Andrew Burdette 00:00:00 The growing Group practice podcast is part of the practice of the Practice Network, a network of podcasts to help you grow, manage and promote your business and yourself. To hear the other podcasts like The Practice of the Practice Podcast, go to practice at the practice.com backslash network. You’re listening to the grow a Group Practice podcast, a podcast focused on helping people start, grow, and scale a group practice. Each week you’ll hear topics that are relevant to group practice owners. I’m Andrew Burdette, a practice owner, and I love to hear from people, their stories, and real life experiences. Let’s get started. Hello and thanks again for tuning into the gorilla Group Practice podcast. Today I’m here with Anna Saviano, who owns Heartland Therapy Connection, located in Kansas City, Missouri. She formed her group five years ago and has grown to six clinicians and two admin and is currently continuing to grow. So welcome to the show. I like to ask people to kind of add a little more detail about themselves and kind of what led them to hear and hear now in their careers and stuff. Andrew Burdette 00:01:10 So I’ll turn it over to you to. Anna Saviano 00:01:12 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’ve been a therapist in Kansas City for 15 years and about. Yeah, five years ago is when. About six years ago is when I started thinking about needing to kind of make a change in my career and just some life changes and wanting to have things be a little bit different. and so I hired my first person who was working on her license, with me as her supervisor, and then we ended up needing different office space for that. And then with different office space meant more offices, which meant more people. and so that’s kind of how it got started. I would like to say that I had this, like, very well laid out business plan, but that would not be true. and so it happened organically with a lot of support from other practice owners, business consultants. and so that’s that’s kind of how the practice started. we specialize in trauma. I’ve been a trauma therapist for 15 years. Anna Saviano 00:02:15 eMDR and DBT are kind of my my sweet spots. I have I’m an Enneagram one. I have two kids and two cats, and I live in the neighborhood I grew up in. So being part of the community is a really big piece of our practice. Also, our group is in really close to my house and where I’ve always been. So that’s part of kind of how we operate as well. Andrew Burdette 00:02:41 So it sounds like you deciding to kind of transition from solo to group came out of just overwhelming demand for your services. Anna Saviano 00:02:49 Yeah, I mean, I was plenty busy in wanting to and part of a really cool co-op group and then kind of wanting a little bit or what has turned into a lot of a challenge, of trying something different, just a different way of doing business. and I was, yeah, really busy. And again, working in the population that I did can be pretty intense. So it was nice to kind of have a different way to focus my attention to not just doing like super intense clinical work, but learning business things, practicing those skills and, and just learning, which it’s been lots of. Andrew Burdette 00:03:24 Yes. I feel like I always end up seemingly with more questions than I have answers to every day. That goes by the 100%. Anna Saviano 00:03:34 Yeah. Yep. Andrew Burdette 00:03:36 and I think also to in your intro, what I heard was you your first hire was somebody that you were doing clinical supervision with. So somebody already had an existing relationship with and not exactly. Anna Saviano 00:03:46 She sought me out for supervision. And we so it started like that and she kind of we just office shared in the space that I was already in. And then actually the person I was doing consulting with at the time, and I was talking to her about this person onboarding, and she was like, it sounds like you’re starting a group practice. I was like, oh, is that what I’m doing? Is that what I want to do? That sounds sort of interesting and intriguing. And so we I talked to our landlord and he had some space across the street. So it was going to be a pretty smooth in that way kind of transition. Anna Saviano 00:04:21 and the group that I left is a bunch. I mean, it was like a bunch of independent practitioners, and they were they’re my friends and super supportive. And so it didn’t feel terrible leaving. and then, yeah, we hired a couple more people. And so for a minute it was myself and three clinicians and one admin person, and we’ve basically like doubled, although for a minute we also were a little bit bigger when we had some interns. and really like, since we’re here to talk about hiring and all of that kind of thing, like the pacing of that was is hard to predict how that’s going to go, right? Like you have space that you need to fill, but you need to have call volume. And so that dance of trying to do it all in the right enough timing has been probably one of the hiring things that has been challenging and growth opportunity, learning all of that. Andrew Burdette 00:05:21 I like that you’re bringing up the pacing thing, because I’m kind of like, you and I were talking ahead of the recording. Andrew Burdette 00:05:26 so my great practice, my first hire was when you went to school with was really easy. I kind of said at the start, I’m like, you’re going to be my unicorn because I would trust you with any of my clients. It’s not a big deal. And so with the priority being like our relationship and everything versus the business, because business can come and go, I’d rather keep my friendships and things like that. And it’s been really great. But, you know, doing a plus one things really easy. You don’t your infrastructure relatively can be the same. Splitting an office like a single rooms. Really easy to do. But when you add that next person, it’s a little different depending on how you’re structured. kind of coming out of the pandemic and being mostly remote, adding a second additional clinician wasn’t as big of a deal, and we kind of started maxing out the room. I mean, now the single room here in my one other sublet, but then everything changes. And then you kind of realize, like, my next expansion requires I need more office space, I need a higher volume of calls coming in. Andrew Burdette 00:06:21 I need somebody to coordinate all of that. Do I want to have a model to where everything’s very independent oriented, including do all the, you know, referrals go directly to the clinician that somebody wanting to reach or do I then try and centralize things and you know and so you were talking about having three three clinicians and an admin. And that was we kind of experimented with that last year. And the quality of the admin really determined whether or not the admin stuck around. Anna Saviano 00:06:48 Oh man, yes I will. I mean, the story that I tell about how I found the admin person, who is the person who holds all of us together. the consultant I was working with was like, have you hired the admin? I was like, oh, how do you hire this person? We’re you know, I’ve never really looked for a person to hire. And I was way over complicating it because I, you know, that’s easy to do for me. and I ended up just posting on my own Facebook page, not like an ad or anything fancy, just, hey, here’s what we’re doing. Anna Saviano 00:07:22 Here’s what we’re looking for. It’s part time right now. It’ll probably be more later. I mean, the position started, I think, at 5 to 10 hours a week, and it was very much like it has to be for the right person, right? Somebody who wants to work a little bit, maybe more later. Her kids were pretty young at the time she started and now they’re both school age, so she’s got more availability and her hours have, I mean doubled, tripled. I think she’s 30 now, so you know, but that being the right fit is hugely important. so yeah, you spoke of unicorns and. Yes, that’s that’s basically what you have to find with the, the admin client care coordinator person. Andrew Burdette 00:08:05 Yeah. I’m on, I’m on. My fourth happened this year. I went through I went through the agency and like deliberately because the idea was I don’t have to do the hippo training. There’s a lot of things that are kind of built in. If you’re pulling from someone that’s geared toward providing those services for medical practices, therapists in particular. Andrew Burdette 00:08:22 But, first one wasn’t great. My second one was amazing, but she’s also she’s, doing nursing at Johns Hopkins. So that kind of speaks to what she brought to the position, ahead of time and then, you know, okay. But it just wasn’t because they weren’t the unicorn. It wasn’t really worth the the effort to try to coordinate things with the admin. and my new one, actually came came by way of like consulting community and stuff like that too. And so yeah, I know the owner that she works with currently and so we’re kind of sharing. So she’s over there like three quarter time with me and kind of the rest of it. And she’s been fantastic. So. Right. Yeah. It came clear this year with trying to needing to add therapist to kind of fill out that office space, kind of like you were talking about. I described to people that growth phases in group are similar to like, you start maybe a one bedroom apartment and then get a roommate or maybe a two bedroom. Andrew Burdette 00:09:18 And so your expenses and everything’s really simple and then you, your next thing is you move into like a four bedroom house. And so there’s a need to fill that space up and have a plan for how to use it pretty quickly, because otherwise you’re going to pay a mortgage on something that’s really expensive. And it’s it’s above your means. So, but you need those key pieces like admin and systems and all of that needs working. you talked about a quote from another podcast talking about pacing and some relevant things in there about how things change at different phases of development. I think it was. And so, yeah. Anna Saviano 00:09:53 absolutely. I mean, I think the priorities changed. Right. And you were saying about having a house with a mortgage and too much space and under utilizing and kind of being out of your pay grade for a minute. And so then you have to hire and what I know has happened with myself and other practices is that it starts like at a certain size, and that feels good for the people that are there. Anna Saviano 00:10:18 But to to change it all in, just to sustain, because we can’t keep doing the same thing forever. that doesn’t work for everybody. And so like having some turnover, having some people go and having new people come and people with different kind of expectations or ideas or needs and it can feel I mean, it feels really terrible. I think for most of us, when people leave our practice, even if it’s for the best, most sensible and we totally support it kind of reasons. It sucks. It’s hard. Change is hard. And onboarding people and hiring is is challenging. And, I think there’s so much of that that our business shows us about ourselves, for better or worse. And so there’s having to grapple with doing right by your values and right by your business and right by the people. can just be a lot. And I think, like I said, I know some other practice owners who’ve experienced it to where that shift of, and this is the quote that you were asking about at the beginning, rambly answer. Anna Saviano 00:11:21 you know, that the team that started the team that got you here is not necessarily the team that’s going to take you to the next level or the next place just because people have different wants and needs and and also like they need to do something different, you know, and so I feel like having the support with other group practice owners. I mean, I’m in a couple different groups and have different connections with practice owners, and I don’t know how a person would maintain any semblance of sanity or well-being without having a group of other practice owners that experience similar things that you can, you know, bounce technical ideas off of and get like actual information, but also just the people who get it right that you can’t talk to just any therapist about how it is, because it’s not just about being a therapist. and so I think that that piece is immeasurable when we’re talking about managing people and growing a practice and and doing hiring and all of that. so that’s a huge piece. Andrew Burdette 00:12:29 There’s a local group of group owners. Andrew Burdette 00:12:31 There’s ten of us, and we’ve been for over a year and a half now. It’s been phenomenal. But it’s been hugely necessary for all of us to just navigate. You know, there’s sometimes it’s technical like, do I need an employee handbook or how do you structure your pay? And some of it, I mean, we’re generally we’re genuinely collaborative in the sense like we throw a party for everybody to get together. And you were trying to elevate the floor rather than squish the ceiling and be competitive. And, this year it’s been really helpful, as I did the transition to W-2 from contractor and remembering it took everybody else I know six months to make this work. Yeah. So I’m actually right on time. It’s cool. but without really knowing that. And you froze again. So. Okay, it looks like we’re our videos still working. Yay. yeah. For listeners, we’ve had we’ve had some technical issues going on, so hopefully it lasts the rest of the recording. but yeah, that, that support group of how do you make this work? And even last year and looking for a therapist who I was specifically looking for a therapist that had that perspective as a leader and that kind of supervisory role, whether it was as a clinical supervisor or as in this case like an academic, lens of of mentoring students and things like that, too. Andrew Burdette 00:13:43 And because you’re right, the needs are different. Somebody that’s only ever done solo doesn’t understand what it’s like to hire somebody in this dress that goes with it. Right? Yeah. Anna Saviano 00:13:53 Yeah. You know, I mentioned that I live and work in the same neighborhood, and really we’re pretty closely tied to the local university and really having, those relationships in the community. When we talked earlier about hiring and kind of posting about hiring things, I, we post on social media we haven’t ever done like, indeed or any of the paid kind of hiring platforms. But what I’ve done every time is send an email to our contact list of professional, you know, network people to just say we’re hiring because most of those people I have some amount of personal connection to. And also you can incentivize your current team to recruit friends, colleagues, etc.. and I think that both of those you take out that first step of like, who even is this person that I’m hiring because they were referred by a person that you already knew who vouched for them, at least at some level. Anna Saviano 00:14:54 so I think that that has made hiring a little bit more manageable. And I think that, you know, when I talk to other owners too, like, those are the folks that kind of already get what you’re doing, too, because there’s some amount of brand recognition. They kind of know your practice and who you are, which makes it a little bit smoother, I think, or potentially can. Andrew Burdette 00:15:16 So let’s talk a little about branding. One of the things that comes up when coaching anybody going into private practice is just who’s your ideal client. Right. And I think when you’re doing groups, having a group identity is really important. Like some of my colleagues like, it’s either centered around eating disorders or ketamine assisted stuff, or autism and ADHD specifically. every one of my group owner friends, the group itself has some degree of identity. That’s kind of their area of expertise. Right? And that influences hiring just in terms of the technical skills you’re looking for. But it also, I think, influences culture. Andrew Burdette 00:15:52 Absolutely. Yeah. In the workplace. Anna Saviano 00:15:55 yeah. I mean I think that so our specialty is trauma. We are all either currently or scheduled for eMDR training. and so being able to use that just from a marketing angle that this is what we all can offer, obviously we see lots of people, but you start with that niche and that that audience of like, but we can really help you. I’ve always done a lot of work with borderline personality disorder and vets and first responders, so that is often who we get referrals from. Or that kind of, network is connected to us. And so really having a team who comes in knowing to an extent like we’ve got some heavy stuff, you know, we work with people having some pretty serious issues, some pretty serious symptoms. being well connected to the local psych hospitals is important to. So we have relationships with a few people around town who we can refer to and that kind of thing. and then hiring means you have to be kind of like here for that, you know, that it isn’t necessarily going to be strictly the worried. Anna Saviano 00:17:04 Well, or all kids or no kids or whatever. So really making sure that people have an interest in that, first of all, but also the requisite training and willingness and and yeah, stamina. Andrew Burdette 00:17:19 Probably the longer I’ve been a clinician, the more I realize, like, everyone works with trauma to a degree. And I think that’s a really huge lens. And some places really focus specifically on the trauma piece, and others should be aware of it. So all of my team members for. thinking about who I’m going to hire. So I’m willing to hire new clinicians. I’m not willing to hire people that have only done work from school. So, you know, if you’ve done my one of my more recent hires has spent a lot of years as a trauma coach working with, like, you know, people diagnosed with cancer and their families and doing the mental health work, just not under the therapist badge. Yeah. but just in terms of thinking culturally and just competency wise, like, not something I want to do. Andrew Burdette 00:17:59 And you’ve probably found to it’s easier to find associate or provisionally licensed people, depending on how the nomenclature works in your state versus full time or fully licensed individuals to so outside of your network or even within your network. Are there any any kind of gems you’ve learned in terms of attracting the right people and kind of filtering out who is a good applicant to then follow up with? Anna Saviano 00:18:23 Yeah, I mean, I think we started with no brand recognition and just sort of my own reputation as a clinician in the area. and we’ve, we’ve hired I’ve hired mostly probably two thirds of provisionally licensed people, maybe half straight from school and then people who’ve worked elsewhere. I’ve had a lot of success with with both. It hasn’t really fallen down those lines as far as, you know, better or worse. But I do think that early on in group practice establishment, it can be hard to attract seasoned people just because they might be better off on their own or they might not want to, you know, so finding somebody who really values not just the financial aspect of private practice, but being part of a team, having that kind of support, and knowing really well what they need out of their employment and their own clinical work. Anna Saviano 00:19:23 I think that that has been a learning curve, and a thing to an area to focus on when we’re going through the hiring process of being really clear on what we offer, money wise, benefits wise, non tangible benefits wise, you know, and really having a strong team culture so that, that so that people can rely on one another because of the heavy work that we do, knowing that people aren’t trying to see 35 clients a week because that’s too much, you know, and that there’s support around a more moderate caseload and getting consultation. And, you know, we do biweekly team meetings so that we stay connected in that way. And people can consult on clients even when we aren’t, like in a dire situation. And that that’s the thing that group practice offers that, you know, solo doesn’t. And nonprofit can, of course, but that’s also just a different ballgame. Andrew Burdette 00:20:21 I like that you bring up the perspective of too much work and kind of checking people, because there are those clinicians that are like, I’m just going to see dollar signs and then see tons of tons of, you know, clients and stuff like that. Andrew Burdette 00:20:35 my latest applicant that I’m looking forward to hiring and bringing on later this fall had asked about, you know, if I want to see 30. Is that okay? I’m like, at that point we’re going to have a conversation about our you okay. Right, right. And and is this really meeting all your needs because there are limits. You know, if you take insurance you’re kind of set with the rates are going to send and pay you and those kind of things. So there’s there’s some. 25, 20 to 25 seems like about the right sweet spot for like what’s considered full time for like caseload in a typical week. And there are a handful of practices I’m aware of that ask for more than that. And I would just discourage it would burn me out. Like if that was all I was doing without having to run a business, right? Anna Saviano 00:21:22 Yeah. I mean, I just had a conversation with somebody who just became licensed. So she’s newish, but not, you know, she’s been here for a couple of years. Anna Saviano 00:21:31 And what is sort of the industry standard on caseload and the difference between if you’re fully working or if you have a part time job or you have, you know, hobbies or kids or, you know, how do you keep your whole life in balance? and one thing that I try to do, you know, pretty enthusiastically, is that sort of career. I just heard it called career pathing, which I find grammatically challenging, but, does seem accurate in terms of like helping people figure out what their career goals are to to have an eye on kind of the longer term and not just maxing out. How many clients can you possibly see, but what else do you want your clinical life to look like? and and helping protect people from burnout by having balance and all of that. 25. You know, I mean, I think once you’re in it and have you have some 27, 28 kind of weeks. I think that that’s possible, but I don’t think it’s sustainable for weeks on weeks and weeks. Anna Saviano 00:22:39 so yeah, we we try and hit around 22 to 25 for a full time, fully working person. Andrew Burdette 00:22:47 I think everybody ends up with those weeks, especially if you’re trying to plan for vacation and make sure everybody’s seen. So there’s not a huge gap. And. Yeah. or if you have biweekly people and people go on vacation, so you end up with people that are normally alternating, like stacked in the same week. It gets really intense. But again, you’re right, it’s it’s transitional. It’s temporary. It’s not an expectation as a baseline. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Anna Saviano 00:23:10 And I think, you know, speaking of expectations and just the hiring process in general being as explicit. And I feel like every iteration of hiring I’ve gone through, it’s been more and more there’s been more and more clarity around. Here’s what this looks like, here’s what the job looks like, here’s what the expectations are, and really making sure that people know what they’re signing up for. Know what we can promise and what we can’t promise. Anna Saviano 00:23:35 You know, like call volume is roughly this. But then things happen and call volume shifts or, you know, we’re trying to fill three caseloads or we’re trying to fill one. So it varies. and I think that that conversation needs to be kind of ongoing. And, the hiring process not being like, okay, you’re hired. Good luck. Goodbye and good luck. You know, that we keep wanting to keep tabs on people checking in, paying more attention. That’s one thing I’ve learned over the course of the last few years, you know, is really paying attention to people more carefully for longer after hiring, you know, to really check in and see how things are going. So that’s nothing comes as a surprise. I think that’s important. Andrew Burdette 00:24:25 So what are the some of the changes? your hiring process is undergoing in terms of. Well, let’s just start with, application to job offer. How has that changed? in your practice and your hiring practice? Anna Saviano 00:24:43 well, when we first started, it was just me being like, yeah, I like you. Anna Saviano 00:24:46 Great. Let’s do it. which actually worked out, you know, pretty well. Like, all three of those people are still, you know, employed at the moment, so that’s cool. as we grew and we had more of a leadership team, those people were part of the hiring process. So it might go through our admin first to ask some like screening type questions and then to leadership. currently what I’ve been doing and again like willing to pivot and change and adapt and kind of do what makes the most sense for now, while also trying to have a process. So I’ve done a first interview with a couple people, partly because they reached out to me directly, and at least in one case, I didn’t really know that they were looking for a job. I thought they just wanted to, like, talk. but then having a contingent of our practice meet with people. So I opened it up to whoever was interested to ask some questions, wanting to really focus on kind of like team cohesion. Anna Saviano 00:25:49 And not just that. I’m making decisions from up here and I hope all you guys are cool with it. But hey, we are hiring. Everybody knows that. Do you want to have an opportunity to meet with this person, to ask them questions and to like get a feel for that kind of like vibe, check culture fit in, see how and because people I mean, I don’t ask all good or the only good questions, you know. So it’s been cool to see what other clinicians on our team want to know about these potential teammates. Andrew Burdette 00:26:22 I think that’s really important. I know one of the people I hired this year was starting. They ended up starting right when the whole change health debacle was going on. Oh, yeah. Which was just an unprecedented train wreck for everybody that does anything with insurance remotely regardless. And it was like that with like three other things this year. And I finally just said I was like, please feel free to talk to the other people that work here, because this doesn’t represent the stability that is generally a part of here. Andrew Burdette 00:26:52 And this is just there’s these like five things that are beyond my control all happening at once. And it’s a mess. And it’s not a good reflection of really what to expect going on. And so that that worked out really well. And I’m actually probably going to like put your talking about about having your existing team kind of be part of the like initial process, probably be part of that too. But I mean, so far the people that have come in have been, you know, a half a degree to one degree away from separation. So it’s not been really random people that have no idea of who I am or who other people in my practice are. It’s been that kind of community based networking kind of thing. It’s worked out. Anna Saviano 00:27:31 Yeah I mean I do, I think I said that earlier just about, I do think that that is a solid way to hire, especially probably at this phase of things. You know, if we were really big and had a very laid out hiring plan, like some of the people who employ like 30 or 40 people, there’s a lot of levels of leadership that has got their hands in that. Anna Saviano 00:27:53 That’s just not where we are. So I think, you know, knowing at least 1 or 2 degrees, half a degree of separation does help. Andrew Burdette 00:28:02 So you find a good candidate, you offer them a job, they come on, what does. you mentioned the 90 day thing, and that’s been a pretty good expectation. I’ve been under promising at 3 to 6 months and trying to deliver in that 90 day window for things. And that seems to work out pretty well, because sometimes people work a little different than others, and if they’re part time, it may take them a little longer. But, you know, how how do you bring somebody in and kind of teach them the ropes to work in your practice? Anna Saviano 00:28:33 That is also changed over the course of the last couple of years. you know, I think the way that it did actually work at the beginning was not how it worked. The second sort of iteration of hiring the people. I don’t know why exactly. Case loads grew slower the second time. Anna Saviano 00:28:51 So really now where we are, which feels sort of like a third wave of of hiring and figuring things out, is really looking at checking in a lot more, doing a lot more, direct marketing for the clinicians based on their skill set. So really setting up meetings with people that I know, people in doctor’s offices, other clinicians that have referrals that they would send to us, you know, to put our new clinicians face to face with people in our community. So it’s not just like, hey, I’ve got a new therapist, send clients over here. It’s like, let’s get lunch. This person does this kind of work, meet them, and really make ourselves of resource and valuable to our colleagues around the city and people who are doing, you know, adjacent work, but not what we do. and then I’m doing a lot more one on ones and checking in with people to see how exactly is your caseload going, what’s happening with these people? How’s retention? You know, not just assuming, because this is where I kind of had been assuming that everything was fine and that everything was clicking along and then finding out three months later or whatever, that it’s not exactly fine. Anna Saviano 00:30:08 and so asking more of that direct question and really trying to be in that more at the beginning. both from a culture piece. You know, I want people to feel seen and cared for and not just like, well, you’re in and good luck, but really that I’m invested in you being successful and, you know, getting what you want out of your work. And that’s part of that career path thing, too. I really want to support people in trying new things, doing things that they maybe couldn’t do as a solo practitioner because they don’t have the overhead option, you know, group space or other kinds of things like that. And I think that that is something that groups can offer, you know, power. And what do they call it, like scales of economy or something like that. Economy of scales. Andrew Burdette 00:30:58 Clearly something like that. Yeah, it’s it’s the Costco model, the Sam’s Club idea of, you know, in bulk. It’s more cheap, right? Anna Saviano 00:31:05 And that we can offer things that you can’t do as a solo person Unnecessarily. Anna Saviano 00:31:10 And so that is part of it that I want people to, to kind of have that benefit of being here. and that they feel supported and can ask questions. And we do team building social things. We do team learning things together so that everybody really feels like we can be connected and kind of on the same page and all of that. Joe Sanok 00:31:39 You’re someone with a vision for your practice, for your side hustle, and for your personal journey. But when it comes to establishing your path and how to get to where you want to be with your practice, things get a little messy. You’re also someone who would prefer to go in person instead of groups and listening to everyone else’s story. To me, it sounds like you could benefit from one on one consulting with our experienced practice of the practice consultants from 595 a month and up. You can work with a consultant that will give you more direction and practical, tried and tested tips matched to you and your goals. For more information, visit practice of the practice. Joe Sanok 00:32:17 Com forward slash apply. Again that’s practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. Andrew Burdette 00:32:31 It’s definitely been interesting this year because I’ve I’ve basically doubled my practice in size with adding three people and an admin. And that’s a lot because I had two clinicians and been me and we did pretty well just independently. And so it’s it’s been a busy year trying to keep up with that. And some of it’s just getting new systems in place. And you were talking about being on your third version of onboarding. And since hiring my first hire we have switched to EHRs. We have moved into a different HIPAA like secure email system. Like all my systems have changed since I started in solo, and even this year there’s been this I need to change this other thing to kind of centralize intakes and other things and take the boat, you know, so that things you can do in a group that you can’t necessarily do in solo unless you really want to spend the money, is have someone else handle all your inquiries for you. Andrew Burdette 00:33:20 Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anna Saviano 00:33:22 And really figuring out what. And this answer is a moving target. Right. But like what is worth that financial investment to get your time back to focus on the business, not in the business, that whole that whole thing. You know, that at the beginning, I saw as many clients as anybody else or slightly less and could barely do anything in the business. You know, I’ve got two kids and a life and I mean sort of a life. And so trying to to balance all of that and then really learning or trying to tackle all the like, well, if I turn this style a little bit and turn that dial a little bit on time and money and, and that there’s not a perfect setting either. Andrew Burdette 00:34:06 It seems like again, plus one plus two is one size and you can kind of enjoy the same infrastructure and it’s really efficient. And then it seems like the next comfortable point, somewhere between 5 or 6 clinicians as a full team to where you are not as the owner, working full time in your practice to make sure all the bills get paid, and then also working full time on your practice to get to the point you can step away from working in it so much. Andrew Burdette 00:34:33 Yeah. Is that I think that that’s true for you. Anna Saviano 00:34:35 Yeah. And that was really also kind of what I was taught by the business consulting and the Masters. I got through podcast listening, you know, that having it does just change the dynamic. You know, that if you’re at that 2 or 3 clinician, the owners still having probably to keep all of the things afloat to see as many clients, maybe slightly fewer, but that it doesn’t really change to be able to do more things outside of clinical work as the business owner, until you’re at that 5 or 6. There also has to be somewhere in there, five, six, seven where one person leaving is a smaller piece of the pie, and so it’s less financially damaging or stressful because everything is just a little more cushioned. and I think that that’s one of the safety nets of having a medium sized practice, which is, I guess, technically where we are now. or maybe we were earlier in the year. I’m not sure where those numbers exactly land, but you know that that difference does change the stress level and you know the risk and all of that. Anna Saviano 00:35:55 So I think having more than 2 or 3 is probably where it has to be to kind of be long term sustainable for the business owner, because otherwise you’re just doing as much clinical work plus a lot of other work. And that’s not the right math, right? Andrew Burdette 00:36:10 It’s it’s a expensive hobby to have. Anna Saviano 00:36:13 Yeah, exactly. Like the super stressful business that I own for fun. Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:36:19 Yes. from my number standpoint, I think somewhere between 4 and 5 full time people is going to be comfortable. And then I can really start reeling back. But the goal is to have 6 to 7 to have that cushion. So if somebody leaves or like my friend that’s on maternity leave and, won’t be back until November, it’s it’s no big deal that somebody can step away. Everything’s still comfortable and there’s still a cushion and a pad. Yeah. Anna Saviano 00:36:45 Yeah. And I think figuring out where those numbers are for what you know your life costs, what overhead costs, what all of those things are admin costs. Anna Saviano 00:36:56 You know the things that are pretty Stable, you know, because obviously revenue is not necessarily always stable, but figuring out what those numbers are so that, you know, kind of where the metrics need to land month after month. And then you can maybe breathe easy for a moment. Andrew Burdette 00:37:16 Anything really stick out as a big deal in terms of the scaling and onboarding process that you’ve learned, so that your third iteration works better. I know for me, it’s been a matter of trying to have more detailed training videos. It’s been nice switching to W2 because I can specify the recipe and the prep work versus contractor where you say I need a cake but don’t necessarily tell somebody how to get there. Anna Saviano 00:37:38 Yeah, yeah, we’re W2. I do think that that is helpful in that way. I think that I’ve been going through our employee handbook and really just making sure that it captures a lot more, a lot more nuance than was ever really written down before. Because when it is small, I can have my hands in everybody’s business and really teach kind of as we go, how it needs to be, especially if you have new clinicians. Anna Saviano 00:38:07 But later on down the line, if there’s six people or 7 or 8 or people who’ve been licensed for a long time and so they’re not in supervision, then having that really clear handbook, and it also gives you the place to go back to of like, I don’t have to be distressed by this. That’s going on. I can just refer back to the handbook of like, here’s our policy, here’s how this is supposed to work, and you’re a little bit out of line with that, so you know that it gives you that to fall back on. and I think having just really clear expectations and a and an open door policy, you know, I think having a culture here where people feel able to talk to me to leadership, I think that I have had to put some parameters on, like when that needs to happen so that people are making appointments and I’m not getting caught totally off guard by phone calls at nighttime or whatever. but for the most part, having a lot of clarity, and it feels like overkill to tell people how to dress at work until, you know, somebody shows up in holey cut off shorty shorts or something, and it’s like, oh yeah, that’s not that’s not how we roll. Anna Saviano 00:39:25 which has not happened, but could you know, so having having those policies in place so people really just know what they’re signed up for. Andrew Burdette 00:39:34 There’s also the just what I’m learning is I want stuff kind of written down so that I don’t have to explain things five times. Yeah. You know, that’s one of the it’s one thing if it’s just me and one other 1 or 2 other people versus if I’m going to have 6 to 8 people, I don’t want to have 6 to 8 conversations if I can avoid it. Yeah. Anna Saviano 00:39:52 I mean, I think that that that makes a ton of sense And especially because I know that I do not always know necessarily exactly how I said it the next time or the last time. And so that piece of, well, let me just write it down so that everybody knows. Here’s what we decided, you know. so I think that that can go that is a super important part of things. I think another piece of the hiring, not just about clinical skills and the culture fit, but the last piece of kind of just the non tangible things people bring to the team. Anna Saviano 00:40:28 I know in our community, having connections to other people has been super valuable. You know, the people who have kids at different pediatrician’s offices or at, you know, friends who are therapists at different places, any of that kind of stuff that all of that is highly valuable in a way that is beyond just clinical skills or, you know, the team liking Everybody. Andrew Burdette 00:40:54 Yeah. that community dimension is really important. And it’s having worked in, in agency settings, like it can be just as isolating there too, because we are a closed door type work. Right. If I’m passing somebody in the hallway in between sessions, I’m going to be lined it to the bathroom, get some more water, and I don’t want to talk to you because I’m going to have to be on for another hour. Right? So yeah, trying to trying to find that balance in and build out some warm culture for stuff too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anna Saviano 00:41:23 I mean, I think we joke sometimes with laughter and sometimes with tears about how it’s just an always learning, you know, situation. Andrew Burdette 00:41:33 So yeah, I think Joe’s term for that is, you build the plane as are flying it, and that seems to be pretty accurate. And yeah, maybe another set of wings would be good or another pilot or some other thing. Anna Saviano 00:41:44 You’re building a plane and you’re like, wait, this isn’t a plane, this is a helicopter. What happened? Anna Saviano 00:41:47 Like, yeah. Anna Saviano 00:41:49 I thought I was building this one thing. Right. Andrew Burdette 00:41:51 So welcome back. If you were listening and it sounds different, we have had some technical issues trying to finish out this episode. So, we were chatting ahead of getting started in this segment about we had I think we had mostly covered onboarding and just talking about the importance of cultural fit and in your practice, and that obviously clinical skills are important, but if it’s somebody that you don’t want to be in the same room with, it’s not a good fit for. Who’s in your practice? did you have any other I guess, like in summary, like, fit matters in clinical skills matter and you should have concepts about who belongs kind of thing. Anna Saviano 00:42:30 I mean, I think the clinical skills obviously personal fit and kind of that I said this before about career pathing or having a similar set of goals for a person. If you, you know, if the top priority is having a lot of stability and sort of a 9 to 5, then a nonprofit is probably a better fit if you want to maximize just the most money possible in your pocket than probably being by yourself in a solo is the best fit. And if you want, you know, decent money, but also flexibility. Group practice, I think, is the best fit. So really helping as you’re onboarding and kind of talking to potential candidates that having a lot of clarity around what their career goals are, not forever, but at least for the next like few years, you know? So I think that that’s important too. Andrew Burdette 00:43:23 Yeah. Some of the in my job description and things like that, asking trying to get people to think about what kind of structure do they want, having doing something to kind of help them understand the income is going to fluctuate in a group typically, you know, eventually, like I think groups aim to get to a point to where they can salary people and then the fluctuations removed. Andrew Burdette 00:43:43 But again, that’s an economy of scale. It takes a while to get there. And whether insurance based or not, it’s going to influence that decision as well. Right? and then just, you know, time management and how much flexibility do you want? I mean, I’ve got somebody that is coming out of the highly structured VA system. And so some of the questions were really interesting of like, you know, it says your office, you know, your business hours or between 7 and 10 and like, does that mean I’m expected to be able to take. I’m like, no, no, no, no. That just means it like. Anna Saviano 00:44:13 Somebody does it. Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:44:14 That’s just what’s on Psychology Today doesn’t necessarily it’s not necessarily you. Right. Like it’s you know it’s a great question and I understand the mindset of just cultural differences. Right. Where right. You know the expectation over there is you show up at 8 or 9:00 in the morning and stay till 5 or 6, and you’re always available during those hours. Andrew Burdette 00:44:30 And that sounds awful to me. personally, it’s not what I want to create. Anna Saviano 00:44:34 Right? That’s why private practice exists in one of those pros is the flexibility, for sure. And that doesn’t feel great for everybody. So you know, that’s that’s a factor as well. Andrew Burdette 00:44:46 Also too. On that note, since we’re talking onboarding and hiring like I have friends that, run group practices too, and we have different structures, and sometimes the structure is different enough that somebody in one practice does really poorly because culturally and structurally, it’s not a good fit. And then it’s almost like you’re trading, you know, baseball team players to like some other baseball team, and they end up in another practice and they thrive because structurally it’s a good fit. Like, you know, culturally in terms of who’s there and just the vibe of the place, like vibes. Actually, I live in Asheville, so vibes is like the word is like, you know, what kind of vibe is this given off? But it does matter. Andrew Burdette 00:45:25 Like, you know, are these people you would want to sit down and have a cup of coffee with. and can you when you do and is it comfortable? Anna Saviano 00:45:31 Yeah, I think that that’s a good point too, in just the comparison piece of it. You know, there’s always talk amongst clinicians at different places about what it’s like here or there. And obviously owners talk about different practices and how do you do your pay roll and how do you do your whatever? and I think that’s all super helpful, but also can be like trying to compare apples to oranges, right? Like even when you talk about ten, 99 or W2 and why are those different and why does it look different here versus there? And that it also might be that management or admin people do a ton, or you’re supposed to kind of like be more self-starting and take the initiative, and those different styles are going to look really different for different clinicians. And I think when we try and say, well, like, I want us to do it that way, the way that they do it well, they might have a whole different and different ballgame, different benefits package, different structure, I mean, all of those things. Anna Saviano 00:46:29 So I think that’s kind of a cautionary thing or just a consideration of like knowing that just because it’s a group practice doesn’t mean that they’re all like that similar necessarily. Andrew Burdette 00:46:42 I will say out of the group practice centers I talked to regularly locally. We’re all fairly consistent for in terms of compensation. and some of that’s intentional in terms of just trying to raise the overall baseline that we all kind of exist in. And so, just trying to elevate the therapist community locally in a professional level. And then the other part of it is like, we’re really not trying to compete for people. There’s plenty of therapists, there’s plenty of work to go around. It’s a matter of just, are we the right home for you? For this professionally is really the goal. And trying to walk people through why, you know, Veterans Administration compensation is going to look different than, say, like a private practice or solo. And, you know, because the math is different and the funding is different and trying to help potential therapists. Andrew Burdette 00:47:30 Yeah, yeah. The funding is a big part of how does funding come through. And that that did take dictates pretty much everything else. So Anna Saviano 00:47:38 It’s cool that your community is is collaborative in that way. I know some practice owners here, but I know more across the country than I do in Kansas City. not for any particular reason. We have a lot of solo practitioners too, and so I think that’s more the comparison people make. is doing it by yourself or doing it in a group setting. Andrew Burdette 00:48:03 One of the things that comes up a lot in, in terms of helping people decide solo versus group and identifying the differences because, you know, numbers and pay, definitely come in. And if you’re looking at group, whether it’s compensation for either ten, 99 or W2, you’re seeing after expenses costs. And so that number is going to be very different than the potential revenue you can generate as a solo person. But you know, you start explaining to people, it’s like, well, you could see 25 people a week here as a solo or 25 people as a group. Andrew Burdette 00:48:34 And your work week in my practice, let’s say, for seeing 25, is going to pretty much cap out around 32 hours a week, and you’re not going to have to do. You don’t have to deal with insurance billing. We have somebody to handle that for you. Most of your phone calls coming up in the next couple of months are going to get routed through an admin, and that’s going to be really that loads coming off your plate, you know, have to make business decisions in the same way. And so, so I assure you can generate more revenue, but you’re going to be spending another 10 to 20 hours a week, possibly like dealing with these other businesses. Yeah, yeah. And how much do you really want to do that. So. Right. Anna Saviano 00:49:07 Yeah. I mean, I think I mean, I bet people see 25 people in our group, maybe they work. I mean, there’s supervision or those kind of meetings, but that’s a couple hours every other week. Maybe they’re working 28 hours a week. Anna Saviano 00:49:22 27. You know, if you’re doing your notes in the ten minutes between if you can make that happen, there’s very little other outside client work work. So yeah. Pros and cons. Andrew Burdette 00:49:35 Yeah. It’s I’m smiling about the nose thing because I have two newer, newer clinicians. And so they’re still doing the very like school and writing, writing very detailed. Just like it’s fine. Just, you know, at some point you’re going to probably decide the trade off of taking 15 minutes to do a note versus five. And, you know, and again, it’s I’m going to leave it up to you. But you know, again, it’s just it’s that kind of also acknowledgement of this is where you are in your career development. Right. And that’s great. And you should learn how to do really detailed notes at that level if you want to, but you should. Anna Saviano 00:50:07 Stop doing it because it’s not that efficient. Necessary. Andrew Burdette 00:50:10 Yes, exactly. And so again, having those conversations about you’re not wrong and here’s other ways to do it. Andrew Burdette 00:50:16 And honestly, just because we have technology and cool tools, I’m starting to play around with some of the AI tools for notetaking so they’re affordable enough. I think it could save time, but, I want to make sure whoever’s on my crew actually knows how to do good notes first. Yeah. So yeah. Anna Saviano 00:50:34 I think that that’s like an interesting as we’re hiring and onboarding and working on our employee manual. And just that idea of like, first, let’s make sure you can do all this stuff really well, and then we can start talking about how to streamline or make it less time consuming or whatever else. we were talking about some of those, like expectations. We talked about this before too. But on my team we’ve been talking about like team expectations and hours worked in some of those things. And it’s like, I do think you have to have the the expectations set really clearly. And then once people are proficient then it doesn’t matter quite so much. You know, what their hours are. If they’re making all their hours, do they need to work three evenings a week? I mean, not necessarily. Anna Saviano 00:51:17 If you can see 25 clients and be done by four, then good for you. You know, more power to you. But at the beginning to have it, you know you need to have evenings, for example. Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:51:29 So on things like trainings and other stuff like that, it’s been interesting. I have hired 5 or 6 people at this point. it’s Friday, I’m kind of losing count at this point. I’ve got one on maternity leave, so let’s see. I’ve got three and then I’m starting another one. So I’ve had to have somebody come and go in my practice. So I guess it’s what, 6 or 7 I think, what they have to do and also going from contractor to W2 is kind of changed what onboarding looks like, because now I get to be more specific in a good way because it really empowers the clinician, not in a micro managerial way. I think that’s a important distinction too. But this year, especially having a third person coming up, starting, I’m doing a much better job about trying to really document out what that process looks like and then thinking of systems to kind of make that an easier, replicable thing. Andrew Burdette 00:52:17 Yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:52:18 I know some of the practice of the practice people have shared spreadsheets and things like that that they kind of coordinate on. one of the things that is kind of a newer experience for me is, is looking at, project management softwares like Trello and Asana and really trying to incorporate that in my private practice, and so do you. I think the plan for us is to to come up with a template for hiring clinicians through asana, and then that can all get shared and duplicated. Anna Saviano 00:52:44 Project management software. Andrew Burdette 00:52:46 I have thoughts too, good and bad, but do you use anything like that for yours? Anna Saviano 00:52:52 So we use Trello, and I think it’s a great platform that we definitely don’t utilize all of the features of very well. it’s a lot, you know, you can make a million boards and lists and cards and all of that. So we use it sort of not as much of a working space as much as a list process keeping space. So like where we have all of our SOP kind of outlines and what the checklists are for onboarding, what we use more in a dynamic way is all of the Google features and Google Sheets, which is my which is dear to my heart. Anna Saviano 00:53:32 and Google tables in using tables in sheets so that you can have it be an active checking off. And I know that Trello has that feature, but we just Trello has never gotten into our system enough. And so Google really just adds features all the time that make things easier to use there, and we can share it, and everybody can be in the same spot at the same time, updating things and doing all of that. So we’ve really worked to have that onboarding process really clear in that way. And also and this is I think the one of the things we wanted to make sure we talked about was the off boarding process. You know, when people leave and I’ve had more than one person leave, I’ve had a handful of people leave over the course of the years and in different for different reasons. And some has been more and less contentious. Right. Like and I think that as a practice owner, having the systems in place that make it clear. So what are the rules about leaving? What do people do with their clients? How is that process? How does that unfold? And also the personal side of it. Anna Saviano 00:54:36 Right. Like it sucks. It feels like rejection. It can create financial insecurity. It can be stressful to deal with all of the clients that have to be moved around. and figuring out, I think that this is where I’ve been, you know, with different onboarding or onboarding processes that sometimes it’s like, what is this bringing up for me that I need to sort out with my own support people? Because it’s a lot. I mean, not that anybody who owns a group practice doesn’t know that all of it is a lot, but I think that that feels, at least in my experience, that has been the part that’s more personal and challenging to navigate and does not always bring out the most graceful aspects of my character. So trying to have a lot of clarity so that my own feelings are not what’s driving any of the exchanges or any of the process. And I’ve done that with like varying degrees of success, you know, is very much depended. Andrew Burdette 00:55:33 You had talked yesterday. I think it was about just how being a business owner and in particular, like being a group practice owner, kind of highlights, highlights all aspects of self, right? Yes. Andrew Burdette 00:55:45 The good, the bad. And you’re like, I think it’s somebody somebody had said when I mentioned I was hiring somebody initially they were like, that’s like adulting, like cubed in a way. And like, I think that exponential like attention to things is very applicable across all the group practice because solo is like, you know, string a thousand paperclips together and then group is do that ten times in five other different combination. Anna Saviano 00:56:09 Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I think that that’s probably the biggest challenge that I deal with is kind of keeping an eye on all the different lanes at the same time. And you know, how’s culture going in the whole practice? How’s the numbers? How’s the revenue? What about hiring? What about onboarding? How are the processes. And then there’s just like wanting to do the people interaction. And I also have a caseload. I also have two kids, you know, and sometimes I feel like group ownership is like having ten kids instead of two, in terms of wanting to strike all the balances of caring about the people, for sure, and also needing to take care of the business so that it is sustaining. Anna Saviano 00:56:52 And how does that always balance or not? You know, and when you have to make hard decisions about this is where the pay has to stay or this is the limit on furnishing or whatever, and having to say no to people, which is like not my favorite thing to do by a long shot. So I think that those are those are things that you have to kind of get your head around as a group practice owner and really think through all the steps. Andrew Burdette 00:57:17 One thing along those lines, too, that’s been really crucial, is being able to have the conversation to say, I’m making this decision and it’s business related. It’s not personal. And here’s why. And just I believe in transparency with people I know. That’s one of the things that really turns me off. Working in the past of working for other people is not knowing why decisions are getting made. Or and then you get you know, I also went through four corporate takeovers over like the 2010. So you’d kind of sense something was happening. Andrew Burdette 00:57:45 And then a big nuclear bomb got dropped on everybody. You’re like, come on man, this stinks right? Yeah. So doing my best to like really not be in that position, but just in terms of leadership style and discussing it with people, just saying, hey, here’s the numbers. Blue cross is only going to this is as far as Blue Cross is going to take us for pay. And every year in North Carolina on April 1st, it’s going to change again because that’s only redo their their pay fees for the year. So just setting up expectations ahead of time so that people kind of know and are prepared. And I mean even I think you and I were talking about, yesterday, I was onboarding somebody in the middle of the change health health insurance debacle and having to talk through that of just saying this really isn’t how anything normally works. And I’m sorry the timing stinks on this. But yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:58:34 You know, and. Anna Saviano 00:58:34 That’s part of it, right? Is that there’s plenty of things, most of them, in fact, that are outside of our control. Anna Saviano 00:58:40 We don’t take insurance for private pay. And so there’s that inconsistent call volume. Summers are slower, you know, that kind of thing. And so part of what we do also with onboarding but just ongoing is a conversation. And we’re doing more of this the older our practice gets. But like conversation around how do you sort of manage your personal self to account for this ebb and flow of business? I’m not trying to manage anybody’s finances, but just like, hey guys, remember that here’s how things go. So plan your time off when it’s already going to be slow or whatever. so yeah. Andrew Burdette 00:59:22 as you’ve onboarded people. The one one person I off boarded and this was early on when I got started with the group. It really highlighted not having a checklist was a bad thing. Anna Saviano 00:59:32 Oh, not having a checklist. Well, yeah. And not having things. I mean, we’ve been W2 the whole time after the first couple of months. And so having things in your employee handbook like more explicitly than I ever like, my default is to be like, everything’s gonna be fine. Anna Saviano 00:59:49 Like I’m kind of a hippie. I’m a yes person. I’m like, it’ll all work out. And depending on your definition of working out, I suppose it has. But also it it’s super sucks to have a lack of clarity and not a checklist. And then I think you mentioned this before of like, oh, that person still has email through us or, you know, whatever it is, that there are kind of a decent number of things that have to be tended to practically and sort of otherwise, you know, making sure that notes are done and some of that, but that also, like, you get your keys back and you take them off your EHR and do all of those things. so for sure, I mean, make a list for things because no need to be thinking about this every time for the first time. That does not make sense. Andrew Burdette 01:00:36 Yeah. And honestly, like starting with a spreadsheet puts you miles ahead. because you can kind of do the list of I got everybody on and then you can kind of have a second column and just check everything off. Andrew Burdette 01:00:46 I think for us, at least in terms of trying to move away from strictly spreadsheets in Google Workspace, where a Google Workspace based practice as well is trying to remember where we put things in Google Workspace has been the problem. So that’s, I think, part of our concept of how to utilize asana as a front end to say, here’s our hiring related things and here’s where to find things in the drive. Or here’s a checklist over here in asana. And yeah, utilize things as a front end. More than a back end. Andrew Burdette 01:01:14 Yeah. Yeah. Anna Saviano 01:01:14 I mean, Google Drive can get out of hand real easily. So we have some shared workspaces and try and keep things in folders. And I still end up, you know, searching for most things that I’m looking for in Google instead of just having it be in front of me. So, yeah, you know, always learning. Andrew Burdette 01:01:31 Yeah. more wings to the plane, like we were saying yesterday. Yes, exactly. so we’ve talked hiring, onboarding, onboarding. Andrew Burdette 01:01:39 Any any key takeaways you want to make sure listeners have from this conversation about the overall picture of hiring to departure, if that’s in the cards? Anna Saviano 01:01:51 I mean, I think it is in the cards, right? Like you’re not going to hire five people and have them work for you until they retire. And I think that really dealing with the existential angst of that, right, like the the fact that people are going to leave and the more you can practice acceptance of that and set yourself up to be not flailing when that happens. And I think to, you know, having a community, the people that I know in the group practice owner circles are like the people that keep me sane, right? When it’s when people are leaving or people are struggling or there’s a million questions and, you know, having other owners that get it at that level for practical information, but also just that moral support and kind of validation of, yeah, it is hard, but I think recognizing that as practices grow and change, the team is going to grow and change and that that doesn’t automatically mean bad things. Anna Saviano 01:02:53 It doesn’t mean you’re doing it wrong. It doesn’t mean that you, you know, mess it all up. It’s just all part of the process of growing a group practice and growing as a business owner. And, you know, most of us obviously didn’t go to like BA school, business school, whatever MBA. I don’t even know what the schools are that I didn’t go to. But I’m learning all this as we’re doing it. So, trying to just hold a lot of grace for yourself and the people on your team. you know, everybody I truly think is like doing the best they can and wanting to be successful and do right by one another. And so grace in that regard, even when it’s clunky and uncomfortable. Andrew Burdette 01:03:35 Yeah. And on that note, too, I think there’s some benefits of being really directive, like having that candid conversation of just if this is not the right practice for you, that’s fine. How can we help you find the right place for you so you’re happy and let this be? And if this isn’t the place for you, okay, like, how can we help you get to a place that you might feel more comfortable and set up? Anna Saviano 01:03:59 It’s hard out there. Andrew Burdette 01:04:00 Yeah. well thanks for coming on. Any, any pluggable takeaways. If somebody wants to get Ahold of you how can they find you. And we’ll have all that linked below as well. Andrew Burdette 01:04:08 Yeah sure. Anna Saviano 01:04:09 our website is Heartland Therapy connection.com. That is also Instagram Facebook. LinkedIn. Also, I’m on Instagram. Anna Saviano, LPC licensed professional counselor. and I think that that kind of is, is where we are. So Kansas City, middle of the middle of the country. If you’re passing through, let me know. And, yeah, we’re here. Andrew Burdette 01:04:34 Sounds good. All right. Well, thanks for coming on. And, listeners, thanks for tuning in. Thanks. If you love this podcast, please be sure to rate and review. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guest are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or any other professional information. If you want professional, you should find one.