[JOE SANOK] This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 777. I’m Joe Sanok, your host and welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. We have been doing this whole series and we’re continuing to do this series all about how I leveled up, so interviewing people about their level up stories, what that looked like, just thinking through leveling up in a variety of ways. And really this is in preparation for Level Up Week, which kicks off on September 12th. We have over 15 webinars for every phase of practice over there at practiceofthepractice.com/levelup. You’ll see that whether you’re just getting started, maybe you want to start a practice, we have a bunch of webinars around that. If you’re leveling up from a solo practice to adding your first clinicians, some of the technical things and what you need to think through, if you have a thriving group practice, we have webinars around that. Then also maybe you’re leveling up beyond private practice wanting to get a book deal. Nancy, my writing coach, is going to be speaking with us all about how to get book deals. We’ve also got Dana, who I interviewed talking about Instagram and Instagram reels, all sorts of things about leveling up. So make sure you sign up for whichever webinars suit your fancy over at practiceofpractice.com/levelup. I’m really excited today we have Mark Strubler. Mark is trained and has worked as a professional musician producer before finding counseling as his professional calling. Through his own story of addressing pain, he found that he wanted to walk through other people’s pain toward a place of healing and peace and started practicing in 2017. Mark, welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. [MARK STRUBLER] Hey, Joe, really good to be here today with you. [JOE] It’s always fun to have conversations with people whose faces I know. You’ve been on so many of the Zoom calls with our communities that, I mean, it’s like you show up for yourself so much that it’s great to hang out with people that I know have been in our communities for a while. So welcome. [MARK] Yes, thank you so much. I love showing up to those calls. [JOE] Well, let’s just start with, so professional musician, I mean, I didn’t even know that. That didn’t come up before right now as I read your intro. Tell me about being in the musical world. [MARK] Sure. I come from a family that goes generations back with professional musicians. My mom most recently was in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra for 30 years, and they always just said play an instrument. I found the bass and ended up really enjoying that. I ended up going to Berkeley College of Music in Boston, graduating from there and worked for a short period of time as a professional music producer and writer down in the Nashville area. [JOE] Wow. That just seems like something that, like being an NBA player that kids dream of, but they nobody ever actually does but you went and did it. [MARK] Yes. It was a really good time. What I loved the most about it was connecting with the people and being creative and just putting together an experience. That’s what I felt was my area of expertise, was putting that experience together for people. [JOE] So when did things start to shift to wanting to learn more about counseling, going to school for counseling, and then eventually opening a practice? [MARK] I actually had a coming down on experience of I could see what it would take to really go far in the music industry and I really wanted to have a family and I saw that those two didn’t really align with what the music industry was requiring of me. So I just remember it like, oh, I really loved math and processes, so I went and I worked in logistics, supply chain continuous improvement for a number of years and learned a lot and enjoyed connecting with people but it was at one point where one of my coworkers on my team, she was crying because she had just sprained her ankle on the job and her job was to walk around her plant and just count parts all day. That was her job and she had been at the company for, I don’t know, well over 10 years, great employee, but she was afraid of losing her job and that blew my mind too, like, well, you got hurt here. They should be probably more concerned. But I just really enjoyed sitting with her and encouraging her and letting her know that I would be there to listen to her and help her through this process. It was shortly after that that I signed up for my counseling program and put my two weeks in at that company. [JOE] Wow. What was it about, I mean, I think a lot of people have conversations with coworkers or they encourage people. How did it go from just encouraging a coworker to say I think I want to make a career out of this? [MARK] Yes, it was just that moment of knowing that I like people more than I like processes. Now I still use processes, which I can talk about today as a therapist but it was when I heard my career path laid out by my boss and it was like, you’re going to do this and you go up the corporate ladder basically. I saw he was working seven days a week, traveling barely seeing his kids and I was like, that does not sound like the life I want. That was another key moment too, at that same job. [JOE] Well, and then, so you’re going through graduate school. At what point do you decide that you think you want to start a private practice? [MARK] I think I’d always known. A good friend of mine down in Tennessee, shout out to Noah, I knew him while he was going through his process of becoming a therapist and I saw him create his own practice and really catapult toward success in that. But I joined a group, a really nice group in the area that I live in and provided free supervision and a lot of EMDR consultation, which is important to me. So I had always had in the back of my mind, but it was really I think April of 2020 that I was like, okay, I guess I’ll go for it. Then I transitioned out of the group at that point. [JOE] So what was helpful when you started to transition out because April, 2020, a couple things were going on in the world at that point, and so what, I don’t know, a global pandemic and lockdown and you’re like, “Hey, I’m going to start a business.” What was helpful during that time to help you know what to do, the steps to do it? I think a lot of people get stuck on just the logistical and operational sides, but then also matching that with your value set and what you want to create. What was helpful during that time? [MARK] Yes, I think it was just keeping it simple to start because I didn’t need to worry about an office location at that time. So what I did was, I’m all virtual, I didn’t see, foresee any time going back in the office. So I was like, well there’s one expense I don’t have to worry about. All I really needed was a good EHR system and my own paperwork apart from my practice that I was still a part of at the time and I let them know like, hey, I am doing my own thing. So I was always upfront with them, but yes, I was just keeping it simple at first and not putting massive expectations on myself right off the bat. [JOE] Now were you, did you start by just doing it part-time on the side and then growing into full-time, or take us through that process of growing it? [MARK] Yes, so I was able to grow it. I don’t know, I probably had, through that year I got maybe five clients, but I did have my clients from my other practice that I was still seeing. What I did was in January of 2021, so I’ll say eight months later, I put in my notice, my two-months’ notice at my group practice, said in March I will be moving on, thank you so much. Made sure the transition went well and then I just dove right in. Yes, it was a little wonky at first. That’s when I really started to feel it. I was like, okay, now I got to really figure out my processes and how do I get clients because I was still all virtual at that point. So yes, it was more just like fumbling around at that point when I left the group because that’s what they offer. [JOE] Yes. So as you transitioned out of a group practice into your own, it’s one thing to have five side clients, but then to really say, okay, I’m going to take this seriously, I’m going to leave that group, what were like, how did you think through that process of leveling up? [MARK] I love processes, I love numbers, so I was looking at what I could potentially make in private practice on my own versus being part of a group, having the split taken out and I was like, this mathematically going forward doesn’t work. It doesn’t align with my financial goals. That’s when I just decided to go for it and I, my wife gave me the support to do that thankfully. Yes, it was just seeing that difference in what I could potentially do. [JOE] Now, was your wife working out of the home at that time or were you the primary income earn? [MARK] She was. She definitely, she’s always had a great job, so that’s always carried us with healthcare and everything, so yes, that’s always been. [JOE] Yes, that’s nice to have but it’s also like part of just part of the equation. So what were some of the, when you think about, I don’t know, your first three months, your first quarter when you’re completely on your own, what were some of the things that you really focused in on that you’re like, man that was great that I focused in on those things, that was really smart versus that maybe there were things that you also focused on that you’re like, that was not the best use of my time early on? [MARK] I think what I really focused in on was continuing to give the quality of care. I think that’s something I hope most of us are proficient, but quality of care was important, making sure my ducks were in a row with paperwork and everything because I knew that if I’m going to do this, I have to have a system. Even though I didn’t write it down, being in the group practice before taught me that system, which was helpful. So I knew I had to focus on carrying that over to mine, like creating my own system. I can’t just be doing whatever I want. I have to have some sense of accountability to being on time with notes and being up front with my clients. [JOE] What did that look like when you, like, did you have specific things that you made for yourself, like you said notes, what boundaries or outcomes did you set for yourself? [MARK] What I learned from the group practice was just to make sure I got my notes done in a very timely manner, so that’d be within, before the end of the next day or the same with intake paperwork, for example, getting that done within 72 hours of seeing that person. So still staying within those boundaries so that if anything were to come up ever that that would be secure and I could always rest on that because I’m very much about protecting my license so that I can continue to do the work that I love. [JOE] What else did you focus on in those early months? [MARK] Well, it was a lot going on at home. So it was keeping home as restful as possible but it was also looking into other ways to maybe express myself through counseling, but also maybe do some trainings, some EMDR trainings or learning how to do telehealth correctly. I did some telehealth trainings on best practices for that, so just making sure that I’m doing everything on my end to again, have my ducks in a row. [JOE] When did you start to level up even more? What would you say the next big like key performance indicator or next growth level? So you leave the group practice, you’re growing the solo practice, were there certain numbers that for you of clients or finances or just things that you say, yes, I really leveled up to this next thing. What was next as you grew it? [MARK] It was actually a very low moment. I got to August of 2021 a year ago and I was feeling extremely anxious, like my body felt like it was buzzing basically. It was my lowest number of clients that I’ve ever seen in a month. I’ll just throw out numbers, I only was able to make $1,600 that month gross. I was just very fearful and I was like what’s going to come of this? What am I doing wrong? So I took a trip up north, that’s a, for the non-Michigan folks, you and I are Michigan folks, Joe, but I went to the UP with my dad. He and I connect in the outdoors immensely and we were able to go out and just be in nature hike and canoe and really connect to the land, which is important to me. That re-grounded me and I came back feeling calmer, more courageous to say, okay, let’s take another go at this. It was shortly after that that I signed up for NLP, Next Level practice. [JOE] What was it about that moment that you decided you wanted some support in the community? [MARK] It was just recognizing that while I do have my strengths, I know that in community that we can grow significantly more, especially if you walk in without a scarcity mindset, like we all have something to offer but we can also receive. That’s what I really felt that this community offered as well. After you and I briefly spoke the first time and also just from all the meetings that really confirmed that being in a community is what’s healing but it also provides accountability and great ideas. It’s a whole different energy than trying to do it on your own, which I had been trying to do. [BRIGHTER VISION] It’s that time of year, again. My friends over at Brighter Vision are once again kicking off the full season with a month-long digital conference event they call Fall Into Cash. 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[JOE SANOK] Now, when you think about Next Level Practice, what were some of the key takeaways for you that really helped you to maybe organize your practice, feel encouraged or like things that just were helpful for you? [MARK] I mean the very first thing I’m going to, I’m going to give it to you, but I think I had won a 15-minute call with you at the beginning because I guess I was the first person or something to sign up, if you remember that. The thing that really stood out to me that you said was like, how many clients are you seeing now? I said, I don’t know, like 10. It was pretty low. You said, how many do you want to see? 25. Then you said, are you working 25 hours a week right now or are you doing laundry because you know, and I was like, yes, I’m doing laundry Joe. I’m doing the dishes when I’m not seeing clients. So you said take those extra 15 hours and you work through the first six months, so do you know a month of NLP on Teachable? Do it in a week. So condense it. I just started doing that and I really don’t know how to explain it because I didn’t really do too much different, but I did those things that you told me to do and it just exploded. [JOE] Define exploded. What did that, like, what numbers are we talking? [MARK] So by the end of the year, I was grossing about probably, what was that, I think in December it was $6,600 gross that month up from that $1600 in August and it just climbed September, October, November, December. My total income last year, I’ll just go numbers because I like numbers was 50k. That was from the rest of the group plus my private practice income, which is not bad for a first year. But I was like, I think I can do more and then this year, I mean it’s just gone beyond explosion. It’s amazing. [JOE] That’s so awesome. Now I know you struggled a little bit with raising your rates and thinking about your rates. Do you want to talk about that process when we were in what’s working and we did a little laser coaching in front of a bunch of people [MARK] Oh yes, I was squirming like crazy. Oh, my goodness. So I think what had happened was my rates were all the same. I was at like $130 per session, which is not bad in this area. Then I started to get more people and I think just through the group I was like, okay, I’ll raise my rates. So I bumped them up to $150 and that was also at the encouraging of a woman who’s in my office as well because she said, wait, you only charge $130. I’m not going to send people to you unless you charge $150. I’m like, oh, okay. Sounds like a plan. So I think in that meeting, I think I had mentioned that like, hey, I’m getting more full. I’m 90% full. You said, well, it’s time to raise your rates. That seemed a little odd to me because I was like, well I just raised my rates and I mean $150, wow, that’s crazy. People are coming in at $150. You really challenged me and I didn’t think it would work, but you said bump it to $185 and I’ve had five or six people that I’ve started on that pay that rate. [JOE] Now what was hard from a, I guess way you talked to yourself, like internal dialogue level, what was hard from just a, oftentimes the narrative we hear in school is we didn’t go in it for the money. What did you have to stand up against to raise your rates to that level that you feel uncomfortable? [MARK] Yes, I mean, you mentioned school and the very, one of the very first things I heard from my first professor or first class was, you’re not going to make a lot of money in this. You just put it out there. I was like, wow, okay. But then I would see my friend charging us almost that amount that you challenged me to put out there. So I’m having these dichotomous views and I’m comparing myself to him or I’m comparing myself to others that are charging that rate and saying, well I’m not that far along. I’ve only been in X number of years. What do I have to offer? So it’s that negative self-talk and that was quite a barrier to push through, but through you challenging me and then Dana checking in saying, Mark, how many people did you ask during our NLP small groups? I just kept, that’s my rate now and if people want to see me privately, that’s what it is. [JOE] What advice would you have for people that are looking to level up? Maybe they’re wanting to start a practice, maybe they already have a solo practice, the things that you’ve learned in just a couple years? I mean you really, I think by you spending that 15 hours a week when you weren’t full to the amount you were, like you just fast forwarded your growth. What would you recommend to people that are just getting going? [MARK] I think it’s really important to establish a strong community of other therapists but also people slightly outside that are maybe business people and just spend time with them, talk with them in whatever way they feel comfortable obviously, with meeting in-person or telehealth, whatever it may be. But really work on establishing a community because then that allows you to build a referral base because people get to know you. That’s what I’ve brought up in groups, was the way I like to do marketing is getting people to know me as a person and then they feel very comfortable. That’s what I suggest is really work on establishing a community. If you take an off day, like my off day is Fridays, I go and, yes sir, Thursday is my Friday, little plug. But yes, Fridays is my do a little admin work but meet with other therapists for lunch or for coffee, just hang out, not with a, hey, what are your credentials and what trainings are you doing. That can come up but it’s more about tell me about your family. What do you love? What are you struggling with? What are you doing well with? That has just really shifted everything, like I have more referrals than I can take right now. [JOE] Now why do think that that approach to networking works compared to maybe how most people network? [MARK] I think it’s intention and people want to connect. I think especially after what we’ve been through these last few years or two years people are hungry to come out whether, even if it’s just to talk with somebody over the phone. People are hungry to really connect on a deeper level and especially in a time when it feels really divisive and if there’s a way to meet together, even if it’s just like, hey, we’re two counselors, it breaks down those barriers and you can get to know each other that way. Then not only does that create a strong connection, maybe even a friendship, but it can create those strong referral relationships as well. I’m trying to, bring more clinicians in my area into this, like, hey, let’s get coffee, let’s get lunch, you come meet this therapist. I’m always introducing people too. [JOE] Now with you saying you’re bursting at the seams, do you see a group practice in your future or do you feel like you’ll stay solo for a while? What are your thoughts at this phase? [MARK] That is a great question. I mean, this year I’m just really trying to focus on managing my new client load well because I’ve never had this many. So numbers wise, I was at 50K last year. I’m probably going to be at 120 this year, which is something I could have never imagined. Yes, I’m already at almost 75 so far this year and then all almost filled up for the rest of the year here. I feel like that, I just want to understand how to really run that well, maybe button up a few things with paperwork and make sure everything’s running very smoothly. But yes, I think possibly a group or moving into some writing or some subscription service or doing different groups, that’s something that I’m very curious about once I get this system moving along well. [JOE] Yes, I think that’s a important point to really try to hone in on your system. The analogy I like is if your plate is full, yes, don’t add too much extra to it. You want to really clean it up as much as possible to have that time and space to think about something bigger. I do think that sometimes a group practice can do that depending on what the case load looks like, where then you’re automating. Even if it’s 10% of your income, where that’s not based on your time it can be that. But when I think about the audience building in particular, definitely want to like free up that free time and that free energy so that if you’re doing the audience building or membership stuff that you’ve automated some things. Well, well Mark, the last question that I always ask is, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? [MARK] I would want them to know that the work they’re doing now more than ever is so needed. That they’re needed and that just at their core that they’re a worthy, wonderful person. If they can lead from that identity at their core, it will come out in their work. [JOE] Such wise words. Mark, if people want to connect with you, if they want to follow you, what’s the best spot to send them? [MARK] Sure, it would be www.markstrublercounseling.com. I’m not too much in the social media at least right now, but my website definitely has all my contact info. [JOE] Oh, that’s so awesome. Well, thank you Mark for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast. [MARK] Thanks so much, Joe. What a pleasure to be here with you. [JOE] What I love about Mark is that even though as he was working, he had a sense of urgency that he doesn’t have that sense of urgency and the sense that he’s like freaking out and I got to do the next thing, I’ve got to hurry into the next thing. It seems so thoughtful and methodical and even his history in music or in the operations world that he’s thinking through his decisions and saying this is that next step that I need to take and I’m going to work on that well. I’m going to feel good about it and then I’m going to hopefully keep everything that’s distracting me on the sidelines until I jump into that next system. Even just starting with a strong community of people that surround Mark, that help Mark, whether that’s through Next Level Practice or through people in his community or just friends he’s made through his networking, I mean that over and over is core to people leveling up of finding those people that are like-minded to push you. Because if he had just thought and followed his professor that said, yes, you can’t make any money, that’s all the information he would’ve had versus his friend who was making money in private practice, meeting people in Next Level Practice, all these other people that are doing it well. So take some advice from Mark. Take some steps forward. Don’t forget to register for Level Up Week over at practiceofthepractice.com/levelup. We could not do this show without our amazing sponsors. Brighter Vision is one of the best places to get your counseling website done. For a low monthly fee, you will get a website, you’ll get help with SEO, you’ll get access to social media help design. It’s amazing. We actually recently had Practice of the Practices website went down for a couple days because we switched hosting. We’ve outgrown what Brighter Vision could do for us but our IT department, like it was down for two days. When you have something like Brighter Vision, they’re on that probably before you even know your website’s down. So go ahead and check out brightervision.com/joe and you can read all about it, get three months for free. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.