How is owning a group practice like a tool you can use to work on your dreams? What should you do about office space post-pandemic for a new group practice? How do you start changing “me” to “we”?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok does a Live Consulting with Alisha Sweyd: Should I Start a Group Practice?
Podcast Sponsor: Next Level Practice
Next Level Practice is an on-going support system for mental health clinicians, counselors, and coaches who want to start and scale their own private practice featuring HUNDREDS of trainings, LIVE calls with our experts, a robust resource library, an exclusive online community, and SO MUCH MORE!
Meet Alisha Sweyd
Alisha Sweyd is a licensed marriage and family therapist practicing in California. She specializes in working with first responders and especially enjoys working with couples in the first responder life.
When not building her business, Alisha enjoys reading and spending time with her husband, children, and their dogs along the Monterey Coast.
In This Podcast
- Group practice as a tool
- Office space
- Change from “me” to “we”
Group practice as a tool
Opening a group practice allows you more time and freedom to pursue your goals, especially if they extend past counseling.
Owning a group practice provides you with a steady stream of income while your clinicians take over counseling the clients, leaving you with time on your hands to grow the practice and pursue your aspirations.
Hire people that fill the niche of the clients that you turn away at your practice so that you can stop referring out.
The rule of thumb that typically I [work with] is that for every office you have you can usually have two full-time people and one part-time person, or two or three part-time people. (Joe Sanok)
Office space may continue to become cheaper over time because, due to the pandemic, many people are opting to work online from home.
Be careful with long-term leases with regards to renting office space. There are creative ways for you to use a single office amongst a handful of clinicians.
Once your practice grows more, then you can renegotiate office space and how much you and your clinicians need.
Change from “me” to “we”
Evaluate your website and start to look at how to go from “me” to “we”. A lot of your website is probably you-focused because it’s been you … keep track of the main sales pages about “me” and turn them into about “us” pages. (Joe Sanok)
In general, start focusing less on yourself as the center of the practice and more on your clinicians and the practice itself as its entity.
Focus on marketing your clinicians to fill them up, raise your rates, and spend less time counseling, and slowly transition to running the business.
- Make sure to hire people who are similar enough to you to encourage a friendly and likeminded workspace.
- Set up the expectations in the interview so that clinicians have a good sense of what the group practice is like.
Useful Links mentioned in this episode:
- Visit the Code 3 Counseling website and listen to their podcast
- Connect with them on Facebook and Instagram
- Visit www.gusto.com and use promo code ‘joe’ to receive three months free
Check out these additional resources:
- Live Consulting with Jason Wilkinson: Should I Hire An Assistant? | PoP 628
- Apply to work together
- Pillars of Practice
- Sign up for Next Level Practice — Next Level Practice opens November 8th, 2021
- Events – click on the event’s dropdown
- Sign up to join the free webinars and events here
- Podcast Launch School
- Practice of the Practice Podcast Network
- Free resources to help you start, grow, and scale
- Apply to work with us — decision-making matrix for your next steps
Meet Joe Sanok
Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.
Thanks For Listening!
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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 629.
I’m Joe Sanok, your host and I hope that you are doing amazing. Is your week going awesome? I sure hope it is. I hope that the fall is treating you well. And if you aren’t a part of Next Level Practice and you’re starting a practice, if you’re under a hundred K that cohort opens on November 8th. We have over 200 clinicians that are in there. We’ve been investing and bringing in top experts. We have Dana our accountability coach. It’s just such a fun community of people that helps you get to that next level. You can go over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite to request your invite so that on November 8th, you can grab your spot right away. Well, today is another day from our live consulting sessions. I’m so excited to have Alicia Sweyd back on the podcast. She’s a private practice owner in California and the co-founder and director of Code 3 Counseling, where she specializes in working with first responders and their families. Alicia, I’m so excited to have you back on the Practice of the Practice.
I’m so glad to be back, Joe. Thanks for having me.
Yes, well, it’s so fun to do these live consulting calls because I get to hear where people are at and then they go do stuff and come back and have rocked it out. So give us a snapshot of what you’ve been working on since you were on the show, I don’t know, it’s six months ago?
So when I’m was on the show, last time we were talking about hiring a virtual assistant and what that would look like and how I would do that. I ended up hiring somebody and, oh my gosh, I’m still out of breath because I’m just like, it was such a game changer for me. I honestly don’t don’t think I would be where I am right now, if it weren’t for hiring my assistant, Vanessa. I’m speechless. I can’t even tell you what it meant for me to be able to hand off so many things to her and, especially to not answer my phone all the time and have to call people back. That pressure that I put on myself was just too much and Vanessa taking that on, since hiring her, I have started a podcast and I’ve gotten a lot more clients on board and the clients that I’ve gotten are all clients that I really enjoy working with. I’m not spending an hour talking to somebody who I’m trying to turn away that I’m not getting paid to do that for like, oh my God, it’s so —
Wall us through a little bit of how you did it, because I think that, so, I love hearing the joy and it just is one of those things that once you do it, you’re like, why did I ever try to [crosstalk]? So how did you find Vanessa, how did you train her, how’d you make sure that she kind of matched your voice and your style? Take us through some of those things.
So I actually, because I’m in California and all the W2 and hiring employee laws and all that kind of stuff, it was a little overwhelming for me, I ended up finding through Whitney actually, because she heard the episode that I was on with you and then brought it up when I was in her mastermind group. She told me about, oh gosh, what’s his name, Uria and his, the Productive Therapist Group. They have like a virtual assistant program where you can pay so much a month and then they have somebody who works with you. They only work with counselors so they get a lot of what’s going on there. So I didn’t have to train as far as knowing what is okay to talk about what’s not, or anything like the HIPAA stuff.
All that stuff was already taken care of, thank goodness. But when I was working with Vanessa, it was helping her understand what I needed in my clients so that she could turn people away from me and giving them resources to turn people away. In fact, she actually gathered some information to create like a printout PDF to give to people that I turn away on, because I get a lot of calls for couples, on how couples can prepare counseling. So it’s stuff that they can do in the interim and she did that and I was like, oh that’s genius. So now I don’t feel bad telling people I’m not taking everybody.
And helping her to understand how my intake process is because I do it differently with first responders than I do with people who are non-first responders, explaining that with her and kind of going over that. It was very quick. I mean she was very fast to understand, quick to know what to do. I haven’t had to correct anything which has been so refreshing. I think that was one of the scarier parts that I hadn’t realized was like I was thinking in my head, I’m going to hire some high school graduate who doesn’t know anything and I’m going to have to train them from the bottom. And that’s actually like, not reality.
Well, and I think that’s so true of whenever you outsource something, like to find someone that already is pretty well trained. And seeing people that, even with the podcast will try to hire someone to help and teach them and all that versus like our team, we have sound engineers and show notes people that do all of my show notes for me and they just know what they’re doing. So people genuinely don’t have to train them. So it is just a different mindset of that bootstrapping will get you to six figures, but like if you’re going to really go past that, being able to hire the right people just saves you so much time because like every hour that you’re spending training someone, you could be doing therapy.
Yes. Well, and it’s like, the things that she does in 15 minutes used to take me an hour and it’s because I just don’t like doing all of those things. I really hate cold calls. I hate it. I don’t know about anybody else, but I do not like getting a voicemail and then listening to the voicemail and then thinking about calling that person and then trying to imagine like what that phone call’s going to be like, and if they’re not the right fit, how am I going to turn them away? So it would end up taking a lot more of my time and having her do it, I’m sometimes amazed, wait, you only spent that much time this week answering phones? Normally it would take me like three hours or four hours and she’s got it all done in one, which was one of the reasons why she started doing other things like creating the PDF printout.
She’s put together a networking form for me that’s got lists of all of the different fire departments and police departments and EMS places in the three counties around me. She’s got all of this on a Google doc with their address, phone numbers, contacts and then all I have to do is print out a letter, put my press packet together and mail it out. I don’t have to do the research of finding those addresses anymore. She did all of that and it’s just, I mean, such a game changer for me.
So what have you spent your time on that maybe in taking those things off your plate allowed you to level up faster?
Well, one of the things was having a podcast. That has been so helpful in my networking with other departments because they get to know me and they get to hear what I work with and how I work with different things. And one of the things that I’ve actually really enjoyed is people at departments will use my podcast as a resource for their responders to be like, “Hey, I see you dealing with this. Listen to this and it’s talking about burnout or it’s talking about healthy coping skills.” And they use it as a resource. Then another thing, because I’ve done that, I’ve also gotten departments calling me to come and do briefing trainings and talking about how to get mental health services and what that looks like and what to expect to help bridge the gap between the responders on the street and getting the help that they need.
And I wasn’t doing, I mean, I did that a little bit before, but it was only with like the department in the city that I work in and the one next door. Now I’m getting ones from departments in other counties that are asking me to come in and do this stuff. It’s also because I was able to send out the press packet to these people that I wouldn’t have done for another, probably six or seven months because I didn’t have the time to go on and find the address and find the name of the chief and the captains and all that stuff. Vanessa did all of that for me in like a week and a half
I just love having Jess as my director of details or I hired a PR company to help with the book launch and to find those people that are really good at what they do and can do it way better than even if I tried to do it. The PR company has all these connections for the book that like, I don’t know those people. They have connections with the New York Times and with CNN and like Bloomberg News. I don’t know how to do any of that. So it’s good to hear people that know what they’re doing. Well, so where are you at now and where are you stuck? So we’ve got probably 15 minutes left or so in the call. It’s good to you’re at what you’ve done, but where are you stuck? What do you think is your next level that you’re moving into? And then I’ll see if I can brainstorm some ideas for you.
So one of the things where I’m like, this all happened seriously within the past five days, I’ve been like, oh my gosh, this is an opportunity. I’m thinking, expanding and starting to hire clinicians. But part of it is just one, the reluctance of hiring clinicians and being a boss in California in particular and all the little nuances that go with that, but two finding space and having a space. So in the building that I’m in, I’m in like a one office space and then there’s another one office space down the hall that just opened up and has become available. I’m talking with the property manager to see about getting that space as well and then like having more space to hire more people at once than just one. But then I’m like, I don’t know if I could more than just one at a time. So it’s like figuring out.
And also at the time that I’m dealing with all of this, I’m getting all of these requests to do presentations and to do trainings. I actually got a call that was, I did a presentation at one department that, one of the guys at that department is married to somebody who works at an Amazon facility and then they were talking about it and then that person at the Amazon facility let somebody else know at the Amazon facility and now Amazon is asking me to come and do a mental health training at their facility. So I’m getting a lot of like, people want me to come and do these talks into, like there’s two different avenues in my practice that I can take. It’s the group launch kind of thing, or the more speaking engagements and they’re both happening at once, which is kind of overwhelming.
Yes. Well, let’s just start with congratulations. That’s amazing that all that’s happening. So we’ll just start there. I would view the group practice as a way to open up your schedule to do more of the speaking. Because it sounds like you enjoy that. But to know that there’s income that’s coming in outside of your own time, if you only focus on the speaking, then it’s going to bring people into your practice that want to see you, whereas if you have a group practice, then you’re making that money off of kind of other people. I’m glad you’re thinking this way, because when you said I’m turning away couples, it’s like, well, who should your first hire bee, someone that does couples.
Because if you are already turning those people away and people are asking for it look for someone that either already is Gottman certified or that you could pay to put them through level one or level two. Finding the kind of people that match where you’re getting calls that you don’t want, I think would be priority number one, because that’s going to free your schedule. So, I mean, Whitney and Alison have Group Practice Launch, and they’ve helped lots of people in California do it. So don’t recreate the wheel. You’re going to spend so much on attorneys and accountants making things from scratch when in reality like that community, we have so much of the California paperwork that people have just shared with us that we can share with you.
So it’s like, I mean, California is so complicated that Californians are like, here’s our paperwork, share it with anyone that needs it. So I think that, I know that we’re recording this before the next Group Practice Launch, so I can connect you with them or just email Whitney or Alison. I know you’re already connected with them. So that to me would be, it would save you so much time to just go through that program and you’d be with other people that are going through it.
Yes. I do want to do that, but then the group practice part is like, that’s not for another three months I think. So it’s like, do I take advantage of it now?
And I mean, it may be worth it to just reach out to Whitney or Alison and just have them, I’m sure that they have some things kind of in lead up because there’s a number of other people that are ready now at the time of this recording. And they’re super flexible. They may be able to give you a couple individual sessions or access to the e-course. They’re sorting that out because we want to have a really strong cohort and that’s why they’re only doing it twice a year, but then there are people like yourself that fall between cohorts and you’re like ready now. So, I would just reach out to them.
Thinking through what specialties you would want people to have, and , I wouldn’t recommend that you get that second office right now. The rule of thumb that typically I have is that for every office you have, you can usually have two full-time people and one part-time person in there. Or you can have two or three part-time people. So if you’re are doing 15 or 20 sessions a week, but now you’re doing more speaking, so you’re limiting your schedule so you’re out of the office more or maybe you have one day a week that you do all online from home to free up your office, I think that office space is going to continue to get cheaper because with the pandemic, a lot of people realized, wait, we don’t need to have a 10-office suite. We can have a two office suite and have people just share it and work from home.
So I would really be careful about any sort of long term lease in regards to getting more space. Because I do think that there’s creative ways that you can do it with your single office. Now, when you get to three or four W2s and they’re competing for space and you’re turning people away because you don’t have the space, that’s a great time to look at, do we want this other one office in the building, or do we want to upgrade to a four-office suite? Then you’ll kind of know how long it takes to bring someone on, how to get them full, how your speaking’s going. You may, at that point say I’m sick of even being in the office and I just want everyone else to use my office. So it’s a good way to keep your risk and your liabilities down.
I think that another big thing that you’ll want to do is kind of evaluate your website and start to look at how to go from me to we because a lot of your website is probably you focus because it’s been you. So you’ll just want to keep track of what are the main kind of sales pages about me, turn to about us pages. In general, you want to start to have less focus on yourself and more focus on the new clinicians so that people want to book with them, teaching Vanessa, if she hasn’t done it how do you switch someone that wants to work with you to work with this new clinician, to say this person was hand picked, they’ve been trained, they’ve gone through all these trainings that have been put together.
It’s a great way to then kind of have a handoff that they’re hand picked and hand trained by you to be a part of the practice. Then, I mean, it’s really just, especially in California, it’s making sure you do your paperwork right. I mean, making sure you do all the, use something like Gusto that you can have your accountant just set up and it just automatically kind of pays the taxes and does everything like that once it’s set up. You shouldn’t be going through and like sending checks to the state for things. It should all be automated through something like Gusto. You use promo code [JOE].
I want to say you get three months free. I’d have to check on exact, I’m pretty sure it’s three months, but yes, if you just use promo code [JOE] on that, that’ll give you three months free. Then really, it’s just a matter of making sure your accountant kind of knows you have W2s. There are some situations, and I’m not an expert on California, but if you’re doing like a simple 401k or certain kinds of retirement for yourself, you want to be careful. If you’re already giving yourself retirement, you may have to give that same retirement to your W2 employees.
So you may need to have like a separate company that you’re hired by that you’re retirement and all that runs through because that whole equal benefits kind of thing, it may be that you’re hired as the CEO from a different company and then they’re hired under a clinical company. So you’ll just want to make sure that for California and how you have your retirement and your healthcare and all that set up just to make sure that you don’t end up getting in a situation where you have to pay all these employees massive retirement if you’re using that as like a tax advantage for yourself.
I am so excited about cohort number 17 of Next Level Practice. Next Level Practice is the program for you from the moment you say to yourself, I want to start a practice all way until you’re ready to make your first hire. It is the program for solo practitioners. So if you’re ready to level up this year, our next cohort opens on November 8th. It’s only open for a few days. So you’re going to want to go over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite so that you can dive right in. When you go over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite, you’ll see all the testimonials from people that have leveled up in insane ways.
Take Christie Pennison, who says, “The Practice of the Practice podcast and the Next Level Practice community has helped me grow faster than I ever thought possible. From being able to move back to my hometown, start a practice from scratch and grow into a group practice in a little under a year, I have learned so much from all the guests and from Joe. I couldn’t be where I am today without you all.”
Or take Jason Wilkinson who says, “Six months into launching my private practice, I was seeing four to six clients a week. I was frustrated, tired and feeling like I was grasping at straws on how to market. Next Level Practice provided a supportive community, expert consultants to ask questions of and marketing strategies to help me grow my practice into one that I love. If you are looking for knowledge, accountability, and support, I strongly encourage you to take the leap into Next Level Practice. You will be glad you did.”
Or take Page who says, “I’m a part-time clinician. I went from zero clients a month to 30 plus clients a month in six months.”
So we’re seeing huge results from people and there’s tons more testimonials over at practicewithpractice.com/invite. You’re going to get access to over 30 e-courses that will walk you through how to start and grow your practice. You’re going to get us to experts every single month like myself and other folks we bring in. As well you get a small group, accountability partners. It really is the inclusive program to help you get to the next level. So to join Next Level Practice in this final cohort of 2021 head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite. Again, that’s practice of practice.com/invite. For only $99 a month you will get access to all of this and lock in that price forever.
I threw a lot at you. Where do you have questions?
I am writing it all down.
You’ll get the recording of this too, before it goes live so that you can go back through it.
So I think for me, one of the things that I really get caught up in is my own head when I’m thinking about becoming a boss and the fear, how scary that is for me. Because I never, ever, ever, ever, ever in a million years, want to run a business, like with people being hired and having to do interviews and things like that. And I get caught up in what if I have to fire somebody? Oh my gosh, what if I have to let somebody go? How am I going to do that? So how do I kind of get over my own way and being able to do that?
So I hate being a supervisor. I have hated, I don’t currently hate it. I hate having people do what they should just do as a professional. I hate having conversations where it’s like, how are you so dumb that you don’t know to do this? I just really, I mean, working at community mental health or as a foster care supervisor or as like an intern supervisor, there were so many times that I’m just like, how is this even something you think is acceptable? So I’m just starting with that point of view. So with my practice, a 1099 was a great fit for me, which isn’t in California, but you can still have that kind of mindset. So to me, I’m not a micromanager, I’m the kind of person that says to, so Sam and Sam, they’re kind of top of that whole admin side of Practice of the Practice.
Sam C is in charge of the whole marketing division. Sam R is in charge of all the podcasting division. Then they each have four staff underneath them or so. Sam R has more because of all the sound engineers. So we’ve got 12 or 13 people that we’ve employed outside of our consultants. So I am much more here’s the outcome, here I want is the frustrations I don’t want to have to deal with. You make the plan and tell me how you’re going to do it. Now how do you apply that to kind of clinicians is deciding, do you want this practice to be like a family where we have a culture and we hang out at the water cooler and barbecue together?
hat’s what like Whitney and Alison have really developed with their practices. They have these very emotionally huggy supportive places. Great for them. That’s not what I wanted. I have plenty of friends outside of my business. I didn’t need to hang out with the clinicians. So I said that to people from the front end, like, I will support you if you say, I need help in these areas. But also I get that you may just want to show up, do your work and get paid. And that’s okay with me too, that we’re nice to each other, but we’re not going to hang out all the time. So I think for you understanding your own personality, what you want out of it so you don’t get in a situation where you have a bunch of staff saying, I thought we were going to barbecue together and you’re like, screw you. I want to go home.
So I think starting with what kind of people do you want, making sure that when you interview, you say, hey, I’m looking for autonomous people that can express to me their needs. If you want to get certified in EMDR, we talk about that if that’s going to be a fit, but also I’m not going to be checking in on you every day. I trust that you’re a competent professional and you’re here to do a job and to get paid. You set whatever it is that you want in the interview so that those people go, whoa, that’s not what I’m looking for. I want to have a touchy, feely, huggy place. Like, okay, well that’s not this place or maybe it is this place.
So I think I would start with that. If you have been a supervisor other places, I would say throw that out the window because you have skills you learned from there, but also, you know the people that end up in a nonprofit or the people that end up in a county job or whatever, they’re just going to be different than the people that you attract and you get to kind of mold the team that you want to mold. Whereas typically at least for myself, when I was a supervisor, it’s not like I hired every single one of those staff or even that it was my business. It was community mental health or a foster care place. So I wouldn’t worry too much about your own supervision skills and realize that that there’s a lot of skills that you could develop that you’re going to learn as you go.
One set of questions I ask my staff every, at least every year is first what are parts of your job that you absolutely love? And this can be with clinicians or with support staff. What’s part of your job that you absolutely love? Second, what are parts of your job that you absolutely hate and you wish we could give to somebody else? Third, where are you headed that I can help support you? So that could be a training or something like that. So for example, Sam C years ago, when I asked her that last question, she said, I would love to learn video editing. So we put her through this week long video editing course in Cape town, South Africa. She found it, she said, here’s the one. It looks good to me. Let me know what you think.
I said, great. You found it. That looks good. So she does all our video editing now, and now she’s doing work that she really enjoys. We’ve taken a bunch off with her plate over the years, too. So the same with the clinicians. There may be things that they’re like I thought I wanted to work with couples, but now I kind of don’t want to anymore. And that’s okay. You want to help people to be able to grow and shape and make the job their own rather than have to just get a supervision position to make more money.
Well, and I love that too, because that’s what I’ve loved about how I’ve been growing my practice, especially with NLP, like doing the things I really like to do and having fun with it and then thinking about, okay, well, what else can I pass off to Vanessa that I don’t want to do?
Well, and that, I mean, I think that’s the big shift also in just society where the idea of people being a certain role is such an industrialist model versus it being organic and evolutionary, where to level up in a business, we shouldn’t just have to become a supervisor. We shouldn’t just in a traditional job just work harder. We should be able to kind of create the roles that we want if it matches the business where it’s headed. I mean, all of those things you can bring into your practice to make it the practice you want to be a supervisor of, that you want to have those people. It’s yours.
So in the last couple minutes, any kind of final questions or implementations that you want some feedback on?
Nothing’s coming to my mind. It’ll probably come to me at like 3:00 AM. I’ll wake up in the middle, oh man, I should have asked that.
Well, I mean, I think the big thing is remember that the group practice is to free up your time and to make money when you’re not there. Because that’s going to then allow you all that other stuff with Amazon or speaking or those things. If you do the Amazon speaking, book writing, podcasting, if you do all that first, it’s going to give you more business than you know what to do with, and you’re going to leave so much money on the table by like referring people out. So imagine every time that you refer out for a couple. That’s 50 to a hundred dollars an hour, depending on what your split ends up being or how you end up doing it with your W2s that is going out the door.
So every time that you, say four times a week people are being referred out and those could be filling a clinician. I mean that’s a couple thousand dollars a month potentially over time. So yes, that’s money that is just, you’d be out of the office anyway. You might as well keep that in house.
Awesome. Well, I can’t wait to have you back to hear how you continue to level up. If people want to connect with you, if they want to follow your podcast or learn about your practice, what’s the best way for them to connect with you?
The best way to connect with me is through my website, code3counseling.com. Then my podcast is the Code 3 Counseling podcast.
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.
Thank you, Joe. I really appreciate it.
So go take some action. I mean, what I love about this series is it’s people that just a few months ago, we did that live consulting call. They came back and they’re killing it even more. I mean, Amazon, Amazon, can you believe it? I mean, how sweet is that? Amazon wants her to come speak about mental health and mental wellness and all of that. It’s like, you don’t know what doors are going to open when you start to level up. When you start to take the stuff that you just know you shouldn’t be doing and outsourcing it, finding someone else to do it, maybe just eliminating it, not doing it anymore, realizing that you don’t maybe need to do certain things anymore. And then you put that energy and that time into just bigger and better things.
It’s so awesome to see the communities of Next Level Practice, Group Practice Boss. We have a supportive community, a membership community for every phase of practice. From the moment that you say to yourself what? I want to start a private practice, we’ve got a community for you there all the way up through scaling a group practice. So all of that’s over at practiceofthepractice.com. If you want to be a part of our next Next Level Practice cohort that is coming up on November 8th, it’s right around the corner. Just head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite. You can get your invite there and we would love to have you be a part of that community.
Thanks so much for letting me into your brain and into your ears. I flipped that this time, usually it’s your ears and into your brain. So I guess it’s brain first, then ears. That’s weird. Whatever.
So have a great day. Talk to you soon. Bye.
Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. We really like it. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.