up. You can work with a consultant that will give you more direction and practical, tried and tested tips matched to you and your goals. For more information, visit practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. Again, that’s practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. Andrew Burdette 00:22:44 If you want we could dive a little bit deeper in terms of that hiring questionnaire and those kind of things. Because like you said I’ve had people that apply that, you know, just based on questions like what population are you wanting to work with? And are you looking to, you know, strictly outpatient individual therapy versus like groups or other modalities like, you know, those couple of questions really helpful on the hiring end because maybe I’m not equipped to handle that. Andrew Burdette 00:23:08 Maybe it’s not a population we work with. My practice is adults only. We don’t do couples currently. I don’t know that I really want to go down that road either. because I have fellow group practice owners have eight people and that’s their expertise. So why don’t I just send them over there? Because that’s their jam and I’ll keep people and do my thing. So hiring question wise, like, what are some of the things that you’ve learned to kind of include that are good indicators about. Is this worth a follow up. And then what kind of follow up process do you do? Matt Fowler 00:23:37 I don’t necessarily have a questionnaire developed. It’s something that’s something. It’s something that’s certainly in the back of my mind of how do I, you know, kind of how do I think about those questions I put a lot of value on. I’ll reach out to people initially to set up just an initial conversation. And I’m really looking for, you know, what’s, of course I’m taking a look at the clinical skills and are they a good fit clinically? But I’m also looking for, you know, what’s what’s our connection like in terms of conversation. Matt Fowler 00:24:05 You know, how are they personality wise. How are they going to fit within our practice. What are their expertise and how can they benefit the rest of our community? With with their expertise as well? I’m really looking for that cultural fit. I often find that if you can build like a really quality culture and a good quality and get a candidate that really fits well into your into your, you know, the, the, the culture, right? You have a, you have the ability to kind of keep people more long term. You have the ability to kind of build a positive experience when people come in to, to just have conversations or come into our group consultation. So I really focus a lot on that connection between the person. Andrew Burdette 00:24:46 Yeah, it’s I think that’s a very overlooked part of the hiring process as people are doing, because, you know, business owners were focused on KPIs and numbers and all of these stats and things like that of just, you know, where does this math work out? And, you know, sometimes people I think may be hiring a rush because they realize, like, hey, my phone’s ringing off the hook. Andrew Burdette 00:25:05 I’ve got ten people a week. I’m turning away about another clinician to kind of take over this caseload immediately. That would be all this more revenue and these other things. And the higher slow fire, fast thing, I think is a good motto for that too. But or just things to keep in mind. Not that firing is ideal either, and having departing clinicians, but it’s going to happen. The longer you do this, it’s inevitable. I think that someone’s going to leave your practice eventually under some circumstances. And I kind of like you’ve said that cultural thing. Why would they stay here? Matt Fowler 00:25:34 Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Like why why would they stay here? How do they how do they fit in with that culture? And then also to like when, when people leave. Right. Because like you said, like that’s an inevitability of your practice. People come and they go, but when they leave, how do I also have them leave in a way that still has them thinking highly of our, our practice? Because one, a lot of times if somebody leaves and stays in our area like that’s a referral source for us, that somebody that I can ideally trust, but also in return, that’s a, you know, a good way of one getting referrals back to us to, to help maintain our business. Matt Fowler 00:26:04 And they can also be somebody to kind of put out a good word for us if they have other conditions, looking to to join a group practice too. So, so yeah, like what you talk about right there, like the communication, but also when you have when people end up transitioning out, like still maintaining and having that sort of quality relationship with people I think is invaluable. Andrew Burdette 00:26:24 One thing I just want to emphasize here, because it it comes up from time to time and just interacting with other group owners and even solo practice people too, is scarcity. Mindset is not your friend. There are plenty of people that are going to come see us as therapists. And so as you’re thinking about, not only your onboarding process with therapists, but also onboarding and offloading clients to, because clients may realize they’re not a good fit, maybe insurance stuff, changes in finances change, or your practice decides to go off a panel. If you’re an insurance based panel, practice, but just the idea of so my practice and the people I’m most aligned with locally, it’s clients choice clients first. Andrew Burdette 00:27:04 So if the clinician departing is able to continue seeing them, that’s their right. Like I want that because that’s best for client care. And having that conversation I think is really important on the front end about, you know, if someone does decide to leave somewhere down the road and ideally in good terms, like what happens with the clients. And I think sometimes some business owners in trying to structure their contracts or employer employee relationship type definitions or these kind of I can’t remember what Trap clause really stands for, but this idea of like, you know, there’s some kind of penalty to the clinician if you leave under certain circumstances and like can’t take clients and stuff. And I just think that’s it’s bad for everybody. Nobody wins it now. Matt Fowler 00:27:45 It certainly is. Yeah. I you know, I always I always talk with a lot of our clinicians as well just around, you know, I want to help you build the best practice in your ideal practice within within our group. And I want to try to set you up to be, you know, the best clinician that you can be and do what I feel like is and support you in doing what you feel like is best for you. Matt Fowler 00:28:04 And if ultimately there comes a time where you feel like you are ready to leave. You know, I, I want to also support you in that too. And sometimes it just sort of comes to that. People’s lives, you know, are evolving outside of our clinic doors. And I’m happy for people when they finally reach the point of like, hey, I really want to go out on my own. And, you know, I’m happy for them and I help them transition as best as as possible. And you know it. On one hand, it’s a loss for our business, too. But ultimately, I’m really happy for them and being able to feel comfortable taking that next step. So I really try to focus on that too, because like when you have a clinician leave under circumstances that aren’t great like that, that also affects your messaging and also affects how people view you in your in the community too. And that can impact, you know, people who want to come work for you. Matt Fowler 00:28:50 And so I really like focusing on that connection with people that I feel like is is just it’s so valuable to me. Andrew Burdette 00:28:58 It’s also part of just a value of like I value the connection even if there’s like some tension at some point, that’s fine. We’re over the long term. Most relationships are going to have at least a little kerfuffle of something. But, you know, how do you want to handle that? So if you set yourself up to like, I value the best quality relationship for everybody involved versus, you know, finders keepers or, you know, this kind of keep away thing, it just doesn’t seem to work as well. I don’t know. I very much believe in collaborative effort kind of things versus competitive. There’s there’s more than enough people in our field, therapist wise and also clinician wise or client wise, to be able to come back in. you’ve mentioned community quite a bit. When you have people come in, are you having new therapists? Do you have like a game plan and kind of ground game for people to start introducing themselves to the community as a whole? And, like a friend of mine has three pediatric providers that anybody new that comes in, she’s like, part of your onboarding is coming on board is to schedule meetings to meet these people. Andrew Burdette 00:29:59 They already know you are going to contact them. So she kind of has these setup meetings for them to start meeting some of their primary, some of their primary referral sources. Do you have anything like that? Or as people come in, do you really encourage them to kind of go meet and greet other people in the community? Matt Fowler 00:30:17 So I’d say when. So a lot of our, all of our therapists, our 1099. And so I really want, you know, I really focus on their independence of being able to come and go as they please. So it’s a little bit harder to get everybody together to kind of do some of those introductions. So really what I do is I focus on in the beginning, really meeting with that clinician on a regular basis, kind of getting them up to speed. One that’s, you know, for the systems and making sure they’re getting all that stuff down and that’s that’s really important, but also building that relationship with them over time, checking in about how their families are checking in on how things are going with their transition or anything else kind of going on in their lives. Matt Fowler 00:30:49 And then as they start to transition to when anybody else is in the office, making sure to kind of link those, link people together in making introductions so that people can start to have conversations or when I’m. Let’s say that clinician is not necessarily in the office all that much when I’m talking with other therapists and just sort of checking in and, you know, kind of passing by as you’re walking through the hallway, making sure that people know that we have other people coming in through the door. I let people know that we’re going to be like through just, like different sort of newsletters and things through email, like, hey, like, this is we got we got a new person coming in. This is what they really specialize in, really try to just make it known that we’ve got somebody coming into the practice, that everybody can expect to see around the office. And then two, we also do like our regular group consultations. And that’s always a great way for people to sort of get to know, get to see somebody and start learning a little bit about their practice and who they are. Andrew Burdette 00:31:46 Yeah, I it’s probably going to change now that my team’s grown, because it’s kind of like it’s not it’s not working out a bunch. But that’s just part of growth. Right. but we we kind of on a thread. So my practice is now up to it’s myself I think plus one, two, four, maybe five, something like that. 4 or 5. Anyway, I’ve got one on maternity leave, so I’m kind of the math is a little different where it’s like, all right, so so I’ve got four starting October 1st and then when maternity leave it will be five. But trying to coordinate that versus 1 or 2 people and trying to find a time to just kind of meet once a week, much easier with 1 or 2 people versus 4 or 5. And so we’re kind of going to do a Friday. Checkout is usually what we kind of do. We usually meet up at a coffee shop and sometimes we need to discuss things. So if we’re actually doing consulate consultation type stuff there, but it’s really, for me, like a way for people to kind of transition out of work for the week into their weekend, get to know one another, just feel human with other fellow humans and have that community. Andrew Burdette 00:32:43 And then we’ve typically had an outside supervisor come in and provide consultation for anyone that wants to attend. under W2, it’s going to be a little more. I’m kind of realizing if I if for me and my needs to meet with that many people. So I’m not in the same meeting five times with people, I think I’m going to have to maybe mandate some of this of like on Tuesdays we’re going to do this, and on Fridays are going to do this because I need to budget my time and it’s limited to and but again, building that community and ways to kind of build that among your team so that they don’t feel isolated and on an island and, even under contract or stuff, it was like, look, I’ll incentivize you. If you come, I’ll pay you an AB and rate for showing up, but it’s up to you whether or not you want to come kind of thing. Matt Fowler 00:33:24 Yeah, yeah. And everybody we don’t necessarily pay people for, for coming. It’s really something that like, hey, this is what we provide to be able to support you with, you know, with your practice and to be able to meet like the the state requirements too. Matt Fowler 00:33:36 It’s really important that we have everything in place and then people can really utilize what they want to utilize within our practice. But a lot of times with our consultation, people come fairly regularly. which is it’s it’s always great to see everybody coming in like right now where we’re I think there were periods of time during the year where people might kind of be in and out in terms of like, summertime can definitely be a time where people are on vacations and doing different things. So people may miss for, for those reasons, trainings, all that sort of stuff. But in general, we have people filter in and out pretty regularly, which is always a I feel like that kind of highlights that, okay, yeah, we’re doing really well with our community and culture. People are showing up when they don’t really have to. Andrew Burdette 00:34:16 one thing that I’ve got a question about, just because it does impact hiring and it’s different from state to state. So you mentioned pre licensed in New Hampshire. North Carolina does what’s called associate. Andrew Burdette 00:34:26 So we’re all provisionally licensed which means it’s restricted, but we’re fully licensed with the requirement of supervision, which is different than other states operate in terms of I’m still able to get an NPI number as an associate. I can hire associates. They can get put on insurance panels. Some of them, there’s a lot of autonomy that’s there other than the clinical supervision requirement. And functionally though, that they’re they’re viewed basically the same as like an actual fully licensed clinician would be aside from other limitations about that. Like, I know some of these companies that you were mentioning about facilitating going into solo, they’re not going to touch someone under supervision. But how does what is pre licensed mean in New Hampshire, and how does that kind of impact the market for therapists. Matt Fowler 00:35:14 So pre licensed in New Hampshire. And some of this language is actually more recently changed. They’ve just started updating our our licensing board language around a lot of that stuff. it’s been known as pre licensed for quite some time. But we’re starting to get, you know, conditionally getting language around conditional licensure and having different tiers of conditional licensure for different for different like between like mental health counselors and social workers and like just the different things like there they all do it just a little bit differently, but it’s a little similar in terms of how it affects hiring. Matt Fowler 00:35:49 So people who come into our practice, if somebody is in that conditional licensure phase, they have to be a W-2 employee, which totally makes sense, right? Like you want to be able to make sure that you’re giving them exactly what they need. You’re able to kind of, you know, support them with getting everything they need in order to be able to hit all the the hit, all the checkboxes that they need in order to be able to get their license. So that part makes sense. So in terms of how that affects our practices, it does end up limiting our pool of people that we can see. We I get a lot of applicants that are that will apply to our practice and they’ll be like, well, conditionally licensed. Would you consider taking us on? And it’s something that I’ve thought about in the back of my mind of doing at some point. But I always tell those people, if, you know, I don’t fully understand well enough to be able to support them in that process like I do and I don’t. Matt Fowler 00:36:39 But if I don’t understand it well enough, I can’t properly take care of you, and I can’t if I can’t properly support you and take care of you as a clinician. I don’t want to put you in a position of, of, not being able to reach your goals because again, right. That’s messaging to out to the rest of the community of, of if you don’t do that the right way, that’s people may not want to come work for you. Andrew Burdette 00:36:59 There’s also what I, what I also appreciate about that is just this realization of like, I don’t know enough to really adequately support you at this phase in your career, and I want the best for your career, and there’s other people that know it. I’m surprised actually. This year I got less inquiries for practicum and internship students. a lot of years, it’s like, you know, fall rolls around or the summer spring rolls around and, you know, a dozen people like, hey, do you take interns? And I’m like, I would like to, but the honest truth is, I don’t have six, eight hours a week. Andrew Burdette 00:37:26 I can kind of really dedicate you. And I also because because I don’t have a multiroom office space, that also makes it hard because I would need to be on site while you’re seeing people, wherever that is, because that’s how North Carolina structures thing. So I appreciate the I want to best support you in trying to explain that as people kind of come through. I will say, like if you if you do ever consider that, it is kind of a nice long I know there’s people that do recruitment through internships that then turn into like hiring the provisionally licensed people to then have them stay on full time. And a lot of the people that have thought about that and gone down that road, 1 or 2 as they should be, and then two for them. It’s this kind of like several months long hiring process and so kind of getting a sense of culture and is it a good fit? And if not, you have the ability to kind of recommend another site after six months, but you are kind of stuck with 4 to 6 months of somebody that may or may not be a good fit and takes a lot of work. Andrew Burdette 00:38:28 Yeah. Yeah. Matt Fowler 00:38:29 Absolutely, absolutely. And it’s something that I have a little bit of knowledge about. It’s something that I will probably explore at some point. But we’ve also had just a lot of, like I said, like like we focus on licensed therapist. We’ve also had a lot of licensed therapists come through the door, so it really hasn’t necessarily been a need yet for me to really fully delve into that. And so that’s why I, you know, kind of like we were talking about before, I just I tell people that I, I can’t fully support you in the way that you would need to be supported. So I just I don’t want to put you in an uncomfortable situation. Andrew Burdette 00:38:59 Have there been any difficulties? Have you reached the point with talking with licensed therapist to where the the question around, why don’t I just panel with one of these, you know, nationally known brands of like, you know, like headway and AMA and one of these companies, like, why shouldn’t I just go do that? And, and having to have that conversation about that extra little push about the attraction of a group practice and where those trade offs come into play. Matt Fowler 00:39:26 I haven’t necessarily had that conversation yet, but that’s certainly something that I think about in the back of my mind in terms of in terms of my messaging. You know, when people go out and they contract with something like that. Like, again, I think it’s a great resource for a lot of people. So I’m really happy that there’s a lot of those resources for for people who want to just kind of go out on their own and do their thing. But I think, you know, I think a lot of therapists want to be able to not have to worry about rent, not have to worry about utilities. And if you go with a company like that, like, that’s great. They’ll set you up with everything that you need, but you still have to go out and find a space. And so again, like that comes back to managing business aspects, managing, cash flow, which some, some people want to do that. And I think that’s great. That gives them an opportunity to do that. Matt Fowler 00:40:09 But for people who don’t, I think that still puts them in a situation where, you know, they have to be thinking about those things. And I think for a lot of our clinicians, I think they’re all fully capable of doing it. I think the world of them. but I just don’t think they want to do that. And I think that’s exactly our our space to be able to take care of them in that way. Right. They go on vacation. They don’t have to worry about any of that stuff. I mean, their their income might fluctuate as, as 1099, but they don’t have to worry about how am I going to pay rent? How am I going to pay utilities while I’m gone. Andrew Burdette 00:40:37 Yeah, well, my business still exists when I come back. Yeah. For sure. Matt Fowler 00:40:41 Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:40:41 Yeah. is there anything that has we haven’t touched on? You want to make sure? We definitely like cover talking about hiring and bringing people in. And it sounds like we sort of briefly touched on the idea of having, like, a group identity. Andrew Burdette 00:40:56 And again, your focus is on children and families and having a culture around that as well in terms of a therapy practice. But, anything else that we haven’t really touched on in terms of conceptualizing, like, here’s my group practice, identity and hiring and how that all translates into culture and connection that we haven’t already touched on. Matt Fowler 00:41:15 I think is, I guess, in some ways, to kind of sum it all up into like one main point. I think it’s so important to hire for the right fit and not just a fit. There’s a lot of people who could come in through your door looking to to work within your group practice, who will be a fit to be able to check off a lot of the boxes. See, clients do that sort of thing. But there’s something that’s so great about finding the right fit. And I would always rather like like you mentioned before, hire slow. Like really take the time to find the right fit and make sure that this is the right piece to the puzzle for our practice. Matt Fowler 00:41:53 Then just finding a fit, because culturally, that goes a long way in your relationships, in the community, that that goes a long way. So really making sure people take their time with the hiring, because of, you know, if you hire somebody that’s the wrong fit, it takes a lot of time and energy and effort to bring somebody on, and you have to start all over again. So hiring for the right fit is is crucial. Andrew Burdette 00:42:17 Yeah. And I like the really in essence saying you’re entering into a long term relationship and how is that going to go and thinking about it from that relational standpoint versus the checkbox standpoint exclusively? Matt Fowler 00:42:29 Absolutely. Because that’s the idea, right? I want people to stay for as long as they can. There’s certainly the reality that they’ll, you know, transition away at some point. but the goal is to, you know, have them come in and feel, you know, just as positive about our environment as I do. Andrew Burdette 00:42:44 Cool. so it sounds like the big takeaway you’ve learned in this whole process is really just one message to therapists about this is what this is the benefit of joining a group versus solo or other things. Andrew Burdette 00:42:56 And this is what you get here that you may not be able to find elsewhere. And then to really taking the time to kind of invest in that fit and fitment and over maybe some other details just because it’s it’s really important culturally to keep everything working comfortably. Matt Fowler 00:43:12 Absolutely. Yeah. The community is going to develop a an opinion about your practice and the way that you hire, the way that you message all affects that opinion. and an opinion can be something that can do wonders for you and certainly can, you know, hinder your growth too. So I’m really cognizant of that. Andrew Burdette 00:43:33 If you had to do, like, a one sentence summary of of the your takeaway from this, what would it be? Matt Fowler 00:43:40 And really, just knowing what business you’re in, you know, after when you’re if you’re if you’re in a group practice. Right. I said that’s the beginning. And I think it’s great to to close with it to know what business you’re in. Know that you know, you’re transitioning away to a degree from taking care of just the clients and really focusing on taking care of your clinician. Matt Fowler 00:43:58 So really knowing that and that’s that’s such a mindset shift that I feel like as a group practice owner, if you can get yourself into that mindset and really know what business you’re in, in terms of like taking care of your therapists, that that’s going to be incredibly helpful in running that side of your business. Andrew Burdette 00:44:14 Wonderful. if people want to work with you, how can they find you? Matt Fowler 00:44:19 So we have a website. Our website is Walport counseling.com. And there you can reach out to us. My contact information is in. There you can reach. I’ll give my email to. My email is Fowler Fowler at Old Port Counseling. Com and if anybody wants to reach out for any other thoughts that I talked about today or for any other reason, I’m absolutely happy to talk with them. Andrew Burdette 00:44:43 Cool. Sounds good. And we will link all of that in the show notes. So thanks for coming on. Pleasure to have you and, talk to you soon. Matt Fowler 00:44:50 Thanks for having me. Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:44:57 If you love this podcast, please be sure to rate and review. Andrew Burdette 00:45:09 This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guest are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or any other professional information. If you want professional, you should find one.