[JOE SANOK] We brought together all of our checklists, videos, and other free things in one spot, so you don’t have to opt in all over the place just to get another checklist. We’ve put it all together over at pillarsofpractice.com. Whether you’re just getting started or have an established group therapy practice, we have a free e-course for you. As well, we have eight-minute experts, which are short eight-minute videos around specific topics completely free. So if you want to take your practice to the next level, head on over to pillarsofpractice.com to get access to our free e-courses. Again, that’s pillarsofpractice.com to get all of those free e-courses. This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session 823. Awesome. Welcome, everybody. Glad you’re here today. Today we’re talking about multiple streams of income through being on a podcast and I’m so excited about introducing you to my friend Melanie Benson. I’ve known Melanie for a number of years. Melanie is an authority brand amplifier for expert entrepreneurs, which is why she’s here with us today because for me, one of the big things that she is just an expert in is taking people that have a lot of education that don’t know how to amplify that into things that people would buy or to amplify that into communities or different ways. She has a proven track record of accelerating results for her clients, and it’s not uncommon to see three to five times revenue growth. She also has her Amplify Your Success podcast, which if you aren’t listening to that, you’ve got to listen to. Melanie, welcome to the, I’m used to saying Practice of the Practice Podcast, but welcome to our webinar today, [MELANIE BENSON] Thanks for having me, Joe. It’s really, I love talking about this subject and I love I’m a huge fan of transformation, so what a great opportunity to help some people amplify their expertise. [JOE] Well, let’s just go over what we’re going to cover. This is going to be a very informal conversation, but also, Melanie, I know that you have so many different directions we can go. We’ll try to keep it focused. So we’re going to talk about the type of income outside of counseling that you can go after and how to use your skills in a much larger way. We’re going to discuss positioning yourself as an expert and what do podcasters and potential clients want to hear, what do they want to see and also how to really use podcasts to amplify your message in regards to what’s working now in the podcasting world. So this is highly conversational. Melanie, why don’t we just start with when it comes to expert entrepreneurs, which I love how you use that term, expert entrepreneurs, talk a little bit about these folks that are counselors, therapists, coaches, and maybe the untapped potential that they have that they don’t even realize. [MELANIE] Yes, great question. I started, just a little background, I started my business 22 years ago. I had been trained as a coach and what I learned very quickly is a lot of the people needed what I do in the world, but they weren’t walking around looking for a coach. Like in their mind they were thinking, oh, I need to hire a coach today. I think that’s a little different with therapists, because a lot of times I think it’s a much more well-known field and I think some people are saying, okay, I need to go find a therapist. But what often happens is they don’t know who to hire and they don’t hire or engage the right person for what they really need and I think that’s where this positioning of our expertise comes in. I’ve worked with so many people over the years, Joe, people would say, well, like, I just do what most therapists do. How do I have expertise? Or, I’m a coach, like, I don’t know, what do I do that’s unique? I think we all have a superpower. We all have a unique way in which we do something that if we lean into that and we capture that and showcase that through these amplified tips that I share with my community and I’ll share today, then we have the ability to attract the right clients at the right price point and that’s a really key here, like to be able to charge maybe a premium rate or to leverage our time and energy more effectively and get them better results. So that’s where I see expert positioning coming in. Then if I have a moment like, just a second piece that comes through here, as we start to grow and scale the reach of our message, we’re going to very quickly recognize we’re not the only one with that message. There is a sea of information out there, especially in the online world and so one of the things I discovered along the way was when we learn how to stand out in a very crowded market, then it is so much easier to make client attraction work. [JOE] I think about the average therapist and they’re doing such great work in individual sessions. They may have a group practice going, but then there’s this fear of jumping state lines. So I just want to like speak to that right at the beginning because when you’re creating e-courses, when you’re creating things that help people doing psychoeducation sure position because of your license, but it’s not going to be the same rules as if you’re just all of a sudden doing counseling across state lines. So as we talk about multiple streams of income, all of you that are here today, I want you to think about, imagine your skillset was going to go really big and go out across the United States. That’s what we’re talking about today beyond just getting more counseling clients. So Melanie, when you think about what you see expert entrepreneurs create in regards to actual products, what products are they creating just to give people that maybe aren’t in this world just an understanding of the potential of taking their skillset and applying it in a new way? [MELANIE] Yes, I mean I think it’s like an unlimited opportunity base. There is so many different ways that we can serve our community. I’m a fan of the one to many model as well. As a matter of fact, when I transitioned from one to one early on in my career and I went one too many, that’s when my revenue started accelerating and my impact really grew because I’m driven by impact first. One of the things that I think is worth looking at is do you have like some body of work that if we could capture it or you could like package it either through a digital program, so digital would be, it’s on-demand and people can buy it at any time. Like, I have several digital programs I created many years ago that people still buy today, which is another nice thing, is you create it once and then sell it over and over and over again. A hybrid program, which is absolutely my favorite right now, so there’s some digital on-demand version where let’s say, okay, I teach the same thing over and over and over again, like, can I just get that recorded so I don’t have to keep recreating the wheel and then you deliver coaching or support or implementation guidance or comradery and accountability around that model. Then I’m a fan of like high ticket, like VIP or high ticket, done with you done for you in really custom integration work. So those are the three things that I tend to focus on. I don’t know, Joe, like where do you see people really leaning into right now? [JOE] Well, I think what you just said about creating some sort of course that you’re doing over and over I just accidentally logged into Teachable like an hour ago because I was trying to log into this thing and said, use Teachable to log in and I saw our numbers and realized there was a course that I made three years ago that last month just sold like a thousand dollars worth of that course. It’s like, I literally did nothing except for a few years ago and people just find it, so you should just say that there’s these ways that you can create things. I think that I’m seeing therapists really niche into particular areas when they’re like, I’m good at helping people that are in the middle of a transformation or a transition. Like that’s not enough and so like to be able to really find specific things that you’re going to help people with like. I just saw Anna came in and she’s starting this thing called Life Plot Twist. It’s like, that’s a cool name that really helps people understand, okay, I’m building something as a therapist outside of what I’m typically doing. So it is cool to see those things. For me, and tell me what you think about this, oftentimes, for the average therapist, they’re highly educated, they have a master’s degree, doctorate, they’ve done their thesis or their dissertation, so creating content and creating programs isn’t the difficult part. So oftentimes they’ll create this beautiful e-course and then they won’t have an audience for it, and then they try to squeeze an audience into it whereas I tend to teach you build an audience first and then then the audience will tell you how do you conceptualize when you make the product versus when you focus on the audience. [MELANIE] So good. I’m so glad we’re going to talk about this. Again, let’s just go back 22 years. I did everything wrong. Let me just say it straight out, I did it all backwards, all upside down, all most time sucking way in the beginning because I didn’t know what I know now, which is exactly what just said. We like birth these things because we know how powerful they are for us or we’ve had an experience with a client and you’re like, oh my gosh, this is brilliant. I know this is going to make a great impact. In the world of online marketing, we need our client base, our audience base to tell us what they want from us and that’s a whole process in itself. I don’t think we’re deep diving into that today, but what I found is there’s a trifecta that I focus my clients on and that is, before you create anything, find the intersection of your superpower because if you’re not in your superpower, let’s just face it, you’re not going to want to do it for very long. You’re going to get burned out. You’re going to resent this thing that you’ve built. So you’ve got to find the intersection of your superpower, what your clients are yearning for and searching for. That means you really need to know not just who your clients are, but who do you really want to work with, and then what is the thing they’re looking for and are willing to invest in. So here’s the really tricky part, Joe, is just because they say, I want this doesn’t mean when you build it and you put it out there, they’re going to buy it. This is where positioning and messaging and packaging and pricing really comes in. That to me means we start to have to be detectives and really learn a little bit more about what they will buy before we actually spend all the time and money to produce something. So I find that trifecta really helpful is superpower, what are they yearning for, searching for, what are they in pain over and what are they going to actually invest money in as a solution? Getting that trifecta really solid, that’s where the great growth comes from. [JOE] Well, let’s focus on that audience building, getting to know an audience because to me, like we’re saying the same thing, you got to have those people there to say, yes, here’s what I want and what I’m going to actually buy instead of just guessing. Where should, so we’ve got a bunch of therapists, counselors, coaches here hanging out. Most of them are probably pretty green to be on podcasts or at least going on to podcasts so as to make money or to grow something beyond their practice. Where would you, what are the top like three startup tips you would have to first get going on being interviewed on other people’s podcasts, not starting their own podcasts on other people’s podcasts. [MELANIE] I call it being a guest expert just to help with that confusing thing where it’s like, am I on the podcast, am I the podcast or am I on someone else’s podcast? So let me just take a step back and say why podcasts are such a valuable platform right now. I believe in both sides of the mic, but we’re going to focus on being a guest today. When I started my business and I was again, like so green, I didn’t know what to do, I very quickly realized when I shared my message, and I’m sure like, if you’re here today, you probably have a message, there is something that you know so deeply inside of you when you talk from that place and you share that message, your magnet for clients probably like turns on really fast. Like, does anybody resonate with that, just give me a little like life. I know, and when I would stand on a stage and I would share that message, I would’ve a line of clients and I was like, hmm. When we are in our message, we are in our most authentic energetic like vibration. We just exude this confidence and clarity and it’s really attractive. I know a lot of coaches and therapists and healers and transformational people, trying to recreate that in other forms of content is harder, so when podcasts started emerging about 10 or 12 years ago, I saw a perfect way to tap back into sharing message authentically. That’s why I think podcasts are so hot. Plus there’s, Joe, I don’t know if you even know these latest statistics, but there’s like 4 million podcasts. That means there’s a lot of people super hungry for great content. They’re like constantly having to feed their own content machine. Now podcasts, with this growth being really hot means everybody else is figuring out, oh, I can share my message on podcasts. There’s like a bazillion podcast booking services now. There’s people who are telling you, yes, go get on podcasts. So what I think has to happen to land these great podcasts, and I know this because I’m getting about a hundred pitches a week to be on my show right now, is you have to be able to really capture the attention of the host in your pitch or in your request. However you’re making that request with a great topic, I call it a magnetic topic. So I teach a program called Guest Expert System because I found a lot of people really struggle with these steps that I’m going to share. The number one thing that people always tell me when they come into the program is, I don’t know what to name my talk to make it magnetic. That’s because as coaches or therapists or whatever we think in terms of what we deliver, and it’s sometimes a little bit more difficult to shift our brain power to focus on what is the outcome the audience is hearing, what is the takeaway the audience needs to know about? So I started to teach people how to shift the way they message or they create their magnetic topic so that from the moment that host reads the pitch, they’re like, oh, snap, that’s hot, I want that on my show. I haven’t heard anybody talk about it or the way that person is positioning this talk is really going to be exciting for my audience when they’re scrolling through their device looking for what episode to listen to. That one’s going to stand out and they want that. So there’s a lot of nuances to that, Joe, and I just want to take a breath here and see, I can tell a couple more things, but I want to check in and see if there’s anything you want to add to that. [JOE] No, I think that’s great. So would you say, how do you, let’s go, you have the email, but how do you find the best podcast to be on online? [MELANIE] Yes, so there’s a couple, and this is probably the most common question I get asked is like, there’s, okay, so, how do I figure out the podcasts and how do I find them? About nine years ago, I started to realize that my friends who have a lot of similarities in the audiences we serve, were sharing the episodes they’re being featured on in social media. I’d be like, oh, I’m curious, okay, what are they doing? So I would then go look at them like, man, that’s a great podcast. I think I’ll reach out to them. Fastest way to get on a podcast is look at where your peers, your competition, your colleagues are being featured, and do little research and see, does that podcast feel aligned with me, my message, my audience, and pitch them. That’s the one of the super-fast routes. I think the other one, which may or may not fit for what you all are doing right now is when you have your own podcast, this podcast swap concept is so gold. I know a lot of people that have a podcast just to open the door to some collaboration and co-created strategic support. Then that’s really as far as it goes for them, they were just looking for a way to give value. So the podcast swap is really an easy one. Let’s say, let me give one more tip her — [JOE] I want to jump in there real quick. As a podcaster, I know if I have another podcaster on, it’s going to be a good episode because I know Melanie, when you were on mine or I was on yours, we can just, we can talk, we’re used to being concise and just, we know how the podcasting world is. So I do think that if I see someone’s a podcaster and it fits, it’s like, oh yes, then absolutely let’s do a podcast swap. [MELANIE] I’m so glad you said that because this brings up something about this third tip that’s super important. I’ll keep it in the short version because I could get a little, this is my soapbox moment. The third one is your blind pitching somebody you don’t know. One of the things I do for my clients is I keep a running list of podcasts that I think are great podcasts, I think the host does a great job of showcasing their talent and their experts, they know how to market their show, and I think it would be great visibility for my clients. So there’s like 200 on there. So I always tell people, don’t just blind pitch this, the show host. Before you do anything, pay attention to the type of guests they’re having on, follow them on social media, start to warm up some energy there, and then do this. When you reach out to them make sure that you have content on your social that showcases your message if you do not already have a bunch of podcasts that you’ve been sharing on your social platform. Why is this important? Because we all know that if you do not have a podcast and you don’t already have like a track record as a guest expert, you may or may not have all your show stoppers and sound bites and juicy stories and stuff like that worked out and you may be what I call a rambling Rose. So one of the 17 mistakes often people are making that’s not getting them leads and clients from podcast guesting is they ramble through their content. They don’t know how to breath, they don’t know how to enunciate, they don’t know how to like tell a story that weaves people through this I don’t want to say it’s not necessarily about a hypnotic trance, but it’s like about bonding, like you’re bonding with your audience and connecting with them. What I have found is so many people tell these really long stories that have zero to do with anything that’s the subject of the talk and they get lost. I don’t know, do you guys ever find that where you feel like you get a little lost, like, ah, what was I going to say? This just comes from practice and learning how to weave sound bites and talking points together. It’s a muscle that we build. We can learn it. I guess what I teach a lot about this because I’ve been speaking for 40 years now, 35 years, and it’s a muscle that we build over time, but it’s not something that you might like feel confident with until you learn how to do it a little bit better. [BRIGHTER VISION] It’s Brighter Vision’s biggest sale of the season. With the holiday season in full swing and the new year right around the corner now is the perfect opportunity to think critically about your future marketing initiatives and consider what improvements can be made to ensure you’re attracting the clients you need to grow your practice. If you find yourself in need of a professional website that’s properly optimized to rank well in online searches and targeted to speak to your ideal client, Brighter Vision, would love to help and there’s never been a better time. Sign up for a new website during their Cyber Monday sale and get $20 a month off your first year of new website services on our Grow or Flourish plans, plus pay no set of fees, that’s $340 in savings off a new website for your private practice. But hurry, this discount will only last until 11:59 PM on Monday, November 30th. If you’re ready to get started or just want to learn more about how Brighter Vision can help you grow your practice, head on over to brightervision.com/joe. Again, that’s brightervision.com/joe. [JOE SANOK] What are some of the maybe stories or examples or like, I like to think of it like a playlist of things that you can draw from that you would say every single guest needs to have, these stories or these examples that they can pull from if they’re going to be a guest? [MELANIE] I love this question. Nobody’s ever asked me this question and I love it, Joe. Okay, so first story is your origin story. Okay, so this is one of the stories I think is really helpful. I was working with a client recently, she was like, why is this important? I’m like, you ran an eight-figure business. Your audience needs to know that based on the work you’re doing now you have this expertise. It does not have to sound, you’re not like showcasing jets and like living the life on some yacht. We’re talking about how you went from running an eight-figure business to doing the transformation work you do right now. I said, that will give people confidence. So an origin story is really, really important. The second thing is a case study story. You don’t want these to be awkward stories. You want to be able to weave them really confidently into a talking point. Like, sometimes I’ll share about a client of mine that when he started to work with me, he wanted to double his rates. He thought he was going to launch a guest, some program or some a digital training or something but I literally showed him how to raise his rates and I doubled his rates and his clients were paying it eagerly. So I have a story that I’ll tell around a client situation for almost every teaching point I have. I won’t use them all, but I’ll pick one on the fly that feels appropriate. Then the third story is a metaphorical story. Now not everybody’s going to feel confident with metaphorical stories, but it’s really great if you have like a metaphor that you can bring through. Joe, I remember I used to teach about leverage and building teams and I got hired to come and do a lot of trainings and so I always used to tell this story about a metaphorical story about the difference between trying to drive 20 trains without hooking them together. You get on the train, you have to drive a little bit, you get off the train and you run back. Like, people were exhausted. Listening to the story, I’m like, well now if you just connect all the trains together and you drive the train, you get there faster all at once. So metaphorical stories paint a picture in people’s mind and you give them the physical emotional experience of your teaching point without getting into the nitty gritty of teaching your actual program or your concept. [JOE] Yes, and I think it’s great to have just stories that you can weave in whether you need them or not, and to know that every podcaster is going to ask you different questions. So if it’s always the same, you don’t want your interview with one person to always sound the same as somebody else. How, for people that are newer to going on to podcasts what would you suggest in regards to equipment, what would you suggest in regards to mindset, in regards to practicing? How do you get, how do you go from being brand new and terrible to pretty good? [MELANIE] I’ll just say, rusty, let’s just say you haven’t really polished your talk and this is a new thing. So we’re all a little like creaky and trying some stuff out. Honestly, the first thing I would suggest is don’t go for the big name podcast while you’re working your stuff out. I have a very strong belief that there are shows that are really hungry for great value that are going to be a little easier to work stuff out on. Unfortunately, like I got thrown to the wolves on one of the biggest name podcasts. One of my first episodes I ever was featured on was John Lee Dumas’s, Entrepreneur on Fire. That was before he was a big name, so he was still new and I was like, oh, I would’ve done so many things differently, I really had all that practice ahead of time. I think that’s a key thing, but so first of all, like, I think there’s value in creating your guesting system. Does anybody cringe when I say the word system? Or do you guys all like really see the value of a system? Because I know there’s a lot of people that, oh my God, a system is going to cramp my style, I’m not going to be able to flow with it and then some people are like a system, really thank you. So a system isn’t meant to be artificial, it’s meant to pull your unique stuff out and help you shape it so that you can tap it, like you’re going to build it into your automatic system. Your energy is just going to drop in and go, okay, this is when I do this, this is when I do this because and you have a confident path to follow. The system is everything from the talk you give and how to craft your bio and how to make sure your bio really showcases your expertise and your credibility all the way through what am I going to say as an invitation from that interview? Do I have a really clear path to follow from the talk to the whatever, like that next step is that I’m going to lay out for them? Just having all of that ready in advance and clear, your host is going to ask you what are your talking points? Some hosts will say, do you have some sample questions that you like to be asked? If you haven’t put all this together, you’re going to freeze and you’re not going to respond to the opportunity quickly and most hosts are going to fill that spot before you get around to figuring it out. Then the last I think some professional pieces is have a great photo. I can’t tell you how many people take a photo of, they have their spouse or their friend at dinner take a picture of them in the restaurant, and then they send that in as their headshot and guess what, when your host is splashing your face all over the internet, that’s the picture they’re using and it’s probably not a very good color. It’s probably not going to flatter you at all. I’ve had some pretty interesting photos shared and I was like, hmm. Like I had a woman with a bridge coming out of her head. I’m like, really? Did you not think that through? It was obviously, she was just out and about and took a picture, but take a couple minutes to have, even if you don’t do professional head shots, our cameras on our phones are so great these days. Get a really simple background. I’ll give you guys a quick little tool. Download the Snow app, S-N-O-W on your phone. That Snow app will make your skin shine and it’s just like you walked into a professional photo shoot and had a beautiful photo taken. Just take the time to get something clear. And last. You need a one sheet. A one sheet is the technical term for, in the industry term for all of your material in one place. I like to use Google Sheets. You don’t need a fancy pay somebody to make a beautiful one sheet unless you’re going to do paid speaking. Some people like it, but I don’t think you have to have it. I think simple, easy to copy, easy to update is really helpful. Then definitely, definitely get a great microphone and never ever, ever do an interview from your car, from the forest, from a restaurant, from the bathroom, or any other place that you don’t have great Wi-Fi and you don’t have your microphone. Because I will tell you, most hosts will not interview you. I have had people, Joe, it might blow your mind, but they literally called me from the middle of the forest. I was like, are you serious right now? [JOE] I have to tell you something really funny. So when we were on our road trip, Pat Flynn had one particular day that he could interview me and it was right before we were going to go into a national park where I would lose like internet service. So my Smart Passive Income podcast interview, I had my full professional mic in the front seat of the truck and like my Wi-Fi through the AT&T and I was in a Walmart parking lot. I didn’t follow your advice, but I did have the equipment to sound good on the road. [MELANIE] Well, hey you, that’s the thing. This guy was calling in from his phone with no headset, nothing. My point is be a really, I mean, there’s so many other things I teach about being a good guest expert from what you do after the episode airs to what you do to prepare for it. But just put your best foot forward. This is evergreen, it’s going to be around forever, and this was less than a hundred dollars, so there’s no reason you can’t have a great microphone. [JOE] Yes, the AT2020 was what I used for years. I think it was like $150 and finally I upgraded. But yes, you don’t need much. A couple questions are coming in that, let’s just jump to even though we are like, we’ll do more Q&A at the end for sure. Ashley just made a comment that I think would be great to hear your thoughts on. “I’ve been a guest on a lot of podcasts over the past few months, but I’ve never thought about making money for it. Now that I’m gaining the experience, honing my skills and finding that my time is more limited, thanks to my practice growth, I’m definitely interested in making the most out of being a podcast guest.” Just any tips that you would have for Ashley? [MELANIE] Well, I think first of all, the decision to increase your return on investment is such a wise and powerful decision. All transformation starts with one decision. Would we all agree with that? We know this from our clients. You have to make the decision to change before or the decision to get better results before they happen. So first of all, the monetization and the profit starts like by choosing the right podcasts. Not every podcast is a podcast that is meant to showcase you in a way that you’re going to get clients. I played the long game with podcasts, so yes, I’ve been really, really fortunate and I’ve built this muscle up enough over time that I know how to hold the right conversation and I will often get guests right after our podcast airs. I also know that I might get leads for a really long time. So you’re like dual tracking. It’s like, yes, we want to have a great way for somebody who’s like, boom, I need this, like they can fast action and jump right in and you want a way to capture those leads so that you’re nurturing a relationship with them. When they are ready, they’re going to say yes to you. So I’m looking at both of those. There’s a third thing that a lot of times people don’t even realize is sometimes the real thing for the buck, the big win is going to be what you cultivate with the host of that show. It’s like so many of us are just jumping in and out of these conversations. I feel like we leave a lot of money on the table because we don’t actually recognize the long-term profit opportunity with the host who may have other ways that you guys could collaborate and promote each other and share opportunities. One of my, sorry, let me back up, one of the women that, I guested it on her show three years ago, we kept, like, we enjoyed each other so much that I kept inviting her to co-host shows with me on Clubhouse when Clubhouse was the big thing, and then then we’re like, “Hey, we’re not going to do Clubhouse anymore. It’s not really where our jam is, but let’s do a video show.” So we started doing a video show and even just this week we just announced that we are doing a podcast together, so I’ll have a second podcast with her. It’s called Next Level Influence. Her name is Samantha Riley, who you may know, Joe. So these are the things that can emerge that can continue to feed opportunity for you for a very long time if you really like lean into what’s the other potential in this host that’s maybe dormant right now. [JOE] I want to go back to, you had said after the podcast have a way to follow up with people. Will you talk about opt-ins versus checklists versus email courses? What do you recommend in regards to the call-to-action be when someone is a guest on a podcast? [MELANIE] Well, I don’t think there’s one right call-to-action. I think it’s really about understanding where do you ultimately want them to go? So are you going to offer one-to-one services? Are you going to have a group program? Are you going to have a digital program? A lot of my clients who go through my program, they’re literally wanting to do like a book tour., so they’re doing a big which Joe did. Was that the year, last year? [JOE] Yes, that was so it was last October, my book was last October. So yes, in 200 podcast interviews in August and September. [MELANIE] So start with the end of mind, what do I want this podcast guesting to do? Don’t just do it because Joe and I are big fans. Do it because you’re clear what outcome you want from it. Then the call-to-action is going to be some form of a lead magnet. Now I will say I have one client who she’s like, I’m not doing the lead magnet thing, but her business is very different. She has $50,000 packages, she’s a transformational catalyst and she works with CEOs of high seven- and eight-figure businesses, so she’s a little bit different. But most of my clients, they’re either going to make their book their call-to-action or here’s my favorite right now, quizzes. Quizzes are, and like assessments, like find out what this thing you are or take this quiz and find out where you’re at and you’re whatever. I have a therapist client who I’ve been working with on and off for like eight years and when she pivoted her business and her brand, we designed a quiz because she specializes in trauma healing. We basically like what level trauma is holding you back thing. And so quizzes are very powerful because first of all, we concede them so powerfully inside the conversation. You can talk about the quiz and or the information it provides. Then people are like, how do I get this quiz? So some of it’s just like knowing how to, I talk about building a golden thread. The golden thread is you start with getting people interested through your talk title, then you build intrigue with your talking points and your showstoppers and your stories and you know the things that you’re talking about in the conversation. Part of that is just do they feel connected with you and your energy? Like is the dynamic you’re creating and the back and forth dance with the host compelling and interesting or is the guest really dry and monotone, that creates a different energy. Then the last step is investment, getting them invested in winning a next step with you is the call-to-action. So these should all seamlessly fit together. Do you guys also see what I just did? I just gave you a metaphorical story. I just gave you a metaphor, which is some, the way I just did that is what I call showstoppers? Who’s probably going to remember what was that thread thing that Melanie talked about on the webinar. It’s a mnemonic memory device that connects you and your expertise to the listener even if they can’t remember all the details. Just wanted to showcase that a little bit. They’re very powerful. [JOE] A great point. One question I see is that would you send your one sheet when you make your pitch to a podcast host? [MELANIE] Before I say that, like I can say, what a great deal, what about awesome opportunity? Okay, so let’s talk about the pitch a little bit. Every host likes to be pitched a little differently. I am not a fan of just doing a cookie cutter approach. Again, I mentioned earlier I made all the mistakes in the beginnings. So when I started 10 years ago pitching to be on podcasts, I was like, oh my God, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I had my assistant just like copying and pasting this template and sending it out and graciously some people said, yes. But I would not do that ever again. What I highly recommend that you do is that you look at the podcast and see do they share how to pitch them. One of the things that just annoys me so deeply is people just emailing us instead of actually following our very well documented pitch process online and guess what, like, it just gets deleted. I don’t really pay attention to them. I don’t want to pay my assistant $500 a month just to navigate all these pitches. We just ignore most of them. What I would recommend instead is if you are going to pitch them, follow their process and if they don’t have a process, then you could find their email and send a pitch. I do think it’s nice to attach your one sheet, but what I would highly recommend is that you really look enough at what they’re doing and saying, it looks to me like this podcast topic would be really great for your show but I have a couple others in my attached one sheet. Again, just a quick story. I have this woman that I’ve been working with, she was pitching and not getting on these shows and then when she went through my program and we started to work together, I said, look like the way you’re pitching isn’t really effective. So we got her one sheet all organized and I helped her pull out some very, very powerful and interesting topics. Then I said, look at the show and figure out what topic you really think would sing, but then tell them you have a couple others that they, so they’ve got choices because you don’t know, they may have just recorded an episode that’s super similar and they’re like, ah, I love this person, but I just did this topic. I’m not going to air it again. So you’re giving them some backup topics. That’s a couple things that I would try. [JOE] Hmm, awesome. Now for you, when you see people grow an audience quickly through podcasting, what are some of the commonalities that you see? [MELANIE] Some of the commonalities that help them grow quickly? [JOE] Yes. [MELANIE] Magnetic topic, number one, most important thing you do. Oftentimes the topic you think is magnetic isn’t. So do some research, do the work, deep dive into that inner messaging guru inside of you, or get some help if you’re like, this is not my jam, and find a topic that’s really going to set you apart. Secondly, you have to have a really, like you’ve got to deliver on the conversation. If you are boring your audience, they’re not going to do anything. Figure out how to craft a conversation. Even if your host is not asking you the questions you want them to ask you, you have to find the confidence and the courage to bring the conversation back to what you know is going to really showcase your expertise well. And not only showcase your expertise, but you want your audience to be so enraptured, like you’ve got to like know what it, that again, that client trifecta, like what is the thing that they’re struggling with and how can you talk to that? How can you show them these little glimpses that you are someone that can help them, give them something valuable and then make them like inspired to want to go further with you. You can bring that out in the conversation if you know how to really talk to the things. Again, third, pick the right podcast, they’ll get you in front of the right audience. Those are really the three biggest things. I had a client one time who she was doing all the right things, but she’s like, I’m getting a flood of clients, but these are not buyers. I looked at where she was at and I’m like, you’re not on the right podcast. We got to like fine tune some, I call it your audience avatar. You want to really be clear who your audience is and where you want to be so that you are attracting the right people and you’re building your list and getting potential client base for your program. [JOE] So awesome. Well, Melanie, thank you so much for hanging out with us here, for being on the podcast [MELANIE] Yes, thanks for having me [JOE] And all the support that you have for Practice of the Practice. We really appreciate it. Have a great day everybody. Talk to you soon. [MELANIE] Thanks everyone. [JOE] We couldn’t do this show without sponsors like Brighter Vision. Brighter Vision will help you with your website. If your existing website needs a refresh or maybe you’re a new therapist building a website for the first time, Brighter Vision is the perfect solution. You get unlimited tech support, make sure your website’s always up to date, professional search engine optimization to make sure you rank high, all of that’s included at no additional cost. Sign up for a new website during their Cyber Monday sale and get $20 a month off your first year of new website services on our Grow or Flourish plans. To take advantage of this amazing deal, just head on over to brightervision.com/joe. Again, that’s brightervision.com/joe. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. We’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. 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