[JOE SANOK]
This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 627.

Well, I’m Joe Sanok, your host. Welcome to the Practice of the practice podcast. I hope that your week is going amazing, that you’re doing good things in the world, that you’re connecting in the world. There are so many awesome things coming up. Even if there’s also things, who knows at the time of this recording, what’s going on with the pandemic or politics or global warming. There are a lot of challenges in our world for sure. And we can still try to be that light to other people. So really excited that you are here. I am just over the moon that our last cohort for Next Level Practice is opening on November 8th, 2021. I’m so excited for this group. There’s a bunch of really excited people that are coming in.

If you don’t know what Next Level Practice is, Next Level Practice is the membership community. It’s for you when you have that idea of maybe I should start a private practice all the way until you hire your first person. So usually that’s up to about a hundred thousand dollars or so a year. But you don’t always have to level up into a group. Today we’re actually going to be talking to Elizabeth a little bit about that as well, but November 8th, that opens. So make sure you’re on the early bird list for that over at practiceofthepractice.com/invite. You can read all about it. You can read testimonials, what it’s like. We have over 30 e-courses. We bring in experts every single month, people like Pat Flynn, John Lee Dumas, Laurie Gottlieb, Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman, just big, big names that we bring into Next Level Practice. So make sure you’re a part of that if you are in that demographic, that’s starting and growing a practice.

Well, let me tell you a little bit about Elizabeth Meyer, who is back on the show today. Elizabeth has been described as a warm, caring and intuitive therapist. Her client’s report feeling seen, heard, and hopeful from their sessions together. Her specialties are life transitions, depression, anxiety, infertility, pregnancy, and parenting relationship issues, spirituality, and meaning making. Elizabeth welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast.
[ELIZABETH MEYER]
Thank you, Joe. Thank you so much for having on.
[JOE]
So earlier in the year we had talked about where you were at in your practice and kind of brainstormed some things. Why don’t we start with what did we cover during that for people that maybe missed that episode and what did you do with that advice and information?
[ELIZABETH]
Well, we had talked about perhaps me pursuing a group practice since I was feeling pretty full and I was turning people away. I thought that was a great idea. I did some research about it and what I came to, for me was that the work that I do, I absolutely adore my in-session work. What I came to understand about group practice was that it’s a lot more administrative and that it takes you out of doing that one to one work. So I decided for me that wasn’t a good fit for my skillset and for what I wanted to be doing. So I decided that group practice was not the right place for me.
[JOE]
Well, it’s good to do that kind of digging in and kind of figuring out how you would approach a group practice and to make that decision.
[ELIZABETH]
Yes, I felt like I had more clarity once I, I was excited by the possibility of thought, ooh, maybe this is something I could do. And as I researched it just didn’t feel right and there is something really nice about being clear about that.
[JOE]
So then where does that leave you now?
[ELIZABETH]
Well, as I mentioned last time, I’m also a certified coach, so that left me with much more clarity around it’s time to launch my coaching practice. So I feel like I have some really good skills in terms of helping people transition out when they’re stuck and as someone who really struggled. I was a stay-at-home mom for 12 years and I remember when I came back to do the private practice, there was so much for me to overcome in terms of like, claiming that space for myself. And actually Joe, you were the one who helped me get over that.
[JOE]
How was that? How did I help you?
[ELIZABETH]
I had just been struggling for so long with feeling like I couldn’t do it. You just said only 8% of people have a master’s and you have one, like you’re part of that 8%. And there was just something about that that made me realize, yes, like, I do have a master’s degree. I can do this. And then I joined Next Level Practice and a year and a half later here I am.
[JOE]
Now, so for your practice, what would you say is going well so that you’re thinking I want to expand into coaching. How do you determine, okay now is the time to make this jump into something new? Because I think that’s something people struggle with where they don’t know, okay, how good does my practice have to be before I start something new? How do you think through that?
[ELIZABETH]
Well, I think for me, this was always part of my vision. I actually joined, I got involved with the coaching world in 1998 and I actually got my certification in 2003. So for me it was like always part of the dream was to the private practice and the coaching. And I think those things took a big backseat when I took time off to raise my kids and when came back, I came back with a clear vision of, I want coaching, I want therapy and I want coaching. So for me, I think the practice field’s stable enough, full enough. And I think for me a piece of that was also where’s the balance? I think last spring, there was just so many people needing help. I took on people without really thinking, does this fit into my vision? And I discovered that for me, like 18 to 20, like 20 people a week is just too much. So getting some clarity around, okay, if I can do like 18 people, 15 to 18 a week that will leave me a day free to develop this coaching.
[JOE]
So where do you feel most stuck regarding kind of getting the coaching arm going for yourself?
[ELIZABETH]
I feel like therapy is more of a known product if you will and it’s like the pipeline is easier. So it’s taken me a while to sit with the coaching. And again, the market is so saturated with coaches. I feel like everybody says, oh, I’m a coach. So I think there’s some, like fear around that like, oh, everybody else is doing this. Who needs me? But I know when I think about it, I know that my people will find me. And for me, I think it just took a while of sitting with who am I and what do I have to offer? And I just keep coming back to when I had been that stay-at-home mom and really struggling to reclaim for myself, hey, I’m a therapist and even though I’ve taken time off, I’m still a therapist. So I’ve gotten to, is, I’d like to coach women entrepreneurs who are struggling with imposter syndrome, because I feel like that’s a really solid market and I feel like that’s a really solid niche. So I think it’s just like okay, now what?
[JOE]
Yes, yes. So I did this whole podcast series outside of Practice of the Practice called how to become a consultant. One of the big things was first build a specialty, then build an audience, then build an income because once you have the audience and you have the people around that, the products reveal themselves. We teach this in podcast launch school and a number of other areas. So really the biggest thing is audience building at this point. So that can be in a few different ways. That can be through blogging, guest blogging, podcasting, guest podcasting. It can be building an Instagram following. It really is less clear cut than maybe how a typical counseling practice is.

So I would start with which platforms do you enjoy the most? Maybe it’s just that you want to talk, but you don’t want a podcast. So it’s getting to be a guest on a bunch of shows, maybe it’s that you’re building out a website and doing a weekly blog post aimed, particularly at those types of women. When I say that, when I say that here’s kind of some of the options, which of those feel like things that you’re interested in pursuing that we could talk about and which of those things feel like I totally don’t want to have that be a part of my equation?
[ELIZABETH]
Well, I’m on Facebook, so that feels more doable, I think. I’m not on Instagram and I feel like I’d rather not add another social media stream. And I think being a guest on a blog sounds good because I feel like, I don’t know that I want to take on developing a podcast.
[JOE]
So when you say being a guest on a blog, do you mean guest on a podcast or being a guest writer for a blog?
[ELIZABETH]
Oh no, I’m sorry, I was thinking of two things at once. Being a guest on podcasts.
[JOE]
So then I would say some of the best ways to get onto podcasts is to really start connecting with people that are serving parts of your audience. So you don’t want to find coaches that have a podcast that helps women entrepreneurs to overcome imposter syndrome because then you’re competing with the host. Whereas if you find a host that say just teaches stay-at-home moms how to move on to something big or just teaches women entrepreneurs, then within that you can become the known expert in that area. So that’s where I see a lot of people trip up. You find people doing exactly what they want to do. It’s like if someone came to me and said, so I have a membership community that helps counselors start growing and scale their private practices, we have experts come in, I’d be like, you sound like a great person, but that’s a product that directly competes with my product.

Even though I think people would probably go to different products for different reasons, if it was almost identical, be like, well, what are you going to offer that I’m not already offering my audience? So really fighting those areas as a guest where you can be the expert on that area within the kind of larger umbrella specialty. So I would start with that. And if you’re on Facebook that can be that you’re joining three to five different Facebook communities. I would definitely recommend that you’re reaching out to the admin and saying, “Here’s what I do. I don’t want to be in here just promoting myself. I want to offer genuine value or other things that I could do to help support your community.”

So it may be something like that they end up hosting a Facebook Live with you where you talk about imposter syndrome, where you talk about the challenges that are unique to women entrepreneurs, you talk about all the five pitfalls that most women fall into. So those relationships are going to open those doors and then once you get on three to five podcasts I would definitely say that at that point the doors start opening themselves where you can just say to that host are there other podcasters that you know that I’d be a good fit for?

The other thing is just having good equipment. So if you go to practiceofthepractice.com/mic, M-I-C, that’ll direct you to the microphone that I recommend. It’s a hundred dollars microphone, but it sounds really good. If you don’t have one, I see that you have based on, at least within this system looks like you have the Sampson Media Mic USB. So you already have a good quality mic. So you don’t really probably have to do that, but if listeners didn’t have a mic that would be the mic that I’d recommend to.
[ELIZABETH]
Oh, thanks. So I’ve done one piece of that. I’m on a group called Holistic Entrepreneurs geared towards women entrepreneurs in the spiritual realm who maybe don’t have so much business experience. And I’ve done some, I’ve connected with the admin of that group and she and I are beginning to explore how I can help her community. She and I are thinking of some events together. Yes, that feels really exciting.
[JOE]
I mean, I think that the big thing to have very early on is an email course. So I call an email course an email list or an email newsletter because people don’t want a newsletter. They don’t want another email. But if you call an email course, people are all about it. So let me walk you through what that would look like. So first you want to have some sort of PDF that they can opt into. Typically, you’re going to build this PDF after you’ve written the part-email course, because you want to know where you’re going before you kind of have your very front end thing.
[NEXT LEVEL PRACTICE]
I am so excited about cohort number 17 of Next Level Practice. Next Level Practice is the program for you from the moment you say to yourself, I want to start a practice all the way until you’re ready to make your first hire. It is the program for solo practitioners. So if you’re ready to level up this year, our next cohort opens on November 8th. It’s only open for a few days. So you’re going to want to go over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite so that you can dive right in. When you go over practiceofthepractice.com/invite, you’ll see all the testimonials from people that have leveled up in insane ways. Take Christie Pennison, who says, “The Practice of the Practice podcast and the Next Level Practice community has helped me grow faster than I ever thought possible, from being able to move back to my hometown, start a practice from scratch and grow into a group practice in a little under a year. I have learned so much from all the guests and from Joe. I couldn’t be where I am today without you all.”

Or take Jason Wilkinson who says, “Six months into launching my private practice, I was seeing four to six clients a week. I was frustrated, tired and feeling like I was grasping at straws to market and grow. Next Level Practice provided a supportive community, expert consultants to ask questions of and marketing strategies to help me grow my practice into one that I love. If you are looking for knowledge, accountability, and support, I strongly encourage you to take the leap into Next Level Practice. You will be glad you did.”

Or take Page who said, “I’m a part-time clinician. I went from zero clients a month to 30 plus clients a month in six months.” So we’re seeing huge results from people. And there’s tons more testimonials over at practiceofthepractice.com/invite, where you’re going to get access to over 30 e-courses that will walk you through how to start and grow your practice. You’re going to get access to experts every single month like myself and other folks we bring in. As well you get a small group, accountability partners. It really is the inclusive program to help you get to the next level. So to join Next Level Practice in this final cohort of 2021 head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/invite. Again, that practiceofthepractice.com/invite. For only $99 a month, you will get access to all of this and lock in that price forever.
[JOE]
So we’ll just pause on the email opt-in that PDF. So the first email, typically, you’re going to want to say it’s just a short email, “Hey, yesterday, I sent you the PDF called the overcome imposter syndrome workbook. Just want to make sure you got that. If you did, just reply yes.” So for one you want to just make sure people got it, but for two, you want to start a conversation with folks. So Gmail and other platforms, they want to see a back and forth, not just a one-sided email. So by them saying, yes, I got it, you can then reply, “Great. What are you working on in your world?” So when you’re early on, you can add that personalization where your first a hundred people that opt into your email, you might get one a day. So that takes you 15 seconds to say, “Awesome, glad you got the email. Where are you working on imposter syndrome? Is it in your personal life or in your business?”

So you’re starting those conversations so that your earliest adopters just absolutely love you. So then your next email is going to be some sort of quick five-minute exercise. So for me, when people are starting a practice, I do have a really short video on how do you Google in your area to see the top competition? How do you evaluate the competition? So what’s something that in five minutes they could get some interesting information about imposter syndrome? So you’ll want to work through just a quick exercise. So that could be a video. It could just be written out.

Then you want to walk into the nine-part email series we recommend. So the first three emails are going to walk through basically how this female entrepreneur was set up for failure by society. So women have been told this message throughout that here’s the sacrifices women make often to raise kids. Here’s why they feel like imposters. So by the end of those first three, you want the user to kind of feel like, man, I was set up for that. There’s a huge challenge of society here that’s totally outside of my control. So you’re taking away the emotions of I’m the failure as the reader, and really there’s this external enemy that has kind of set you up for failure. So that feels easier for most people to overcome.

So then the next three emails are all going to be quick wins. So they’re going to be little thing that they can do in probably five to 10 minutes that’s going to help them take a little bite out of that imposter syndrome. You don’t want this to be a huge commitment. So overall we’re wanting this person to open the emails and take larger and larger commitments over time. So that’s where we had a quick five minute exercise at the beginning. We’re kind of destigmatizing how they got here. Now we’re saying here’s a couple of ways that you can have some quick wins.

Then the last three emails, you want these to be long-term habits. So you’re getting more and more commitment from the person to you as a guide where you say if you’re really going to overcome imposter syndrome here’s a 10-minute meditation that you could do every single day that I put together on my YouTube channel or here’s a list of affirmations you could print out and put on your mirror or whatever kind of your modality is of how you’re helping them create long-term habits to try to overcome this imposter syndrome. So then when you’ve built that entire thing out, now, imagine you’re on a podcast interview and you say I have my imposter syndrome workbook that your listeners can opt into. It’s a 10-page workbook that then also walks them through nine weeks of emails, taking them from feeling like they’re an imposter to, by the end, having some really strong habits to overcome imposter syndrome. Now you have a robust thing that you can point people to and that those folks are going to be so excited to opt into. So you don’t just go on the podcast. You now go on the podcast and then you get email subscribers that you can follow up with over time.
[ELIZABETH]
Wow. That’s amazing.

Good thing we recorded this.
[ELIZABETH]
I know I’m taking notes like crazy.
[JOE]
All right. So after that so the other thing that I think is really important as you’re especially stepping into being a podcast guest, is to curate, almost like in the same way a band has a playlist of different songs they may play during a set, to have a set of stories that really point to different things. So when have you felt like an imposter, when did you feel like it was a challenge jumping back into the work world, when did you feel supported or unsupported in entering the workforce? When as a female entrepreneur did you feel like you are under the thumb of the patriarchy? All these stories that point to just the challenges that women deal with, and then how did you overcome them? So you also want to have three steps to do this, five steps to do this, five pitfalls that women fall into.

Usually three or five is the most that you’re going to want. But really quick hitting things that if you can have some research back it up, some stories back it up, then you’ve got this list of probably 12 major talking points that you could go through on any given podcast, knowing that on one podcast, you may only go through three of them. You may tell a story, you may give your three things, and then maybe you’ll tell another story, talk about some research and then maybe five things, and then you’re done with the show. So then you’re prepared where you have some wonderful stories that you’ve been able to articulate and then also some kind of main points and research you can point to.
[ELIZABETH]
Okay. Yes, this is good we’re recording this. You’re giving me a lot of information. It’s wow.
[JOE]
Yes, a couple resources that are really helpful, especially around public speaking, the book, The Storyteller’s Secret is an amazing book by Carmine Gallo. He walks through all these different ways of doing storytelling. So even just the idea of going from the macro to the micro and back to the macro to say something like therapists across the nation are dealing with an inability to know how to start a practice, how to grow a business. I mean, grad schools aren’t teaching this stuff still. Let me tell you a story about one individual where this really, really kind of comes to light. So I’ve taken the macro and I’ve zoomed into the micro and here’s this one person that was working on SEO, Jessica Tappana, and she didn’t know what to do, but then she figured it out and she started teaching other therapists how to do it.

Now let’s zoom back out. So even just learning these kind of skills or tools in storytelling of going from the macro to the micro and then back to the macro those kind of skills can be very helpful when you’re doing storytelling. Also learning about Joseph Campbell’s, The Hero’s Journey of the idea of if you just think about Star Wars you’ve got Luke Skywalker, he goes off and slays the dragon and comes back a changed person. So having that be part of the narrative of what you tell both in your own stories, but even the challenges of society. So who’s the enemy in this situation? So society has set us up as women entrepreneurs to feel like we are imposters. Here’s a couple examples of how that kind of, enemy that’s out there, that smoke monster is pushing us down, and then here’s how we’re going to overcome it. Here’s how we’re going to fight that dragon. So incorporating that in as well is just more dynamic storytelling.
[ELIZABETH]
I never would’ve thought of that. I’m glad that you, because I’ve heard a lot about people want to hear your story, how you overcame this and people want to hear how like the things that you did so that if you are a success, you can show them. But I like that you’re talking sort of these broader arcs. And I like also that you’re talking about reducing the individual shame, because I do think a lot of people feel like, oh, it’s my fault. Everybody else has this figured out. Why can’t I get it? So I like that idea of reducing the individual stigma around it.
[JOE]
And I think even to say, yes, I’ve overcome these things, but here’s where I’m still a work in progress. Here’s where I feel like an imposter still. This is what I’m doing currently to try to overcome that. To show that process publicly is really compelling. So even when I’m getting interviewed for Thursday is the New Friday I talk about the times that I’ve failed at making Thursday the new Friday or when I made exceptions and why sometimes I’m okay with those exceptions and sometimes I’m not okay with those exceptions. So even being able to talk about how do you think through exceptions to imposter syndrome and when you even recently felt like I felt like a total imposter again, and I went back to those old mindsets that makes you approachable that you’re not just this guru on high, but you’re a co-learner, who’s maybe five or 10 steps ahead of your audience. So you’re more approachable because of that.
[ELIZABETH]
I love that. That’s really I think important that we stay approachable and that people feel like, like you said, like we’re just a few steps ahead of them.
[JOE]
And I think it also takes the pressure off of you where if people are like, oh, you’re the guru Elizabeth. You’re supposed to have all your act together, blah, blah, blah, versus you know what? I told you I’m a few steps ahead of you. I’m going to fall on my face and make ridiculous choices and I’m going to let you down and I’m going to learn from it. I’m going to own it and I’m going to teach you what I did wrong so that you don’t have to make those mistakes. Those are the kind of people that I think folks are compelled to way more than the people that are self-proclaimed experts and have everything together.
[ELIZABETH]
Yes, absolutely. And I’m glad you’re saying that explicitly, because I think intuitively we know that, but it’s easy to forget that.
[JOE]
Well, and I mean, I think a lot of that imposter syndrome is us thinking we have to get it a hundred percent right a hundred percent of the time. And the reality is we’re humans that are doing our very best most of the time and there’s times that we have shortcomings. Like that’s the reality of it. So to help people that and say, I’m going to do my best and I’m also going to fail, that then gives them permission to try new things and to fail publicly and to then say, okay, I’m going to change things around a little bit because that didn’t work for me.
[ELIZABETH]
Right. And to normalize that as part of this, this is how we learn. I tell my therapy clients that sometimes we can see the line and we know where it is be before we cross it and sometimes the only way we learn is by stepping over the line and having it suck and you go, oh, that didn’t feel good. I don’t like that. Now I know where the line is because I went over it.
[JOE]
Absolutely. Well, Elizabeth in the last minute or so tell us what are some actions that you’re going to take as a result of this call?
[ELIZABETH]
I’m going to have to go back and listen to the podcast. Joe you’ve given me so much good advice. I think reaching out to research some other communities where I can be of help, because I can see in this one where I’m connected that this is going to be a really good resource for me. So I guess researching communities that work with part of my audience not direct competition, but that I could help them too. And to begin to rough out this nine-part email series.
[JOE]
Awesome. Well, if you need any help with that, just reach out to us and we’ll point you in the right direction. Thank you so much for being in the Practice of the Practice podcast today.
[ELIZABETH MEYER]
Oh thank you so much for having me here. I got so much out of this. This was terrific.
[JOE]
Well, I love that Elizabeth shifted, that she got advice to start a group practice, evaluated it and then said that’s not really for me. That’s not the direction I’m headed. You can do this. This is your business. So I can give you advice, but in the same way that I view, my book Thursday is the New Friday as being a menu that’s walking you through how to get to the four-day work week. This is all a menu. You are a smart individual that went to grad school and may have a PhD and you’ve got your own business and all these things. Take this as menu items that you can try, you can adapt, you can experiment with. That’s the part of the brain that oftentimes we just want this prescription to say this is what you’re supposed to do, but we are past that industrialist thinking. We are moving into more of an organism and evolutionary thinking in how we run our businesses.

So I want to give you a couple options if you’re ready to level up. So if you are just starting a practice or if you have not made your first hire, Next Level Practice is the membership community for you. Next Level Practice opens on November 8th for our final cohort of 2021. Over at practiceofthepractice.com/invite, you can be on that early bird list. You’ll get emails, prepping you and answering your questions and sharing with you how you can sign up when those doors open. If you’re a little more advanced or maybe you want more handhold and you want Whitney or LaToya, Alison, or me to do individual consulting with you, maybe you want our team to help you start a podcast. Maybe you’re just not sure what you need. Head on over to practiceofthepractice.com/apply. We have a whole decision making matrix there that will help walk you through kind of what we recommend as your next steps. So again, that’s practiceofthepractice.com/apply.

And I’m so excited for this series where we are going back to these clients that I did consulting with earlier in the year, checking in with them and talking about their next steps. So make sure you check out all the rest of those that are coming up. We have, let see one and two, three, it looks like three more coming up ahead of us about, should I hire an assistant, should I start a group practice, how to attract my ideal client and some really great interviews and consulting coming up. So make sure you check those out.

Thank you for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing day. I’ll talk to you soon.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. We really like it. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.