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Org or email them partnerships at. Thank you life. Org thank you life healing through accessibility. Speaker UU 00:01:16 This is the. Joe Sanok 00:01:17 Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sandbox session number 1041. Joe Sanok 00:01:27 Welcome everybody. We are talking today all about gratitude, shaming and imposter syndrome and the common barriers to succeeding as a therapist. Hannah Rose is with us today and I am so excited about that. I’ll tell you about her in just a second. If you don’t know who I am, I’m Joe Santokh. I started practice with the practice now over a decade ago back in 2012, launched the podcast ten years ago in 2013 and we just passed 900 episodes. So have been doing this for a bit. I’ve interviewed tons of people, you know, over 900 people. At this point. We get about 70,000 lessons a month on the practice of the Practice podcast, so that’s a great resource for you if you’re looking for a free content that we put out at least twice a week in 2022, we did four episodes a week, and in late 2023, we’re going to switch back to three episodes a week. So trying a lot of just ways to give you free content. I had a practice until 2019 when I sold that and that group practice, I had 13 people, but just realized I love doing this consulting work. Joe Sanok 00:02:26 I love learning about business and helping people on a national and international scale. That just really was what led me up. So I wanted to put all of my energy into that and sold it to one of my clinicians who actually just, recently joined the practice of the practice team. She has grown that to a 40 plus person, practice three locations. She’s just killing it. I also have two daughters, one in middle school, one in elementary. We have tons of fun together. you know, it’s all about playdates and volleyball and being outside and playing board games on the weekend and evenings. And so we have a very active life with the three of us. but we have Hannah Rose with us today. Hannah is the owner and founder and clinical director of Rose wellness, a fully virtual group. let me just let these folks in real quick. So here we go. The offers mental health counseling and business consulting in Baltimore, Maryland. After receiving her Ms. in clinical mental health counseling from Johns Hopkins in 2015. Joe Sanok 00:03:23 Hannah almost burned out over the next few years working in addiction treatment. So we are going to learn more about Hannah’s story. Hannah is going to be sharing with us. Hannah, welcome to Level Up Week. So glad that you are here today. Hannah Rose 00:03:34 Hi! It’s so great to be here. It’s such an honor. I feel like practice of the practice has helped me so much. So yeah, it’s great to be here. Joe Sanok 00:03:41 Yeah, I’m really glad to have you here. And, is that a five string ukulele in the background? Hannah Rose 00:03:46 There it is. Yeah, we’ve got a lot going on here. We also have Star Wars puzzles for my Covid era. Yeah. Joe Sanok 00:03:52 My daughter wore a Star Wars sweatshirt this morning to to third grade in my heart was just alive. Hannah Rose 00:03:58 Mazing. Yeah. This is just my my self-care. Joe Sanok 00:04:01 I love that I was just watching one of the documentaries about Star Wars that’s on Disney+ and seeing when they were, filming, in Northern Africa and just how hot it was. Joe Sanok 00:04:11 It’s just like, Holy cow. So. New appreciation for for the series. So cool. Well, I’m going to let you take it over from here. I’m going to turn my video and sound off so that you can dive right in. And then I’m going to talk a little bit about our membership communities in the middle. And then we’ll do some Q&A. So, take the floor Hannah. Hannah Rose 00:04:29 Great. Thanks so much, Joe. So, like Joe said, my name is Hannah Rose. I’m in Baltimore City, Maryland. what else is important about me? I got my master’s in clinical mental health counseling at Hopkins in 2015, and I had done my undergraduate at Goucher College, which is a tiny liberal arts school in Maryland, graduated in 2012. And I had all these ideas of what I wanted to do and what that would look like and how I would feel, as I’m sure some of you can relate to. And I have this on Gallery View, so I can just look at who’s joining. Hannah Rose 00:05:04 And some people from my life are joining that are not therapists, which is nice but welcome. So I really wanted to talk about barriers to succeeding as a therapist. And I am a younger therapist. And I was just telling Joe before I got on that. Ironically, or maybe not. So ironically, I was experiencing so much imposter syndrome right before this started, and I think that’s great. And I want to essentially just lean into that and talk about the experience of imposter syndrome, especially in the field of therapy, as well as gratitude shaming, which is a term that I had coined not officially by any means a couple of years ago. after I’d gotten my master’s, I had been working in the field for a bit, and I’m also in recovery. I’m in 12 step fellowships and in recovery. This idea of gratitude and an attitude of gratitude is so grounding and so lifesaving. But I’ve also seen it used inadvertently shaming Lee. That word, we’ll just make it just says Hannah Rose joint, which is interesting because I’m here. Hannah Rose 00:06:10 So I’m having a little bit of a weird experience there. So gratitude shaming and imposter syndrome. so a little bit about my experience. So after I graduated from Hopkins, I never wanted to work in the addiction field. As someone in recovery myself, I thought that would be working far too close to home. But of course, the universe had other ideas, and my practicum and then my internship were both at, substance use treatment centers. And first it was IOPs, intensive outpatient. And then I switched to an inpatient treatment center here in Maryland, which I worked at for about four and a half years. And burnout was so real for me. And I really want to talk about burnout. And a lot of us know, you know, what those burnout characteristics feel like. You know, for me, it’s compassion fatigue. First and foremost, when I’m sitting in a session face to face or virtually with a client or in group counseling. And I’m struggling to tap into genuine, authentic compassion. And I may even be experiencing internal eye rolls that is not coming from my authentic self, that is coming from burnout, that is coming from working myself too hard. Hannah Rose 00:07:23 And after a few years of being in one of the most high intensity environments clinically, where there was so much death, both personally and professionally, like I mentioned, being in recovery and working in recovery and treatment centers was so much, and I found myself shutting down. And there were three things that I learned in graduate school that really stuck with me. Really. It was one thing, but three factors. And I had a professor say, what makes a phenomenal and effective therapist more than anything else, more than training, even sometimes more than experience in the field are three factors the ability to have empathy, the ability to be authentic, and the ability to have unconditional positive regard. And for me, I didn’t I didn’t quite think about the authenticity piece at first. I thought about empathy and unconditional positive regard. So for me, with burnout, not being able to feel that unconditional positive regard was a piece of it, and that eventually led me to leave that secure, stable, safe job and take the leap into private practice in 2019, which was terrifying. Hannah Rose 00:08:32 And that’s where my imposter syndrome really took off. And for those of you that are unfamiliar with the term, although I doubt many of you are, most people at some point in their lives feel like, wow, if someone really knew me, they wouldn’t trust me with this or wow, why are people letting me have these responsibilities right? Like who? Let me do this and And it’s almost this feeling of being a fraud. And the more and more I’ve talked openly about that and connected with other people about that, the more I’ve realized so many of us experience imposter syndrome. And in the field of mental health, it’s interesting because for me, it felt magnified. You know, I had felt it a bit in school. Like, who let me into Johns Hopkins? Who who said I was good enough, right. There were all these shame narratives that I wasn’t quite aware of. And for mental health practitioners, when we are in the business of ideally not giving advice, but being on the front row of someone’s most personal experiences and stories and traumas and vulnerabilities, and they’re looking to us to help them write, to guide them, to ask the right questions, if those exist. Hannah Rose 00:09:41 And I felt like if my life isn’t perfect, which if you’ve been in this field for a while, you may laugh at that. Who am I to be able to be a therapist, right? Who am I to essentially be in the position to be trusted with someone’s innermost experiences? And I think that’s a huge barrier to clinicians starting their own private practices. And so for me, Hannah Rose, geez, that is not Hannah Rose. That is a friend that is on zoom right now. For me, it was noticing imposter syndrome, identifying it for what it was, fear based in shame, shame narratives all being rooted in scarcity. I’m not old enough. It was a big one for me. Successful enough, experienced enough. I don’t have enough letters after my name. I only have a master’s and not a PhD. I mean, we can do this within our field, right? Look at the accolades of other clinicians and notice the imposter syndrome and say, wow, this is really uncomfortable. Hannah Rose 00:10:43 This is rooted in fear, and I’m going to take this leap anyway. the other piece, going back to that graduate school experience was being authentic, right? And for me, there were so many barriers also rooted in shame and fear of being authentic. How can I be an authentic therapist if I don’t not only know who I am, but am comfortable enough to be myself without fear of what anyone is going to think of me? and that was terrifying. So we’ve talked a bit about imposter syndrome. Joe told me I have until five minutes after the hour, and as you can probably already tell, I have so many things to say all of the time that I’m just trying to condense it. I also actively didn’t plan one thing for this, and I’d love to say that’s because I wanted to speak from my heart. And maybe that’s part of it. And another part of it was fear. And I don’t love planning. And so I was like, all right, I have these general topics that I’m so passionate about. Hannah Rose 00:11:38 I’m just going to start speaking and see where that goes and answer questions. so impostor syndrome navigating that, I think for newer clinicians or more experienced clinicians who are venturing into a new part of their career or starting a private practice, in my opinion, an experience almost welcoming, oh, imposter syndrome, there you are right. I would feel so not human if I didn’t experience that very human fear and use it to connect with others rather than have maybe an inauthentic air of professional malady. I’m not sure if that’s a word pretend to be something that I’m not. You know, I joked as soon as this started, you know, there are Star Wars puzzles in the back. I have all this stuff going on. When I first started private practice, my background was very sterile with my diploma, and that was partially because I was uncomfortable being myself and myself is loud and, energetic and really passionate about things. And what I found is that the more I started to let myself be who I am, the more I started connecting with clients, and in that word of mouth really got through. Hannah Rose 00:12:50 I didn’t do a ton of marketing, but my caseload became full pretty quickly, and about a year and a half into being in solo private practice, I decided I would take on a therapist or two so that I didn’t have to keep putting people on a waitlist. And again, imposter syndrome came right back. Imposter syndrome said, you can’t run a group practice. You can’t manage other people. Who are you to do this? And again, going back to I really love Brené Brown. just her writings and teachings on shame, fear and vulnerability. And instead of saying, yeah, who am I to do this? I said, I’m a person and I’m going to try. And the worst possible case scenario here is that I experience rejection. I experience failure, all things I’ve experienced before, both personally and professionally. And they’ve strengthened me. Not maybe in the moment they felt like absolute garbage. I’m gonna not swear. And, so I started hiring people and now it’s been, you know, 2019 with solo group practice, end of 2021, I rebranded to Rose wellness and started hiring therapists. Hannah Rose 00:14:01 And now we have 13 clinicians, not including myself. And it just keeps growing. And I have found that the biggest barrier along the way is my own self-talk. It’s my own. This is what it should look like. This is what others expect of me. Or if I’m this far into my career or this early into my career, I should have it together. And these shoulds. I think it was Albert Ellis who originally said don’t should on yourself, which I love. These shoulds really just keep me stuck. And so to me that goes hand in hand with gratitude shaming. Now, like I said, being in recovery gratitude is huge, right? An attitude of gratitude. I can easily, easily fall into fulfillment trap. You know, when I get this, then I’ll feel this way. If I manage to do this, then I will feel better. It’s very my state of being, being contingent on something external and any and all things that I have received or accomplished. The fulfillment trap is still there. Hannah Rose 00:15:02 There’s always more. And so what I found is that gratitude can really help with that. You know, I’m grateful for what I have today. I’m grateful for where I am today, even if it’s not exactly my plan now. Gratitude shaming, which I don’t think is spoken about too often, is when we inadvertently use gratitude to shame someone out of their emotional experience. And what that looks like is this I’m really stressed about work. I have a lot on my plate and I’m feeling like I can’t handle this. A gratitude shaming comment would be, well, you should be grateful you have a job. Woof! How many of you just show of hands? How many of you have ever been told something like that, or even said something like that? I know I have. Oh, you should be grateful x, y z. All right. You should be grateful. Yes. you know, I recently and I believe I can legally speak about this now. Caleb, can I legally speak about the thing that, you know, I’m going to speak about right now? I can maybe so recently, this year, I got the. Hannah Rose 00:16:06 Yes, you can from one of my trusted friends. Brando. Talk about imposter syndrome. Oh, my. So many of them are here. you know, I just, like, I didn’t really plan for this. I needed a show during Covid to take my mind away from work and work stress and life stress. And I started watching survivor. I decided to apply kind of as a joke, not expecting anything of it. And long story short, I went on. I went to Fiji for a month this year and competed on the reality show survivor, and it airs on Wednesday. And what that did was give me a lot of opportunities to look at a imposter syndrome. Who am I to compete on some really hardcore show? Be gratitude shaming? Well, you should be grateful you got this opportunity. The level of stress that I experienced, it was very cool. Yeah. And a lot of the people from the cast are here because they are my new family. but what that did. Hey, friends, what that did was really kick my butt into gear of needing to delegate responsibilities of the practice. Hannah Rose 00:17:12 Up until earlier this year, I was running back of house admin and, insurance billing. That’s what I told everyone on the cast I did for a living. I said, oh, I’m an I’m a medical biller because I know everything about insurance codes. I see you laughing because if you’re in practice and you don’t have a medical biller, it takes up a lot of time. And so I was doing everything myself, and I had one month notice to say, okay, in a month I’m going to be out of the country for a month with no contact with the outside world. How will this group practice with 13 permissions run? Because I won’t be there. And I felt like, well, I should be grateful for this opportunity and I should be grateful that I’m self-employed. But the stress was so real. And barring survivor and that whole experience, I think this notion of I shouldn’t feel pain or I shouldn’t feel stress, or I shouldn’t feel fear because I should feel grateful is shaming and damaging. Hannah Rose 00:18:12 Because what it does is leads us to minimize our emotional experience instead of say, wow, this is really valid that I’m experiencing this. And also it completely eclipses the fact that we can feel numerous things at once. I can be both stressed as all hell and very grateful for the opportunity to do what I do. And I don’t have to feel badly now if the first wound is feeling that stress or pain or fear, the second wound, which is almost always self-inflicted, is how we judge ourselves for feeling what we’re feeling. And there have been many times where I have been in some level of emotional pain, and I’ve said to myself, oh, you’re just ungrateful. And in hindsight, I’m able to look at that and say, that’s not that’s not true. It’s not all one thing, right? We don’t experience one emotion and that’s it. And it gets rid of everything else. It’s bringing it back to therapy and the therapeutic experience. What I have found is that to have this license, to be able to help others or to start a group practice and then hire people to help others, it It allows us to really lean into all of our own imperfections, because we can see where we are falling short. Hannah Rose 00:19:29 And I don’t know if any of you have had this experience, especially in the mental health field, but there are times where I’m going through something and then a client just happens to be going through the same thing, and I will hear the words come out of my mouth and I’ll think to myself, it’s actually really insightful. I should do that. I should apply that. And so it’s like putting this magnifying glass on our own imperfections and humanity. And for me, I think as a as a therapist and as someone who has felt extremely isolated in that experience, connecting with other people in the field and then just connecting with other humans is huge in recovery circles. I think this notion that connection is the antidote to so much is massive. And and for me, I think, noticing again, going back to imposter syndrome, really the first step of this process is identifying what activates that imposter syndrome. And for me, it’s very much, or it used to be when I felt condescended. I used to say like, my biggest trigger is narcissists or people who talk down to me. Hannah Rose 00:20:34 And I realized over time that they have nothing to do with it. It’s my own insecurities and things that I don’t feel grounded in. When those things are potentially brought to the surface, I immediately would get defensive and say, oh, it’s about that person. And the more I was able to really identify what are my emotional triggers and then really dive deeper into where that comes from. The less anything external has the capacity to rock my foundation of self. Now, that’s true for clients. That’s true in terms of how clients feel about me or if they drop out of therapy. It’s true for other therapists. It’s true for friends. It’s true for family. It’s true for the 10 million people that are going to watch survivor and judge me. Just because that’s what people do with reality shows, is that all I can do is what feels right in my gut. And sometimes it’s not going to be a popular thing. And sometimes that means when someone says to me, well, you should just be grateful. Hannah Rose 00:21:34 I don’t have to say that’s gratitude shaming. And here’s why that’s really unhelpful. I can just I see where they’re coming from. I can have my generous assumptions of others that people mean well, I choose to believe that. But I can make a mental note. Is it because I’m ungrateful? No it’s not. It’s because I’m human and I’m having this very human experience. So I’m all over the place because I just thought I could go with it. so coming back to what the topics of the whole thing was gratitude shaming and imposter syndrome. So with gratitude shaming, I really invite everyone that’s listening, whether you’re on Facebook Live or on zoom, or you’re going to watch this later to try to notice where you may experience that or inadvertently bring that into your relationships with others. And, you know, it was really tough for me to look at how often I would choose gratitude, shaming or sympathy over empathy. But at least you are employable, you know, at least you got this opportunity for nine. Hannah Rose 00:22:34 Brown says in one of her short videos. any sentence that begins with at least is not rooted in empathy. And what we do is we try to silver line each other’s experiences. Now I’m just ripping off Brené Brown at this point, but I’ll put my own spin on it. She says. Holding space for someone else’s pain is inherently vulnerable. It’s so vulnerable, and vulnerability is uncomfortable. And so many of us go to this place of, well, let me make you feel better, you know, and how often in our in our personal relationships do we say or are we told, I don’t want you to fix it. I just want you to listen. Right. And as therapists and people in the mental health field, we know that active listening, holding space, you know, can you imagine a client saying something really painful to you and you saying, well, you know, at least you’re in therapy now. And listen, maybe you would say that I’m sorry if this is, offensive to you in any way, but I personally would never say that, like, well, let’s just look at the bright side, like, no, let’s acknowledge the complete array of human emotion. Hannah Rose 00:23:35 And we can acknowledge strength and resilience and protective mechanisms, but also create space to feel that pain, that fear, that anger. Now, I don’t know if you’re anything like this, but especially the first few years of my therapeutic practice, both being in therapy and being a therapist, I noticed such discrepancies in the ways that I was able to have empathy and compassion for my clients, but how that differed in my interpersonal relationships, and how I may not hold the same space and I may jump to gratitude shaming. I may jump to silver lining someone’s experience. And it was really humbling to look at what lessons can I learn from the therapeutic experience? Not surprising friends and family by any means, but where am I not practicing what I preach? And that cognitive dissonance really fueled imposter syndrome for me. And so going back to authenticity, I am and I think anyone that knows me personally, whether you were on a Fijian island without food and water with me, or you are a colleague, or you are a friend who’s just supporting me, my affect is pretty much the same in all of those situations. Hannah Rose 00:24:48 And for me personally, this is what has worked. I have found that the more barriers that I can deconstruct in between me and how I really feel, who I really am. The more I’m able to live my life in a state of congruence. Now, obviously boundaries are incredibly important, and having boundaries with clients and different boundaries and different scenarios, without a doubt. But if the person that I am at work is inherently different in all ways, then the person I am in my relationship at home, that’s going to throw me into a state of cognitive dissonance. You know, my my essence, my vibe is essentially the same wherever I go. And that’s something I really, really try to hold on to no matter what. and it helps to limit imposter syndrome with imposter syndrome. Also noticing that almost everything comes back to shame and shame. Just a quick recap. Shame where guilt is. I feel badly about this and it can actually be motivating for growth and change. Shame is I am bad, I am not enough. Hannah Rose 00:25:54 Shame is rooted in scarcity, so I am not blank enough. That’s shame. And for me, identifying my shame narratives is huge because those shame narratives will manifest in all areas of my life whenever I do, like corporate trainings. Okay, I’ve done like three, but still, when I have done corporate trainings for a clinical team at a treatment center, often I go in and I it’s almost like pulling the rug out from under them, which is kind of messed up. a lot of times I, you know, let’s say the topic is like emotional sobriety. Most clinicians think I’m going to be talking about better ways to treat their clients and modalities and techniques. And I always flip the script and I’m like, no, we’re going to be focusing on you all. And I think keeping the focus on the therapist, the person that is providing the treatment in any capacity is huge because I was taught, if I don’t heal and start to heal and begin that process of healing my own wounds, I will experience counter transference in a way that can be potentially harmful to my client. Hannah Rose 00:27:04 I will project and leak out all of my own stuff onto my clients. I need to take care of me first. And we all know, right? Like the airplane, put the oxygen mask on yourself before putting it on anyone else. And that’s what led me to essentially quit again, my very secure treatment center job because I couldn’t keep working in the addiction field full time. I wanted to work for myself, a really big piece of me, starting my own private practice so that I could sleep later, I think, I’m not going to lie. And I remember feeling imposter syndrome about that. Like. Like I should just be a morning person. And at a certain point I was like, or, you know, I’m going to change my situation. And it has helped. But like listening to that, as silly and trivial as it sounds like, I’m still not a morning person. I mean, I did wake up around eight today, which I will consider a win, but instead of trying to force myself to be something that I’m not, can I find ways to leap into eights? Definitely early. Hannah Rose 00:28:03 Thank you Eric, thank you. Can I find ways to lean into my authentic self? And I feel very privileged and lucky to be able to do that. But as people point out to me all the time, and this is the last thing I’ll say about gratitude, shaming and imposter syndrome, I often feel not undeserving to an extent, but I can feel guilty that I have my own practice, that I’m able to sleep late, that my quality of life is where it is, and I’m constantly reminded by my therapist special shout out I don’t think she’ll ever watch this because she has like, boundaries. and friends and my fiance that Hannah, you have gotten to where you are today because of the work that you have put in, and it’s hard for me to accept sometimes when I see so many colleagues who are overworked, underpaid, completely burnt out, and I feel like, why do I get to have a quality of life that I love, that I love my my friend called it the slow life. Hannah Rose 00:29:00 The slow life. Asia. What did you call it? The soft life. Okay, well, I think she called it the soft life. And that is what I choose to live. And, you know, I would never tell someone. You should stick it out. If you want to prove something to yourself, by all means, go for it. But for me, can I listen to my gut? And can I be grateful for what I have and who I am? And that doesn’t mean I’m not going to feel pain today. And so if you are working at an agency and you’re burnt out, I’ve been there, I hear you, I’m happy to talk to you about that. If you’re in your own private practice, you’re killing it and you love it. Awesome. I don’t know if any of you have struggled with feeling like, again, it’s not fully undeserving, but I do think there’s remnants of shame there for me where it’s almost survivor’s guilt, no pun intended, of why do I get to have this life that I truly want to be a part of? and for me, I think seeking outside sources, like, again, when I found Brené Brown, that was pretty life changing in 2015. Hannah Rose 00:30:01 And when I struggle with setting boundaries, I read the book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace. And it was life changing. And when I struggled with being addicted to my smartphone, I read how to break up with your phone and and I think there are so many resources available to us. and just noticing whatever guilt you may feel shame you may feel fear, you may feel it is normal. You are not alone. I don’t really know what I said for the last half an hour, but I do know that when this is over, I’m not going to be in my head thinking about what I said, how I sounded, if you liked it, I know that I showed up with my whole heart and spoke from the heart, and that’s really all that I can do. And I will say a lot of that work came from therapy. And so for me, last really great piece of advice I ever got was, hey, if you’re going to be a therapist, you best be in your own therapy. Hannah Rose 00:30:50 And I truly believe that it’s unethical to be a therapist and not have done your own therapeutic work. And that’s a hot take. But Hannah Rose, so it’s 3:00 and it says that there are 13 chaps. So I’m going to look at them and I will answer questions and or Joe will moderate. I have no idea what happens next. Joe Sanok 00:31:18 Whatever stage your practice is at, we know using great resources with patients is crucial to helping them get better faster. As a practice owner, I never compromised on this, but finding the right materials was a constant challenge. It’s so time consuming, especially with everything else to juggle. That’s why I recommend Psychology Tools, an online library of over 500 evidence based resources for whatever problems your clients are facing. Choose practical exercises, handouts, and worksheets, audio therapy, treatment manuals, and loads more. They’re even available in multiple languages and formats developed by highly qualified psychologists. Resources can be downloaded with therapist guidance to enhance skills or client guidance, helping patients make the most of each tool. Joe Sanok 00:32:06 It’s a game changer for saving time when delivering more effective therapy, as well as a great resource, library Psychology Tools is also a smart business tool, boosting productivity and efficiency. Focus on growing your practice while your team feels better prepared for every session. It’s a win win for you and for me and for the client. Visit Psychology tools.com/joe to find out more. Use Code Joe 24 for 20% off new subscriptions. Again that psychology tools. Com slash Joe to find out more. All right well let me add my spotlight in here. That was that was killer. I’m gonna I’m talk a little bit of our our membership communities. And then we’re going to dive into questions. So get those questions coming in. if you want to talk back and forth. maybe you have a question where you want to dig in a little bit more. We’re going to have plenty of time for that. So just virtually raise your hand. That tells us that you want us to bring you on screen and go back and forth. Joe Sanok 00:33:10 if you just have a quick question like some of you do in the chat, just drop that in there. But again, if you want to dig in and, have a little bit of back and forth. We had that earlier today and our very first session, we were talking about some money shame issues and had some laser coaching, and it was incredible. The individual that did that was just like so awesome. And those of you that have to take off, thank you so much for hanging out. All right, Hannah, we’ve got some chat things coming in right here. Let’s see. I saw some of the top that we didn’t cover. how would you say it’s best, to help new therapists or employees that have imposter syndrome? Hannah Rose 00:33:46 Great question. Elisa. Yeah. Great question. I feel like a lot of times people don’t necessarily have or know that it’s okay to use that kind of vocabulary, especially in a work setting and using that language and broaching it before your employees or colleagues bring it up. Hannah Rose 00:34:04 I think it’s super helpful normalizing. Right. And so if you have employees or therapists that you’ve hired or colleagues that you either assume might be experiencing that, or you just want to broach it and say, hey, I know this is something I’ve experienced or something I still experience today. Have you experienced that at all? Where does that come up for you? Now I’m a licensed clinical supervisor and I provide supervision to the Lgtbq, the licensed graduate professional counselors, the provisionally licensed counselors at my practice. And I approach that with them. And oftentimes the responses, oh my God, I’m so glad you brought that up. I didn’t want to because I don’t want you to think I don’t know what I’m doing, etc. and so there’s often fear and shame blocking us from even talking about imposter syndrome. And so as an employer or a manager, I think bringing it up first and just knowing, hey, this is safe on the table to meet clinical supervision is not just about let’s very rote go through your cases. Hannah Rose 00:34:59 It’s let’s talk about how you’re doing with them, how you’re feeling about being a therapist. What is this like for you? And I love that. I live. Joe Sanok 00:35:05 For that. So awesome. Next question. When impostor syndrome comes up internally, what are some good practices to combat that? Hannah Rose 00:35:12 so first and foremost, identifying it, right, not just running with it. If any of you are familiar with rational emotive behavior therapy, you know, repeat again, throw it back to Albert Ellis. Think knowing there’s the activating event and then it feels like the belief comes really quickly thereafter. So it goes activating event belief consequence. And if the activating event is a client drops out of therapy or says, hey, I don’t think this is a good fit, the belief is I’m a bad therapist. I have no idea what I’m doing. The consequence is then likely going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, fear, imposter syndrome, etc. so according to Rational emotive behaviour therapy, we can dispute that core irrational belief imposter syndrome is a core irrational belief. Hannah Rose 00:35:56 So identifying that it’s there, noticing it, validating and normalizing your own experience, and ideally talking with other people about it. That’s a succinct as I can make that answer. Joe Sanok 00:36:06 Oh so good. Now for you personally, do you have any habits that help you stay grounded and realized while well, I’m overthinking this. And so, sure, we have, like, psychological symptoms, but are there or systems are there things that you think, man, for me, I just need to, like, make a smoothie or like like things like that. Hannah Rose 00:36:24 Yes. Yes. I actually just did this podcast. and someone asked me the same thing. He said, the host, he said, how do you essentially take care of yourself? And, and to me, dealing with imposter syndrome, fear, etc. is all wrapped into taking care of myself. Moderating what media I consume is number one, I’m not going to make myself box about social media and how and like, I don’t have Instagram, I can’t. Hannah Rose 00:36:48 I’ve tried, just me personally, I understand for business it’s really, integral at times, but so I love reading, right? But I can’t always be reading non-fiction. Like really heavy therapy stuff or self-help. I go back and forth, so I read, like smutty fantasy books, and then I listen to nonfiction or domestic thrillers, and I kind of, you know, and if I’m watching a show, someone just asked me, oh, have you seen Dopesick? And have you seen painkiller? And these shows are phenomenal about drug addiction and recovery and the Sackler family. And and I have to check in with myself before watching that kind of media. I have to check in with myself before watching things that are going to essentially drain my cup as opposed to fill it. Joe Sanok 00:37:36 I’m with you. I feel like, especially when I was practicing therapy, I could not watch shows that reminded me of therapy. It’s like the closest I could get was like Extreme Home Makeover, where it’s like you’d hear their sappy story and I’d be crying in the first five minutes. Joe Sanok 00:37:49 But, yeah, I feel like consuming media, I think, is something that oftentimes we don’t talk about in therapy or as therapists and even just, you know, going into level up week, you know, every morning, you know, I walk my daughter to school, you know, I’m home by 9905. I’m not a morning person either. I’m with you. I’m like a teenager still. Like, given a lack of an alarm, I will sleep until like 11 every day, even if I go to bed at a reasonable time. but it’s like, you know, I’m home. And each morning it was a 10 a.m. kickoff for level up week. So I made sure I gave myself extra time. I didn’t want to be scrambling and kick off at 930. did meditation each morning, and then I didn’t check the news because it drives me bonkers. What’s going on? And, you know, we all have our political perspectives, but it’s like, there’s a lot that’s hitting the fan right now. Joe Sanok 00:38:33 And, I don’t check my co-parenting app with my ex because if I go into a webinar, I’ll pissed off. It’s going to it’s not going to help anything. And so that idea of protecting your brain when you’re doing things that are really important, I think is so key to making sure that we show up with our best selves and don’t overthink all of it. Hannah Rose 00:38:50 Absolutely. And I think we have to be vigilant about that. Again, I’m speaking to mental health professionals, but I think this is true for all humans. But again, if we’re showing up for others in this really vulnerable space, maybe even more so for us is vigilant. I want to be as vigilant about protecting myself, and that means setting boundaries where they need to be set right. Saying no to things, saying no to things is like my favorite. I mean, I’m, I’m a very extroverted introvert, so love my alone time being mindful about the media that I’m consuming, being mindful about what I’m consuming. Period. Right. Hannah Rose 00:39:22 Like this morning, I was like, you know what? I don’t want to make breakfast. I’m going to order a bagel and a muffin. And it was like, yes. And then I felt like my body was like, shutting down after. It was like rejecting everything I ate. And like, I’m not going to shame myself for eating. I love bagels, however, being mindful and making intentional choices, even if that means signing up for those consequences intentionally. And so really, going from almost a mindless autopilot of living life as a passive recipient to being much more awake and attuned, looking at our choices and how they impact us. Joe Sanok 00:39:56 So awesome. Well, we’ve torn through all the questions. so what encouragement, what mindset things, what activities? What would you leave people with? Hannah Rose 00:40:06 Oof, oh my gosh, I have so many things all the time. So I’m like, how do I get that’s it. And I always want to be like, just be yourself. But it’s not that easy, right? I would say. Hannah Rose 00:40:15 Going back to my favorite quote in the world, which is the poet Rumi is a quote that it says, your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it. And if you replace the word love with anything else, literally anything peace, serenity, friendship, connection, a partner, whatever your task is not to go out and find that thing. Your task is to look internally and say, what barriers have I built or have been built in me? Well, how. Joe Sanok 00:40:44 Did that happen? Hannah Rose 00:40:45 I don’t know how that just happened. It keeps happening on my zoom. Joe Sanok 00:40:48 Whoa. It must be on the the the live. Hannah Rose 00:40:52 So weird. So, So. Yeah. So. So look inward. That’s my my parting words. And we have there are so many tools to deconstruct our own internal barriers, but everything you’re looking for is in you already. I believe that to be true. Joe Sanok 00:41:06 So awesome. Thank you everyone that came to this final session of Level Up Week. Joe Sanok 00:41:11 I couldn’t think of a better way to land it. You know, just being grounded in who we are, allowing ourselves to feel that, to step into not just better business, but just better humanity, better life, creating the life that we want while still serving the people that really need our help. I couldn’t think of a better way to end it. Hannah, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for letting us into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing rest of your week and weekend, everybody. And thanks again, Hannah, for being a part of the show today and the webinar today. Bye everybody. We could not do this show without our sponsors. And today’s sponsor is Psychology Tools. It is what I wish I had when I was in practice. There were times when I just wanted to have resources, checklists, things that could be helpful for my clients to do between sessions. And I would look around the internet and just find different things. But Psychology Tools has a resource library that’s going to help you with whatever problems your clients are facing. Joe Sanok 00:42:17 Highly qualified psychologists put together these resources just for you to enhance skills and guide your clients better. Visit Psychology tools. Com forward slash Joe to find out more. Use code Joe 24 for 20% off new subscriptions. Again that psychology tools. Com slash Joe to find out more. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for that intro music, and this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.