[JOE SANOK]
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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 687.
[JOE]
I am Joe Sanok, your host, and welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I am so glad you are here. We are here in the end of March already. So hopefully quarter one is wrapping up nicely for you and you’ve taken some time to really focus on your goals, keep them front and center. Sometimes in January we think about that and then let them fall off. Let’s do a little reset, think through what is the impact you want to make on the world? One question that I ask my daughters is at the end of the year, what do you want to look back and say, some of your experiences were, some of the things that you wanted to do or get better at?

It was really cute right when we entered into 2022, my seven year old, she said, “I want to get better at skiing.” So we talked about how to get better at skiing. You have to ski and every time we want to go skiing, she says, “I don’t want to go skiing.” So it’s really hard to me to go if you say, I don’t want to go there. My older daughter, she said that she wants to get better at standup paddle boarding, which is really hard to do in the winter. So that’s going to be in a few months here in Michigan, because the ice is still on the lakes at this point. So soon enough, we will be doing all these different things. Funny how their goals were like completely opposite of each other. One’s a summer months’ thing and one’s a winter months’ thing.

Well, today I am so excited hanging out with Nate Page. Nate has been a member of our communities. He has a PhD, he’s a licensed psychologist, certified group psychotherapist and is a group therapist who helps other therapists by facilitating three online process-oriented training groups for therapists from all over the world. He organizes a large group therapy conference every six months and runs a virtual retreat program for helping professionals. So I’m so excited to have Nate on the Practice of the Practice podcast. I’ve known him through our communities and Nate, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast.
[NATE PAGE]
Thank you for having me. This is exciting, Joe. It’s my first ever podcast.
[JOE]
I love having people on and being their first ever interview. That’s so awesome. I feel like you’re making everything sound like you’ve been doing this for years, so you’re just setting yourself up for success.
[NATE]
Well, good, so I’m starting off, it sounds like.
[JOE]
You sure are. You sure are. Cool. Well, let’s just dig in a little bit to your history. I know we’re going to talk about you going into private practice, but frame out for us a little bit of who you are, your schooling, how you decided to start a private practice, all of that backstory.
[NATE]
So I discovered you, I think it was 2015. I was on my postdoc at a counseling center in Iowa and I remember running and I would listen to you when I was running and it was your 100th episode and that blew my mind. I remember you were blown away too.
[JOE]
Yes, like I can’t believe I did this for a hundred episodes.
[NATE]
And you’re well past that now. But I, like most people didn’t have any experience with private practice, no family members that were entrepreneurs, in graduate school we didn’t do really anything. I think there was one field trip to a private practice, but I missed it that day and I was bummed. But when I’ve discovered your podcast and your website that really opened up the door for learning like, oh my goodness, I can actually learn about these things. I ate it up. I loved it. What was really nice actually, so I landed my dream job at a counseling center. My whole career was in college counseling here in.

So I was here in Northfield, Minnesota in 2016, but my partner who was also doing her postdoc with me, she was going to move into private practice. So I got to implement so many of the things that I was learning through Practice of the Practice with her. I built the website for her. I remember a podcast episode you had on how to optimize your Psychology Today profile. So I used that to make that for her. I remember, actually I was on a run when you talked about how to talk to clients or potential clients about private pay and how that might work with insurance. I listened to that a few times and I even transcribed it afterwards. So now I think you offer that script to folks in your podcast.
[JOE]
Yes, we do. Well, actually the show notes now are all transcribed, so people can go to them on the website, but yes, look at you. That’s awesome.
[NATE]
So I’m the longtime listener, first time caller, but I think I didn’t really know it, but it was in my blood to do private practice for a long time. Then I got to have the first hand seat to my partner. She developed her private practice and she was working two days a week while I was doing the college counseling center work. Long story short burnout was really the reason why I couldn’t continue in college counseling and I even thought about maybe I’d do part-time there, part-time in private practice. But I started my private practice a year and a half before I left. So two and a half years ago, I’m a year into a full-time private practice. But it has been a hard thing to do, but relatively easy with all the help that I’ve been able to find through Practice of the Practice and other resources. So we can dive more into my story and what might be helpful, but that’s a nutshell version.
[JOE]
I think sometimes people hear all right, he’s two plus years in, they see the end result. Maybe we’ll talk numbers at some point, but take us through, especially like the early, maybe first six months to a year, you’re still working your full-time job. I feel like people just, it’s interesting how it can be very easy, but it can also be very hard because, especially if you don’t have access to like, how do you do these things? You can get stuck on one thing. I remember, I forgot what it was in WordPress when I was building my first website, because of course I wanted to save money and I spent days trying to figure this out and there was just like one button I hadn’t clicked and it just took forever. What are some of the things that were foundational things that you got stuck on or how’d you work through it, how’d you think through different parts of starting your practice? Take us through those early days.
[NATE]
Well, yes, there’s plenty of things like what you were talking about, where I get stuck with a program or building the website or some sort of logistical thing. One of the biggest things for me was the emotional stuckness because I was burning out in my job. So it just felt so incompatible. How do I build this private practice on the side? I’m working even more and I’m going to be burning out even more but then the end goal is hopefully I’ll be able to transition and be able to recover and heal from that burnout, which I knew in theory I could do that, but in practice it was, I think emotionally it was very counterintuitive to be marketing myself, trying to build up evening clients when I was so burned out anyways. So I think the unfortunate thing is it took me a lot longer because I was so slow and dragging my feet . But I think that was the biggest stuckness piece for me.
[JOE]
When you say emotional stuckness, dig into that a little bit more for us, because I hear that so often where people, maybe it’s imposter syndrome or it’s being paralyzed by perfection What were the things that for you were more that emotional stuckness?
[NATE]
Yes, I think the pain that would come up with picturing my schedule, like, oh, I’m working eight to five every day. Then, oh, if I see three clients at night and we have four children ages two to nine years old, so I mean, even that was painful to not be there for the kids. But then it just felt so right that I knew the end goal, as soon as I could transition things would open up and it definitely did, but I think it was that short term sprint that I didn’t do as much of a sprint as I wish I would have. But that’s what was really painful for me, is the burden I think of it all.
[JOE]
How did you make sure that that sprint didn’t become a long-term habit? Because I think you can think through, okay, this is a phase of life where I’m launching a practice, I’ve got my full-time job, your partner has a practice going, like, things are just crazy and you have little kids and it’s like, okay, this is a chapter. It’s not the book. How did you make sure that you just didn’t become a workaholic?
[NATE]
For me, a big thing was I’ve almost specialized in burnout now so I think I understand it well, and that was really helpful. I think it was listening to people on your show or seeing other people that have gone through this and being able to trust that this is a short term thing. Then at that point, I think it was just embracing the craziness of it that, yes, I’ll put my head down and go. What was like an 18 month journey from when I started my private practice to when I finally transitioned, I mean, that was my journey. I wouldn’t go back and change it, but with the knowledge I have now and seeing it in hindsight, it’d be like, oh, if I could have shortened that to 12 months or six months, that would’ve been so much better for me than being stuck so long in that
[JOE]
Now, fast forward a little bit, when did you start considering leaving that college job? Because I know for me, I also worked at a community college. They had great pension, great healthcare. I mean the wages were adequate compared to private practice, but compared to any other full-time job as a therapist, it was top tier. So when you say it was your dream job, I mean, I got paid to sail all summer. I started this therapeutic sailing program where I took at-risk kids sailing and then at-risk college students sailing. So literally from June 15th until September 10th, I was on a sailboat all summer long. So pretty awesome gig getting paid what, $60,000 a year? How did you, what helped you decide? What numbers did you look at? How did you think through all of the decision to leave at that point?
[NATE]
I mean, it really was a golden hand cuff job and there’s so many things I loved about it and yes having the summers off and I could go down the list of why that really was the dream job. But the money side of things, then I heard you talk about this too, you would just run the numbers over and over again. I would do that too, because it was scary. Like if I do transition to private practice, how will I pay for health insurance and what will taxes really be like?

I could calculate based on my spouse’s income and what she was seeing with private pay clients but what would that really look like? And what if the clients didn’t really come? So for me, and I think the first like four months or so that I had the private practice, there were zero people that were coming, even though I was doing a lot of the things that were correct. But then it when it finally started to happen, when I got that first client and then the next client, and then, I think I had like three or four clients and then I started a group and then I started another group and then a summer hit, which things slowed down because we specialize in college students but it still was going strong.

So then I was able to really see the numbers and really understand what taxes were like. Then there was just this switch all of a sudden where it was, whoa, I have eight clients every week. I’m doing two groups. I am making more now with the private practice than my full-time college counseling job. So then it was a whoa, this slow growth all of a sudden, the sharp curve upward and like, I need to transition now. It was also exhilarating.
[JOE]
It’s like a opportunity cost of like the longer you stay at the college, the more you’re not growing this business that’s thriving with maybe few hours per week mm-hmm
[NATE]
I actually did do the next, like 30 years of numbers if I were to stay at the college counseling, what the average raise might be. If I were to ask for a raise or move into administration versus what it would probably be in private practice conservatively, and it’s just ridiculous, the discrepancy. It could be so much more.
[JOE]
I remember running those numbers in regards to a Ph.D. because I think the Ph.D. was going to take five years for me. At that time didn’t even think about going into private practice, but so I think I was working at CMH at the time making say 40 grand a year. Then I said, okay, so imagine for five years, I don’t make that money. Then I’m X number of the hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. So say I make 10 grand more a year at CMH. I think I was going to be 52 when the two lines crossed each other where it would be worth it if I was just working at CMH to get a Ph.D.

So even though I applied for a Ph.D. program, I didn’t get in and I was actually really happy that I didn’t get in and was like, okay, I didn’t get into one. I’m not going to pursue this. Those of you like yourself, they have a Ph.D. I think it’s awesome that you went that route and got it done. You’re a specialist, but yes. So many times we don’t even think through any of our numbers in that way. What other numbers did you look at that helped you make that decision to leave? Or was that pretty much the primary one right there?
[NATE]
I mean, I had the full spreadsheets and I’ve tried to understand taxes and what health insurance would be. So I would work through it. So to me it was that overall context, but it really was just a switch in a couple months where all of a sudden, I mean, I’d have to go back and look at the numbers. But I think myself, I was pulling in like six to $7,000 a month to just in private practice with the groups I was doing and a few individual clients. Then it jumped up to like $13,000 a month I was pulling in. So it was just an easy switch at that point. I had a colleague that left and gave seven months notice and I was planning on —
[JOE]
Seven months’ notice? Whoa.
[NATE]
I know, I know. There were three of us total, three clinicians plus our director, but she didn’t do much clinical work. Then we had three practicum students and he left and we, I was planning on doing the same thing the next year, but we never filled his position. I actually wrote my, started writing my letter of resignation. It was October, it was a Wednesday morning and then in that staff meeting my other colleagues, so the other person announced that she was leaving. So it was just going to be me. I had about five minutes of, oh my goodness. I need to stay here and hold this whole ship together. But then I realized, no, I mean, this is my time too. I got to jump ship as well. So I then sent my letter of resignation in.

I was actually really grateful for that push because that helped me. I was ready for a few months before that, but just nervous. I didn’t talk to my boss as much as I think you did, Joe, when you were in that position. I wish I would’ve, but I was preparing, oh, I’m going to, maybe in November say that I’m leaving in June. But it turned out that no, in October I said that I’m leaving in December and it was exhilarating and I was giddy when I finally did it. Since then, I’ve actually challenged a few of the therapists that I work with, just write your letter of resignation. You don’t have to send it in until you’re ready, but just write it. Even that emotional labor of putting it down on paper and visualizing what that might be, I think is really helpful to be making progress towards that eventual goal.
[JOE]
I love that idea of writing your letter of resignation. I think that’s awesome. It’s similar to when Jim Carrey wrote himself a check for a million dollars at the beginning of his career, just that idea of that —
[NATE]
I didn’t know that.
[JOE]
Yes. I think it was Oprah who was interviewing him right at the peak of his career. He had told this story about how he wrote himself a check for a million dollars and just that idea of yes, like how could that feel? It was exhilarating for me. I remember when I went into my boss’s office, Lisa and I had an awesome relationship. She had been my supervisor when I was a foster care supervisor. We had both applied for her director position and if anyone hadn’t got it or anyone had got it other than me, she would be the one I would’ve wanted.

Actually, I think if I had got that position, I wouldn’t have started Practice of the Practice. I wouldn’t have left the college. It would’ve been too much of a salary jump for that time to do anything else and you would work 50 hours a week. So she and I had this relationship and I remember sitting down with her and saying, so I had been part-time during my youngest family medical leave act. So probably six months of working 20 hours a week I just said to her, “I feel like I want to at least give you the respect of I can keep working at 20 hours a week, but I need to have my full-time salary or April 1st will be my last day.” She just laughed. She’s like, “You know I can’t do that, but I love that you even made a proposal.” But no, it totally exhilarating to be like, oh my gosh, I’m leaving in like three weeks. This is amazing.
[NATE]
Yes, on such a threshold to cross.
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[JOE]
Well, take us through then that first like year, year and a half after you left your full-time job and what was helpful during that phase? Because before you had the safety net of some income coming in through that full-time job and all sorts of other things, what were the ups and downs of that time? What were maybe helpful lessons or things that helped support you during that time?
[NATE]
Well, I think I was fortunate enough that things were really good when I left and financially things were great and so much better than they were even a month or two before. So I didn’t face that pressure that I think a lot of people can that, oh no, the clients aren’t coming. Oh no, the money might not be there. It was just booming and working really well. My main goal was, and still is recovering from burnout. So I still didn’t want to grow too fast. So that’s been one of the big struggles is how do I, because it can be so easy to just get sucked into, oh yes if I do this and if I do that, if I build this part of the business, if I were to create this program or do this thing and that’s part of my personality, I like doing that.

But it’s been a growth edge to say, no, I just need to really slow down and really try to recover and heal. I think it does maybe paint a rose colored picture because my experience when I finally made the transition was wonderful. Things really worked out well. But I think for a lot of people that might not be the case. One of the things that was fascinating when you were talking about, I think it was your seven year old daughter and she’s wanting to learn how to ski.
[JOE]
Yes.
[NATE]
But then also doesn’t want to learn how to ski or?
[JOE]
Yes. Like whenever it’s like, “Hey, let’s go skiing,” she’s like, “No, I don’t want to go skiing.” It’s like, well, but you want to ski and the way you ski is your ski.
[NATE]
So there’s some polarized tensions inside of her, it seems like, that there’s something really excited about skiing. She wants to do that, but then also something’s maybe too big, too scary, too much. So I think that’s the pull that I’ve had all along and that’s what I’m still struggling with, is I don’t want to go too fast. I don’t want to bite up more than I can chew. But then that also can leave me more stuck and not progressing, not growing, not crossing the next threshold.
[JOE]
So can I dig into that a little bit? I know that we’re doing an interview, but can we do a little consulting around that?
[NATE]
Sure.
[JOE]
Is it your, because you said a few things there. You said like, I don’t want to grow too fast because I don’t want to bite off more than I can chew. So is the overwhelm, burnout, the big reason that you think that you shouldn’t grow so fast or what would you say is the primary value you hold that’s being challenged by the idea of growing big?
[NATE]
Yes, I think it’s freedom that the perceived, well the fear that I might lose that freedom. If things were to grow too quickly, then I’d be too stretched, too burdened, have too much on my plate.
[JOE]
So what would you have, what hard boundaries would you have to put into your schedule to make sure that you maintained the freedom that you have or pretty close to the freedom you have now?
[NATE]
Well, and I’ve really appreciated the way that I’ve heard you talk about this. Then of course in your book with the hard boundaries and the soft boundaries. So one thing that I have done is Monday, Wednesday, Friday are the days for individual clients and Tuesday, Thursday is off. That’s been a pretty hard boundary that I’ve been able to keep, and I think looking at this next year, I’m wanting to even reduce some of those individual client hours and to maybe move down to two and a half days or maybe to two days a week.
[JOE]
I think at least what I see is that sometimes when people are like, I don’t want to grow too fast that actually the growing too fast helps them live even more independence. Now of course, there’s ways that people can do it in a really crappy way and they just are working 60 hours. You and I aren’t wanting that, but to say, okay, what would growing too fast be? It would be if I got 30 referrals in a week because I had done all this networking. Well, you’re a smart enough guy that if you saw that trend going upward, you’d be like, I need to do something here rather than just have a waiting list. I need to double my prices. I need to hire a 1099 or two. I need to, whatever.

So I would actually challenge you to say whatever your goal is that you think feels reasonable, double that for 2022, and then realize that you’re smart enough that even if you’re flying by the seat of your pants for a little bit, you’re still probably gliding. You’re not just going to crash. And then you’re going to have that income to put into systems, to hire people that will do all that stuff that you just don’t want to do.
[NATE]
Exactly. And Joe, I love that, it’s hard to tell if you’re talking about skiing or running a private practice, even metaphors you’re using, “not going to crash, you’re going to glide.’
[JOE]
Yes, it’s true. It’s the same thing.
[NATE]
I’m scared of crashing or going too fast but I think in reality, the more I get on the slopes, the more it’ll just be fun. I mean, that’s been my journey so far, so mentally, I’m not concerned. I think it’s just the emotions that come up that can, yes, it can block me
[JOE]
Well, I think that for me, I don’t ever want to stay in my comfort zone for a long period of time. So even just, actually as someone I was interviewing earlier today they have a really popular podcast that also they almost always record in person. Then that’s like part of their YouTube channel and they’re out in LA and I mean that could open up a crazy amount of doors. So even to just say, yes, I would love to do that. Then I’m going to have to sort out. I mean, I’m a single dad. I got to sort out childcare. I got to figure out flying to LA and Covid and all those things.

But to just say, I don’t know where this door’s going to go, but going on this podcast and in person is probably going to be really good. It may also throw a bunch of stuff in my way that makes things more scattered or difficult for my team . But then that also shows us our weak points where like, oh, we need to have, maybe Jess needs to have an assistant to her as well. She’s my assistant, but maybe she needs an assistant or maybe we have bitten off more than we can chew, but then it really exposes those leaks within the wall by putting that extra pressure on it.
[NATE]
Totally, yes. Well, and as you’re talking about that, I’m just thinking too, like this is my first podcast and there is my vision all along of what I would be like on a podcast and now I’m facing the reality of what I’m actually like. There’s some discrepancy. I mean, I think I’m doing fine, but yes, I’m on the [crosstalk]
[JOE]
I think that you’ve told your story and it’s also like there’s so much that’s unfolding in it and that’s great. So when you think about maybe the next two or three years, how do you think through your private practice, what you want to do with it, where to put your time into it and like where to put your energy?
[NATE]
So we just hired our second clinician, so we have a group practice now, my partner and I, and now two clinicians. I have some pretty set goals for what I want the group practice be and that’s the main push for this year. So I want to have three clinicians that are seeing about 20 full pay clients a week. That’s the main push. Then after that, I mean, I have a lot of dreams, a lot of fantasies. But I mean a podcast is one of them. So I’m glad I’m pushing myself to actually get on podcasts and start to figure that out. Then the other thing that is really thriving that I’m having a lot of fun with is I do run online process oriented training groups for therapists, and there’s a lot of people that reach out wanting to do those.
[NATE]
So I just, I run three of those myself, and then I just partnered with someone we’re going to co-lead the fourth one. Her name is Sophia Aguire and she’s a wonderful clinician. Then we’ve just started talking about, well, what are we going to do next because people just keep reaching out and wanting to work with us. So we’re figuring out how we want to build that training program. So yes, the group practice is the main goal, but then I have some other fun things that we’ll see what really takes off.
[JOE]
Oh, that’s so awesome. So awesome. I think that finding those things that you can have multiple streams of income and multiple streams of like where you’re spending your time. So even if the process oriented groups are primarily based on you showing up, I’m sure there’s also the opportunities for e-courses or for automated newsletter or add-ons for people too, like individual consulting. So I think that’s just so awesome that you’re continuing to push into that area. I know that you’re a part of Killin’It Camp and got a great reception there. So if people are interested in those process oriented groups where can they find out more about that?
[NATE]
So just to my website, which is grouptherapycentral.com. You can just Google Group Therapy Central, or even if you Google, I think online groups for therapists, it’s usually the first one that shows up. I do, but there’s also a list of, I think it’s like 18, now it’s up to 18 colleagues that run similar groups. So you can look at mine and see if that’s a fit. If it’s not, I have the listing with descriptions of many other people that do these kinds of groups for therapists.
[JOE]
That’s so awesome. Well, Nate, the last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?
[NATE]
Well, I knew you were going to ask me this and I had probably six or seven different options that I would choose from, but I think what I’ll do for this is just that theme that’s come up in this podcast, what came to my mind is we were talking and you were talking about your seven year old is a clinician or a supervisor of mine in grad school, he talked about the example of a kid that drops their Binky outside the crib and how devastating that can be. It’s like the end of the world almost. It’s overwhelming. But then when the parent walks in and sees what’s going on, usually the reaction is, well that’s not that big of a deal. It’s fine. You’re fine. You can pick up the binking, give it back to the kid.

Both of those realities are true. They coexist together and it’s not that the parent is right and the kid is wrong or the kid is right and the parent is wrong, but they both are right. So I think that’s, what’s, that tension is something that I experience a lot. For any person, I don’t know that I can talk to every therapist in the world, but any therapist that has maybe a similar process to mine or feels maybe stuck or knows that they want to do private practice, but haven’t yet been able to take the steps to do it, I think there’s a part of me that wants to really empathize and say, I get it. I see how overwhelming that is. That can feel so big. And it is. It is a really big deal to consider stepping into private practice and at the same time, and especially in hindsight, it’s also true that it is not that big of a deal.

It is totally doable. If you’re worried about the taxes or talking to your boss or whatever it might be, it’s not that big of a deal. I mean, I’m far enough down the slope to continue that analogy to recognize it is not that big of a deal. I can do this. So I think that would be the message I’d want to send to folks that are still scared to get out on the slope; just go for it. I think I like you, Joe, I trust you and so I would say consider working with Joe doing the Next Level Practice. Right now I’m in Group Practice Launch, which is wonderful. So if you’re looking for a specific step, that would be one that I think would be a pretty easy, good one to do. Just sign up. If it ends up not being a good fit then whatever but for me, at least, and I think for a lot of people, it really hit the spot.
[JOE]
Aw, thank you so much for sharing that. Nate, if people want to continue to connect with you, what are the best places for them to connect with you?
[NATE]
So I think, like I mentioned, my website grouptherapy,entral.com is the best place. There’s a contact form there. I might have my email on there, but you can see on the front page, any things that I’m up to. I try to keep that up to date with the conferences that I’m doing or any group openings that I have or any of the retreats or other things that I do for burnout for therapists. So grouptherapycentral.com.
[JOE]
Oh, that’s so awesome. Well, Nate, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.
[NATE]
Thank you, Joe. This has been fun.
[JOE]
I love how much Nate talked about how this is easy. Now it sometimes doesn’t feel easy. It sometimes feels like such a big challenge to launch a private practice, leave your full-time job, all those things, but people have done it. If you are interested in Next Level Practice, which Nate mentioned there you can head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite, and that’s where you can get your invitation. The next time that opens up, we only open it a couple times a year, you can get invited on into that. We have some other things coming up as well. We have the Faith in Practice Conference that is going to be Thursday, April 21st until Sunday, April 24th. That is on Jekyll island. It’s about an hour away from Jacksonville.

It’s an amazing conference. Whitney Owens is planning it all. She has the Faith in Practice podcast and Practice of the Practice is supporting this. We have some amazing sponsors like Productive Therapists, Simplified SEO Consulting, Green Oak Accounting, some amazing sponsors of that. So if you’re interested head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/faithinpracticeconference. You can read all the details there and see all of the speakers that we are going to have.

Also, we are so excited about our new sponsor. They’re not new at this point. They’re new in 2022, but our friends at Noble believe in using technology to enhance, not replace human connection. With Noble, your clients will gain access to between session support through their automated therapist-created roadmaps. I think that’s so important that they are therapist created. They also have assessments to track progress and in-app messaging. This is what I wish I had had when I owned my private practice because you can know how your clients are feeling and what areas they may need more focus, and you can tailor your one on one sessions to their needs more effectively. You can learn more and join for free over at www.noble.health/joe. Again, that’s noble.health/joe.

Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing day. I’ll talk to you soon.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for that intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers, or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.