Joe Sanok 00:00:00 What are you doing? October 1st through third. I want to hang out with you just south of Nashville, Tennessee. Down in Franklin. I’m going to be key noting the Mental Health Marketing Conference, and I would love for you to be there. We are also sponsoring the clinical track, where there are going to be tons of amazing trainings, all for you in private practice. This is the national gathering for marketers and clinicians in mental and behavioral health. You’re not going to want to miss this awesome conference. It’s the one conference I’m keynote ING this year. And you can read more over at MH marketing. Org. Also, Steve over at Mental Health Marketing has given 25% off to any practice of the practice. Listeners that want to come to this, whether you’re coming in person or online, you’re going to want to use promo Code Joe at checkout to get 25% off. I would love for you to come in person for my closing keynote on Thursday, October 3rd at the Mental Health Marketing Conference. But if you can come online, that works as well. Joe Sanok 00:00:56 Can’t wait to hang out with you in Tennessee. Again, that’s MH marketing. Org and use promo code Joe at checkout to hang out with me October 1st through third, 2024. Speaker UU 00:01:15 This is the practice of. Joe Sanok 00:01:17 The Practice podcast with Joe Sarna, session number 1030. Welcome. So all week this week we are covering leveling up. So we are talking all about how do you have a thriving practice that you absolutely love. So today we’re starting with starting a private practice. Like what does that look like. We’re going to be talking about our panel in just a second I’m going to introduce them. But we’ve got a ton of people that are coming in right now. So I want to introduce you to our panel today. first we have Carol Ryan, and I’m going to I don’t want to miss anything. I’ve been, you know, in these people’s lives for a while, but, you know, there’s so many things about them that, you know, you forget just how amazing they are. So Carol opened Connections Counseling LLC in October of 2020. Joe Sanok 00:02:06 Despite starting during the Covid pandemic, her client schedule was full 60 days after opening. Carol’s assertive is certified in eMDR, somatic movement, yoga and trauma treatment. Beside her specialties in addiction and trauma, Carol is considered a top expert on missing and exploited children. She is working to rebrand her business as somatic Interventions, emphasizing the body’s role in mental health. care. Welcome to the panel today. Speaker 2 00:02:31 Hi. Thank you for having me. I’m excited. Joe Sanok 00:02:33 We also have a lease. Robinson at Lease is a licensed clinical social worker and practice owner with a decade of experience providing counseling and psychotherapy services to clients. In 2023, at least decided to open her practice mindful care, therapy and consultation to have more autonomy and flexibility in service delivery to best support the clients she works with. Elise, welcome to the panel. Really excited to have you here today. Speaker 2 00:02:59 Thanks so much. Joe Sanok 00:03:01 And we have Eric Reiner. Eric is a therapist in the greater Boston area. Since graduating with his MSW in 2015, Eric has been a therapist at a community mental health clinic and then a high school social worker before launching his private practice in August of 2023. Joe Sanok 00:03:16 Eric works with teenagers through older adults seeking therapy related to grief, substance use, LGBTQ+ identity, and having experienced domestic violence. Eric, welcome to the panel. So glad that you’re here today. Speaker 3 00:03:30 Thanks, Joe. Happy to be here. Joe Sanok 00:03:31 Yeah, I am going to stop my share now and just get our panelists up and all of you that are joining us. Welcome. We are so glad to have you here. I am going to, just request it for now. You keep yourselves muted. We are going to have times for questions. you’re welcome to turn your video on if you want to, or if you don’t want to, and, GED, just so you know, we can see your desk and if you want us to see that, awesome. And if not, then just wanted to let you know, to flip that camera around. Well, why don’t we just start with Carol? so you’ve had a practice since 2020? the other two of you started in 2023. Let’s go back to when each of you started your practice. Joe Sanok 00:04:11 And what kind of go through, like Carol, for you, what was kind of the impetus for starting your practice? Speaker 2 00:04:19 kind of like what Alice said about trying to find an environment that allowed you to do the kind of therapy that felt right. I was in a wonderful clinic working with wonderful therapists, but they had a style that was very confining to me and I wanted to be more spontaneous, more body based, more responsive. And it just got so that it was an incompatibility. And so I had to make a decision. And I think even though I was like, I don’t know what I’m doing, I didn’t give it ten, ten minutes. Thought it was, let’s do this or die. And so I just jumped into the water. Joe Sanok 00:05:00 Wow, wow. Elise, what about you? When did you think you know what? Like I got to do this. Speaker 4 00:05:07 So it was similar to Carol. I was like, I, I can’t I can’t do this anymore. I was working really hard in places that didn’t deliver care the way I thought I wanted to. Speaker 4 00:05:18 I felt I needed to, and so it was. I accept continuing to do this, or I go ahead and I figure this thing out. And so I jumped, two feet in the deep end as well. Joe Sanok 00:05:30 That’s awesome. those of you that are watching, if you resonate with that, if you’re like, that’s where I’m at right now, if you’re like, oh, like, if you have any encouragement, like, good for you, feel free as we go to drop comments If you have specific questions for specific people, please say their name and then we will have lots of time for you to ask questions. Now, Eric, tell us about your decision to to jump into private practice. Speaker 3 00:05:54 Sure. Yeah. I mean, I loved the work of the outpatient clinic, loved the work at the high school, but there were some policy changes at the high school that just weren’t a fit. And I’ve kind of been really missing the longer term in depth work of the outpatient clinic. And so the opportunity to get back to that longer term work, but feel like I could take time off when I wanted to, I had kind of the flexibility to set the policies that worked for me was really appealing. Speaker 3 00:06:17 So yeah, that’s for me. Joe Sanok 00:06:20 Yeah. Awesome. Now, I’m not going to have each of you answer every single question, because then we’d be here for like five hours. So, Elise, what were some of your very first steps in regards to getting started when you were thinking, okay, I gotta get started here. I gotta focus on some things. Like, how did you know what to do first when you were starting your practice? Speaker 4 00:06:39 So I was working full time, and I knew that I needed to get the framework done. Before I left my position. I gave notice all that type of stuff so that I could really just start working in the practice when I was available to work in it. So I decided to do some certifications, really do some branding stuff so that the marketing was a little bit easier. did some of those trainings, did the LLC, you know, looked at my state, figured out kind of the the nitty gritty, really annoying stuff, but and got that taken care of so that, you know, when I gave notice I was officially seeing clients at that point, to kind of transition that way. Speaker 4 00:07:18 So I took care of the stuff that you don’t want to think about, because once you start seeing clients, you don’t want to think about it even more. Joe Sanok 00:07:24 Yeah. So you really got that infrastructure going right at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Carol, for you, what was maybe one of the unexpected things that happened, whether it was good or bad at the beginning. Like what surprised you in that first, say, six months of starting a practice? Speaker 2 00:07:41 for me, I didn’t have time to do the infrastructure I left abruptly. It was, not an ideal way of of departing. There was a lot of, like, our feelings and. Yeah. Ouch, ouch, ouch. I knew I was right, darn it. I’m going to do this. And I went in blind. It’s kind of like jumping off a cliff. and what I was, what I was relieved with was no matter what, no matter what, I didn’t know. My clinical skills carried me. And, And I was full right away. Speaker 2 00:08:17 I left with, 40 of my own clients. And then within a month, I had up to 60. And, so I got busy first. And that created a little calamity. And that’s what led me into practice. The practice is I. am like, I’m good as a as a clinician, but I’m not good as a business person. And I when you said, what’s the preparation? One of the things for me was to realize what I knew and what I didn’t know. And just like in a clinical sense, if I want to like, become more adept at internal family systems, I go to trainings, I get supervision. Well, I needed a training and supervision program for business. So that’s. That’s why that’s how I started. I did it backward, but at least I’m getting there. Joe Sanok 00:09:01 so, Eric, I’m interested in for you. What were some things that really helped you get your first clients? You know, going from 0 to 1 or, you know, 1 to 2. Joe Sanok 00:09:10 It’s always the hardest. you know, you know, you and Elise just started, like, a year ago. so you’re, like, brand new in it. And I know you guys are doing great. Like, what helped you go from 0 to 1, 1 to 2 and really get that going? Speaker 3 00:09:22 I think those first couple clients for me were through kind of networking connections. One of them was a therapist, friend of a therapist, friend of mine, like the person I asked, oh, and how’d you hear about me? They mentioned someone I didn’t know. It’s like, great, awesome. So glad you’re here. And then a few weeks later, this friend of mine was like, oh yeah, by the way, I gave your name to this friend. So yeah, a lot of the early ones were through networking. I was on a bunch of directories then with some nonprofit matching services in the area. and those have led to some clients over time. But initially it was just the kind of the network sort of random connections. Speaker 3 00:10:01 I did a lot of zoom, kind of coffees with folks early on to just hear about their practices, hear what was working for them, and kind of connect for referrals. And it really helped. Joe Sanok 00:10:12 We got some great comments coming in. I want to just spotlight a couple of them. Bernie said I also knew group practice wasn’t going to work for me. So glad to be here. You know Bernie, I was at 1099, for a group practice. It was a great group practice. In fact, I’ve interviewed Larry Behar multiple times on this show, but I knew I wanted to be the one that was in charge of kind of my direction. So I get that Bernie and then Clara or Clara says, Carol, don’t judge yourself by saying that quote, I did it backward and apologizing for your approach, and none of us should ever feel like there is a backwards or wrong way to do it. We all have unique situations and needs and life places we are in. Great encouragement coming in. Joe Sanok 00:10:50 I want to ask the three of you, and we’re going to take some some questions as they come in as well. So feel free to start dropping some questions if you have questions for individuals, I want each of you to just talk through, if you could go back to you, say, six months or a year before you started your practice, like really getting that mind of the worries, the anxiety where a lot of the people that are tuning in today might be and compare that to where you’re at now. Like, what advice would you give yourself before you started a practice? Like how would you think through it? Like what encouragement would you give yourself? What do you wish you knew? so, Eric, since you’re on the spotlight right now, I’ll just leave you on here. what do you what do you wish you had known? Like, what would you tell yourself? Speaker 3 00:11:32 Oh, that’s a good one. I mean, I think I knew I would eventually get full, which I am, and I’ve been full for the last month, but I think it’s it still feels different. Speaker 3 00:11:44 Like actually feeling it, but just knowing like, hey, I talked to lots of people who got full, you know, varying rates, varying kind of structures of insurance, private pay and stuff, but just really knowing, like, okay, it’s going to happen if I kind of put in the time and the work and sort of feeling that confidence because it was like I knew it would happen. And then it started really slow for a couple months before getting really busy. And so I think, I think keeping that faith, yeah, I think and there are a couple areas like Google ads where I would have kind of hired out rather than doing it myself. That’s another kind of talk a. Joe Sanok 00:12:20 Little bit more about that. Like, you know, because I think a lot of people have that kind of bootstrap mentality. I was guilty of that for years. And, it was like, well, if I can do it for free, why would I not take out my own garbage or answer my own phones or, you know, do my own Google ads? Speaker 3 00:12:34 Yeah, I mean, I think for so many things, like the DIY thing worked great for me, but that was one where it was like, okay, I figured out how to do it. Speaker 3 00:12:41 I did some research, put a ton of time into it and a fair amount of money and just got the got clicks, but no clients. And then when I heard from folks who were hiring companies to do it, I was like, oh, they’re doing it a lot more efficiently. And they kind of have the spigot of referrals. They could turn on and off that way. And so I think it was one of those things where just there’s so much technical knowhow. and so even though I kind of structured the ads, I thought with wordings that I liked and stuff, I think if I’d kind of had someone who just did that all the time, I probably could have paid less in an ad spend, plus their fee and gotten a better result. Joe Sanok 00:13:20 Yeah, yeah. Elise, what about you? What would you tell your former self? Speaker 4 00:13:26 Yeah. Eric took the words right out of my mouth, as usual. He, he spot on like it happens. And it does not feel that way. Speaker 4 00:13:33 You took this massive jump. You’re taking a risk, and it feels very time sensitive. I started mine in May of 2023, so that was a risky time going into summer, which is a little bit of a slower season. and it happens. I got those first clients in similar ways, you know, high effort networking. just kind of putting yourself out there. But it having the patience is is worth it. I think you also don’t have to do all the things right. You kind of throw yourself into spaces. Of all the therapists trying to do this, all the therapists trying to make it. and there’s a lot of ways that you can, and not all of those ways are for everybody. You don’t have to spend your time doing things that aren’t why you’re here today, right? That there are things that work for everybody. You get to make your time the way you want to make your time. That’s why you took the scary jump. That’s why you’re thinking about doing this for you. Speaker 4 00:14:27 And so giving myself the permission a little earlier, similar to like, I can outsource things that I just don’t want to do, nor can I do, is even if I can, I don’t have to. You know, I’m not on social media because I, I don’t want to be. I can’t handle that. Could I get clients that way? Sure. and it’s just a decision I made not to use my time like that, but I went through months of guilt and feeling like I should. And should I figure this out? that I could have used that time elsewhere. That would have been more productive for me. Joe Sanok 00:14:55 Now, talk a little bit more about that decision, because I think a lot of people, you know, that have newer practices feel the pressure of a lot of shoulds, like, I should have a website, I should be working at SEO, it should be on social media, I should like there’s the list of everything that you should do. And you decided not to be on social media. Joe Sanok 00:15:10 Like I’ll talk through that process of you said you felt guilty for months and then you’ve landed in sound pretty self-assured at this point. Speaker 4 00:15:17 Yeah. So I knew I kind of looked at my time as though I’m here to see clients. Right. That’s going to be the priority. And I’m not full right now, but one day I will be. What’s the first thing I’m not going to want to be doing anymore? What’s the first thing that’s going to go? The first thing that I’m going to slack off on. And if I’m building my practice that way, I actually can’t slack off on that anymore. And social media was number one thing. As soon as I don’t have to, I knew I was going to start procrastinating. I wasn’t going to do it. I know myself it wasn’t going to happen. And so instead, I looked at the avenues that I did enjoy more and a combination of things that are short term and long term. Right. I have this networking meeting. It might take nine months for me to get this referral from somebody, right? That might not be immediate. Speaker 4 00:16:01 kind of mixing in those things of knowing, how do I want to spend my time? You don’t make your own schedule and make this scary jump to fill 20 hours of your week doing things you don’t want to do, right? Joe Sanok 00:16:12 So I just want to underline that we didn’t make this jump to spend 20 hours a week doing what we don’t want to do. I think also what I’ve noticed, and I talk about this with a lot of my consulting clients and also in next level practice, is when you do marketing that’s authentic to you that you want to keep doing more of. You attract people that like that kind of marketing. So you might be super into like a 5000 word blog post that’s such a deep dive into like, seasonal depression and you just love it. The people that are going to resonate with that are people that love 5000 word like, you know, New York Times articles or, you know, super, The New Yorker, like Deep Dive, the Atlantic type of stuff, like you’re going to attract that kind of person. Joe Sanok 00:16:49 Whereas if you were trying to be someone you’re not on social media, you get all these people that are like super into social media and it’s like, that’s probably not your ideal client. Like, so clients often look for a therapist that somewhat aligns. Not that you have to be just like your clients, but you know you want your marketing to truly represent yourself. And so if you’re not into social media, yeah, try the things that you love so much and do that to your fullest. And if that doesn’t work, then you can always choose to work on those other things. But, you know, it sounds like what you’re doing is working just great. Carol would love to hear from you. What would you go back and what would you kind of say to your former self? encouragement, advice, any of that? Speaker 2 00:17:27 Three things. Risks are worth it. I don’t have to do this alone. I can get, you know, when we when we have a soul practice, we feel alone. Speaker 2 00:17:38 But that doesn’t mean we have to do our things alone. And then, build an identity as a therapist. Come out and have your own thumbprint. Joe Sanok 00:17:48 Will you dig into each of those? Just a little bit more like how? How would you say people should think through each of those? Speaker 2 00:17:54 Well, when I, when I think of risks are worth it, that tells me that there will be risks there. There are going to be learning curves, some failures, some oh, gee, I didn’t know this would happen. Moments. and just to learn from it and, you know, I first thought. Clara, thank you so, so kind for those words. One of the things that being on practice or the practice has allowed me to do is speak honestly without apology. I did jump in. I do do it backwards. And that’s just the way it is for me, you know? and so it’s the same kind of thing is this risk is worth it? How am I going to learn? I got to just try, and then with that comes the understanding of of giving myself permission to be where I’m at and be vulnerable with that. Speaker 2 00:18:43 not doing it alone is I think that helps me with that risk, because I do. I’m risk averse because, oh my gosh, I don’t know anything about taxes. But when I remind myself, I can see, you know, and get advice from people who know way more than me and so I might not trust my own abilities because I’m aware of my my limitations, but I trust the people I work with. And then the building on identity. That’s been a big thing for me this year. It’s taken the whole year for me. But to find out, okay, I know I can do a lot of different things, but what do I want to do? What do I resonate with? What gives me joy and and not to be afraid of that. To to single yourself out. When I said bringing the body into therapy, there was a little bit of that. Oh, even my husband’s like, wait, you’re going to move into being a body worker? What do you do in yourself? And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Speaker 2 00:19:36 But I just, you know, but it took me a while to figure out how to integrate it. And once the longer I get, the more I do it, the more confident I am in who I am. So I don’t have to worry about competition. I don’t have to worry about narrowing my scope because I’m going to find the right person. Joe Sanok 00:19:53 So awesome. I love the Tupac reference in the chat. That’s just the way it is. So yeah. So Carol, talk a little bit about specifically your branding. So, you know, someone said around body work, oh, you’re going to be a body worker. How did you make sure that still it was clear to clients what they were getting? Because I do think that like I recently was on a pre consulting call with somebody, and you know, they did like drama therapy, but everything that they said was like, these people went to Juilliard, these things. And it was just like, wait, what am I getting here? And it was like a really good thing for that, that person to say, oh, I am making it sound like we’re doing some sort of like, just like acting classes, whereas it’s genuinely therapy. Joe Sanok 00:20:36 So like, how did you make sure that your branding was spot on, that people would know what they were getting? Like, what were just some techniques around your branding that helped you? Speaker 4 00:20:44 Well, I think the. Speaker 2 00:20:45 Branding came with the more I did it in my practice. So it’s like, okay, how does it look in my practice? My practice is primarily mental health care, you know, care. So if I’m dealing with a client and we’re let’s say the issue is substance use disorder, and we’re talking about, you know, drinking less. Well, if I’m, if I want to bring the body into therapy, how do I do that? That might be to say, well, what is when you talk about quitting drinking, where do you feel that in your body? I mean, you have thoughts of. Yeah, I should, but what what’s what’s happening here? Or when you drink, you know, it numbs you. What are you numbing from? Yeah. And so that’s where I kind of bring a more integrated approach. Speaker 2 00:21:29 So, so then on my, my branding, I want to be foremost a therapist because that’s my licensing. And then but I want to show how through images or even just the way I have my paperwork is showing that the body does, you know, it does get affected. I start my my a lot of times my sessions. I smile and I said, can we just take a breath for a minute? You know, just just so natural like that. Yeah. Joe Sanok 00:21:59 So good. Now I’d love to hear. So yeah, we’ve got the startup side. A lot of folks here may also already be in solo practice, and maybe they’re struggling to get new clients. Maybe they’re not sure what operations to do next. We’d love to hear in the chat specifically where you’re at, if there’s areas you feel stuck, or maybe even there’s opportunities you’re not sure what to do with, feel free to start dropping that in the chat. but I’m going to go to Eric next. and Eric would just love to hear how do you think through what to do next? Like if you think about the last six months figuring out, here’s what I need to do now that I’ve launched, I’ve got some clients coming in. Joe Sanok 00:22:32 It’s maybe not as full. You said it’s been about a month since you’ve been completely full, but you got some traction. But it’s like, now where do I go? Like what? What is it that kind of you’ve thought through in regards to the ongoing solo practice? just like how you think through it? Speaker 3 00:22:46 Oh, that’s a good question. I mean, I think I think I had a lot of ideas to begin with because I did so much networking early on and there was no way to do all of them. And so partly it’s sort of been like, okay, where am I at? What could help more with that? Like there’s all these ideas, like, so a couple months ago, I kind of did a little foray into print advertising because I thought, you know, that’s that’s a way to go direct to folks who maybe aren’t searching tons online or kind of looking for a therapist, but not like actively searching or gave up because it’s just been hard to find someone with availability who calls them back. Speaker 3 00:23:25 So partly it’s just been kind of like, yeah, just I don’t know that I have a great systematic answer for that question, but I think part of it has honestly been to just keep going, keep trying things and to try multiple things at once. Like, I, I’m on tons of directories more than I will be in a year, and I’ve done probably a little more networking that I might be doing in a few years, but I think a big part of it has just been to like, keep going, keep putting stuff in place, because what works for one other person with a different niche or in a different geographic area just might not be what leads the clients to me. So that’s been that’s been a big part of it. It’s just kind of keep trying stuff. Not in a like totally haphazard way, but picking stuff that I, you know, like Lee said, that I’m willing to like put time into and feels like a good fit. and so that’s that’s been a big part of it for me. Speaker 3 00:24:19 Yeah. Joe Sanok 00:24:19 Well, I brought this all together in a spotlight now, so, I’d love I’d like to have kind of more of a conversation than me just asking a question at a time about this idea of ongoing progress in your practice. Like, how do you think through that? at least why don’t we go to you first? Speaker 4 00:24:33 Yeah, I was similar to Eric. I was kind of doing all the things because you don’t know what you don’t know, right? Every time you try to move into a new area, expand something, start something new, ultimately you’re going to figure stuff out that you couldn’t have predicted in any way. And so you do try a bunch of things, and then you see what feels good and what has been worth it. And that’s going to be different for everything. You have to kind of way that yourself and what you’re looking for. And so moving into some of those things that okay, I know I’m going to nurture this. I know I can shift the way I’m doing this. Speaker 4 00:25:07 You know, maybe this is an every other week thing. Maybe this is, you know, putting it on my calendar to like, email these people just so I don’t forget about it and keeping consistent that way. So figuring out what has been working for you, whatever that means for you, has been really helpful. For me, breaking life down into quarters of the year is also something I talked to Eric about a couple months ago. That has been really helpful. Right? So here’s the thing that’s been working, and I want to kind of smooth it out a little bit. So I’m not putting so much effort into thinking about it as I continue to be busy. let me figure out how I can break that down this quarter so that it’s smoother for the rest of the year and all the years moving forward. And so instead of just saying, I need to do this for my practice and giving myself permission to say, okay, this is going to be a cool one, I think this is going to be a cute thing. Speaker 4 00:25:53 And letting those things exist frees up the mental space to actually go do those things. Joe Sanok 00:26:00 Yeah. Carol, how do you think through, kind of the ongoing maintenance, leveling up, all of that in regards to, you know, after you’re past the launch and you’re in solo practice, just keeping the machine going. Speaker 4 00:26:11 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:26:11 I think, setting some scheduled time for business development, like. Like if it’s a client. So setting those boundaries, like, these are the hours that I’m going to do and not have it just for catching up on notes, because that’s not progress. That’s maintenance. but invest in that. And then again, I would say it parallels the clinical stuff is get supervision. So get in a network of people that are like minded. So if you’re wanting to grow a group practice, get in a network of group practice people. If you want to, write a book, get into, you know that. So that would be the way I would do it. and also, I live by this, I have A.D.D., so I’m all over the place. Speaker 2 00:26:58 And when I slow it down, I remind myself that smooth slow means smooth. Smooth means fast. So that’s my mantra. So when I’m chaotic, I go back to wait, slow it down. Because I can smooth it down, smooth it out and I’ll catch up later. It smooths out. Joe Sanok 00:27:28 Uphill is an AI powered platform designed specifically for therapists like us. Now I know what you might be thinking. AI and therapy. How does that work? Let me tell you, uphill is a lifesaver when it comes to streamlining your administrative tasks. As therapists, we all know how crucial it is to save time whenever we can. After all, our clients deserve our undivided attention and energy. That’s where appeal comes in. It transcribes, summarizes, and analyzes our therapy sessions, helping us write those detailed progress notes up to 90% faster. Can you imagine saving 6 to 10 hours per week? That’s precious time that we can use to see more clients or simply recharge our own batteries. Just a few minutes after you finish the session, you get a pre drafted editable progress note, complete with session summary and breakdown of all the topics that were covered. Joe Sanok 00:28:19 It also provides session analytics that help you measure speech based metrics like talking ratio, speech, cadence, sentiment, and tenths. Also, it’s 100% HIPAA compliant, making it secure for both therapists and clients. The best part? It’s available for all EHRs with their browser extension. So if you’re ready to experience the game changing power of AI in your therapy practice, head on over to up Healio slash Joe and let I write your therapy notes for you. That’s uphill. Diogo. What are you doing? October 1st through third. I want to hang out with you just south of Nashville, Tennessee. Down in Franklin. I’m going to be key noting the Mental Health Marketing Conference, and I would love for you to be there. We are also sponsoring the clinical track, where there are going to be tons of amazing trainings, all for you in private practice. This is the national gathering for marketers and clinicians in mental and behavioral health. You’re not going to want to miss this awesome conference. It’s the one conference I’m keynote this year and you can read more over at MH marketing. Joe Sanok 00:29:28 Org. Also, Steve over at Mental Health Marketing has given 25% off to any practice of the practice listeners that want to come to this. Whether you’re coming in person or online, you’re going to want to use promo Code Joe at checkout to get 25% off. I would love for you to come in person for my closing keynote on Thursday, October 3rd at the Mental Health Marketing Conference, but if you can come online, that works as well. Can’t wait to hang out with you in Tennessee again. That’s MH marketing. Org and use promo code Jo at checkout to hang out with me October 1st through third, 2024. David says. And David, I’ll address this before we have the panel in solo practice and wanting to get into group. Are any of you already doing that? So just so you know, David and I put it in the chat tomorrow morning at the same time at 10 a.m., we are having a group practice panel of people that, have launched a group practice in the last year and from solo to group. Joe Sanok 00:30:26 So all those questions they will be asking and talking and answering, tomorrow morning. So make sure you anyone that’s interested in growing a group practice going from solo to group tomorrow morning, we’re going to have an awesome conversation all about that so you can register over at practice of the practice.com/level up. And that links in the chat as well. But are any of you thinking about starting a group at this point? Speaker 2 00:30:49 Yeah, yeah, I’m playing around with the idea I have an opportunity within the next year. Joe Sanok 00:30:54 Oh, nice. Yeah. Eric, I didn’t see it. I saw Elisa’s head. Speaker 3 00:30:59 It’s on the radar. So in naming, like my practice is centered perspectives therapy, it was something it felt important to name it. So I’ve kind of got the option for the future right now. I’m so thrilled to like, be out of my setup phase that I’m not quite looking yet to that next set of phase, but it’s it’s a possibility. I think I’ll probably come back to it in the next like six months. Speaker 3 00:31:21 A couple of years. Yeah. Joe Sanok 00:31:23 I mean, the one thing that I would have for anyone that’s in solo practice thinking about a group is do it sooner than you think. In the same way that with solo practice, it’s like, man, I overthought that. And like, I wish I would have jumped on some things in general. Like, you’re going to keep growing and when you’re full, you don’t want to be like, oh, how do I start a group practice now? I started a group practice, when I just didn’t want to work on a Tuesday and Thursday night. And so it was just like I had open space during that time, so got someone in there that was very part time. He saw ten clients a week, but that really, you know, at 30%, you know, that’s quite a bit that you’re bringing in just a really passive income. So in general, I’d say, you know, make sure that, you know, the three of you come to that group practice panel tomorrow too. Joe Sanok 00:32:03 So, awesome. Do you, let’s see. Clara says I have a good base of clients, but have yet to get completely full, and it’s been seven months having a hard time with marketing because it makes me feel cheesy to go out and get clients. first, how did the three of you not be cheesy? Because I think a lot of people don’t want to come across as like a used car sales person. but then also what helped you get full? So first question, how do you not be cheesy? Second, how did you get full? why don’t we kick it off with, Elise, why don’t you kick that off for us? Speaker 4 00:32:36 Yeah, I really feel this because that was my concern. how do I get to everybody I want to get to without being, you know, that walking billboard? And part of that is who you see and and how you’re marketing. Part of my marketing is who I see. Part of my marketing is me. It’s, you know, how I show up approaches it. Speaker 4 00:32:58 And so I speak to both, right? I speak to this is what you’re feeling. This is why I understand that. And this is where we go together, right? As generally and a specific as you can get. and just showing up as you I mean, yes, you know, you can talk to the people. and Caroline had a conversation about, like, I curse in my marketing because I curse in sessions. Right. I this is my relatability. It’s part of my approach. If that’s going to work for you in, you know, this three paragraph directory or whatever it might be, then we’re going to work well together. And, you know, if not, that’s okay. We’re probably not the right people. I do long term work. And so part of that is building the relationship. So just choosing, you know, who who is it that you want to see. How do you want them to meet you. Right. It’s kind of like that job interview thing. Speaker 4 00:33:48 You’re interviewing them and they’re interviewing you. Right? This is the same way about clients reaching out to you. It makes the consultation process easier. You’re not having to sell yourself. You are just connecting us to people. So I found that, you know, just showing up as me while talking to them is already the way I get calls saying, like, I almost don’t even need the consultation. I really connected with your website. I really connected with this. I feel like I know who you are already. That has been really helpful. Get full. It’s been a mixture of both. It’s been the directories. I’m, you know, I think I’m on maybe for, it’s been the networking. It has been putting yourself out there in ways that feel uncomfortable, but they actually aren’t on the receiving end. Very telling the people in your life, the other professionals, friends and family like, hey, I have this practice, you know. and just just getting the word out there, it’ll show up in front of people. Joe Sanok 00:34:44 Yeah. Eric, how have you not been cheesy. Speaker 3 00:34:47 I think just being genuine I think helps me feel like you know I mean people are looking for therapy, I provide therapy and some people might be looking for kind of approach that might be like mine. So I think just trying to feel like whether it’s kind of networking emails or the website or profiles that I’m comfortable with it and it feels like, yeah, this is, you know, it’s about what I can offer, but not in a way that I don’t feel good about. And it you know, it’s not underselling either. Like, I’m genuine about what I’m working with folks on and how I can help. But it feels like, yeah, I’m just comfortable with the language. And I think that’s led people who generally have been good fits. So finally. Joe Sanok 00:35:34 I love how you simplified it so much. Like people need therapy, I do therapy like, which actually reminded me of, you know, in 2021 when I was going through my uncoupling in divorce, and I’m a single parent with sole physical custody of my kids, you know, their mom gets a little bit of visitation. Joe Sanok 00:35:51 But, you know, most of the time it’s me. And there’s a lot of, you know, things that are wrapped up in that for my daughters. And I was like, these kids need to be in therapy. And I could not find a therapist for an elementary student. And between it took forever. It was like texting friends. It was like I was in that client mode of like, gosh, I just wish you do some good SEO. Like so, but I finally found two really great therapists. But it was my own figuring this out, getting things from other people. And it’s like, I wish they had done better marketing. I mean, these two are amazing therapists that it’s like, please, like, let the world know that you’re out there. and, you know, a lot of times I think this question is what so many therapists feel like. I don’t want to be salesy. I don’t want to push it. But it’s like there’s also people that really want to work with you, and your lack of wanting to get out there is standing in that way of them finding you. Joe Sanok 00:36:41 Carol, what about you? How are you? Not cheesy and, you know, focus on marketing. Think about marketing. Speaker 2 00:36:46 I think I feel cheesy when I’m not confident about what I’m saying or offering. Yeah, and if I’m solid and I know I’m good at it, I’m just. I’m just sharing. That’s all it is, is informing. Hey, this is what I do and there’s no please pick me, you know, and and also getting a little therapeutic on us. We we all have that that that fear of. Are we good enough? Will people like us? And you know what? That has nothing to do with your skill set. That’s just part of our human being construct. And it’s like, get used to the imposter syndrome. It’s going to be your middle name. It’s okay. You know, just calm it down. Take a couple breaths. Joe Sanok 00:37:30 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:37:31 Love that. And, you know, and just go out there and sell yourself. And you’re not selling yourself. Speaker 2 00:37:36 You’re you’re informing them of what is available and what you offer. Yeah, it’s an offer. Speaker 4 00:37:41 Right? It’s an offer. And it’s kind of like a dialogue. If you can set it up, you’re not actively talking to them. But it’s more of a conversation than a sales pitch. Yeah. Joe Sanok 00:37:50 Yeah. I think even like when I do pre consulting calls with people that are interested in consulting, you know, I start with, you know, I do 5 to 10 of these calls a week. So to me it’s all about figuring out the best use of your time and your money. And if it’s a fit at the end of the call, awesome. If not, we don’t have to squeeze you into anything that’s not a fit. And it’s like so many times you just feel it’s like, oh, you’re not going to sell to me. It’s like, no, like there’s no reason to. It doesn’t make me look good. If I get a bunch of consulting clients that aren’t a good fit, that I can’t give a good return on investment to, and it doesn’t help you out. Joe Sanok 00:38:19 If you pay a bunch of money for something that doesn’t help you so that you don’t see the value in. So to me, it’s just like giving back to the human side of it. Like, you know, if you can help them therapeutically, awesome. If not, like, we’ll help you find a referral. I’m going to read the next question. I want the three of you to think about it. I’m going to share a little bit about what’s coming up, because some people had some questions that directly apply to some of the things that we’re covering this week. And so I just want to go through what’s coming up and some of our programs. Then we’re going to come back to this question. So Matthew says, I know the conventional wisdom of niching down to attract your ideal clients. As I’m in a building phase, I’m concerned that doing that means clients I could work with, but aren’t quite the niche will self-select out when I could really use the clients. Now, is it worth casting a wider net in the short term to manage my anxiety? Thank you for your disclosure around that. Joe Sanok 00:39:07 Or stay firm and build the niche. My niches are gay men and sex therapy with men. So why don’t I just share with you just a few things about our communities? All three of our panel members are in next level practice. They’ve jumped in there in solo practice. And so I want to just ask you, are you ready to start or grow a solo practice? But maybe you’re a little confused as to where to start in in the questions, those are questions that we talk about all the time. Every week we’re meeting together, we’re having conversations. We have small groups. I’ll talk about what’s included. But honestly, like all of the things that you all are saying, here’s what I’m dealing with. We do in community. And to me, the guiding principle of next level practice is that we are so much stronger as a group together, saying we want to grow our solo practices than if it was just me teaching you, or if it was just, you know, all the courses that I made that we together can collectively create something that individually, we never could have created. Joe Sanok 00:40:04 So next level practice is our program about launching and growing your solo practice. So from the moment you think to yourself, I want to start a practice all the way through. When you’re starting a group practice, that’s next level practice. After next level practice, we have a program called group Practice launch. So if you’re in solo practice and you’re ready to make that jump into group practice, group practice launch and all these links are over at that forward slash level up. If you wanted to read about any of the programs. And then after that we have group practice boss, which is for people that have already done their first hiring all the way up to we have people with 50 clinicians that are in group practice. Boss. So next level practice is for people wanting to start and grow a solo practice, get personal help in small groups, live and recorded webinar trainings and feedback to take your practice to the next level. Now the things that we cover in next level practice is how to choose the right practice name when you’re first getting started. Joe Sanok 00:40:54 Navigating legal requirements of your practice. Sometimes we bring in attorneys. We are not attorneys, so we’re not giving legal advice, but we’re saying, here’s how I would think through it. Here’s how I would talk to people about it. Here’s our working knowledge of, you know, whether you need an LLC, a PLC, an S Corp, all of those sorts of things. We talk about attracting your niche, which we’re going to talk about in just a second. Two of, you know, how much do you niche in how much do you not. we talk about your work schedule and business model, establishing prices, cultivating a balanced lifestyle. So what’s included in next level practice is, we get we have small groups that meet once or twice a month, and then we have ones that are also topic based. So the small groups, most of you know, our panelists and I think all of our panelists and then most of our members are in the small groups. So they’ll meet and we have a facilitator named Kate that’s in there, keeps the conversation going. Joe Sanok 00:41:43 It’s a peer support group as well. You also we have two groups, one that’s on marketing right now and one it’s on networking that you can attend. Also, you can get an accountability partner that’s at your same stage of practice. And so this is someone we pair you up with that we say we think you two would be able to hold each other accountable. You choose how often you want to meet. Do you want to just text each other. Do you want to do a call once a month, you to decide that? And if it’s not a fit for some reason, you just let us know and we’ll find you a new one. we have monthly asked the experts, so we’ve brought in people like Doctor Julie Schwartz Gottman. We’ve brought in Mike McLeod from Profit First we talk about clinical things like highly sensitive people and couples counseling and marketing. So people that I’m often interviewing on the podcast, I’m like, you would be an amazing expert for us to dig into. And for an hour, we literally just pepper them with questions. Joe Sanok 00:42:31 We have weekly live trainings and Q&A with me and the other consultants where people come together. we talk about what’s working. we talk about how to get to that next level. If you’re stuck as to your next steps, you know, like Eric was saying, you know, just this last month, he filled up, you know, all three of these panelists come to almost every one of the meetings, and that’s why they’re full. That’s why they grow, is they participate, they get the right knowledge, and they’re able to grow quickly. We have a library of over 30 courses on starting and growing a solo practice. And you also get, access to our full online community. so we’re actually offering a discount where you now get it for 119 a month or $1,190 annually. I’ll give you that discount code in just a second. You can open up the tab practice with the practice. Com forward slash NLP door. That’s going to be the page where you can sign up. You’re going to want to sign up because we have a few bonuses coming that I’m going to share in just a second. Joe Sanok 00:43:24 So your first six months typically in month one you get onboarded, you get all your access, you get assigned into your small group, you attend the welcome party and you come to the Ask the Expert month to. We really solidify your plan with you in a group setting. some people think that you’re going to get one on one, consulting for 119 a month. I just want to clarify, that’s not the case. And if you do get a consultant that’s that cheap, you might want to question their ability to help you grow. If it’s that cheap to do one on one consulting. But these are small groups. usually most of our meetings have anywhere from 10 to 20 people in it. and then months three through six, we’re often seeing that most people are full within 6 to 9 months. so if you just think on the cheap end, you know, 15 clients a week at 125 per session times four weeks, that’s $7,500 a month gross coming in when you’re full. So that’s pretty amazing. Joe Sanok 00:44:15 Within six months, 6 to 9 months, we see that people are getting that full. Brian has been a member of Next Level Practice. He’s so full that he recently left our community and is just going to run the practice for a while. Brian said. I wanted to reach out and say a huge thank you for my amazing for the amazing asset. The next level practice has been on my life and on my practice. I’ve been enriched by the resources provided, the knowledge passed on in the webinars, and more than anything, the community that I’ve built with others in next level practice. Thank you so much for all you’ve done for me. I’ll be forever grateful and forever a fan. Jessica has been involved in a few of our communities, and was working in the school system for 13 years as a school social worker. She’s a licensed clinical worker and also clinical social worker and certified child centered play therapist. And she took a big dive into solo practice on her own and fell flat on her face, and six months later, expanded into a group practice. Joe Sanok 00:45:07 And she joined us and ended up racking out private practice. Meet Eric, who you have met, who said, next Level practice has been a great resource leading up to launching my private practice as I’ve been building my caseload. In my experience with Next Level, the Next Level practice team recognizes different people, have different goals and paths. So while there’s lots of helpful information and tips, it’s with the understanding that there are differences geographically and individually. I found it very helpful to access the online resources and discussion boards, small group video discussions, and interactive presentations and Q&A sessions that always allow plenty of time for questions. So I just want to ask you, who do you want helping you? I mean, all three of these panelists have pointed to getting help. You know, we get clinical supervision. You know, Carol said, getting help with the business. You know, we’ve helped over 2500 therapists start and grow their private practice through our online communities. Every month we get 60,000 to 100,000 listens of the podcast. Joe Sanok 00:46:03 It’s a proven process based on 15 years of private practice experience. I sold my practice in 2019, and it was a thriving practice. I was able to exit that and over ten years of consulting now, we’ve been recognized and awarded nine top consultant podcast and website awards from the Best in Therapy awards since 2018. And from what we’ve been able to figure out, our members have collected over $250 million in sales. So if you do it on your own, you’re going to spend a lot of time evaluating and picking the right approach. You’re going to be wondering if you’re doing it right. You may get conflicting information. I know that we often hear that people post something in some of these free Facebook groups, which can be a good resource, but they often leave more confused rather than if you’re in the next level practice. If you post a question in circle where we have all of our discussions, it’s going to speed up your progress. You’re going to get weekly trainings from us that are live and are also recorded small groups, accountability. Joe Sanok 00:46:57 And you’re going to get tools of the trade like a logo and paperwork packets. to me, what’s the ROI in your time? What’s the return on investment? Because for every hour that you’re spending, searching, evaluating, wondering if you could be doing it right, you could be actually making progress. And you could be working with experts like myself and the other consultants that have done this for over a decade, and other people like our panelists that are in this community. So the circle community, we have all sorts of discussions within there. It’s designed exclusively for therapists, counselors, coaches and mental health practitioners to offer transformative experiences that go beyond just traditional networking. Now we have a couple bonuses going on here. Now one is that we do a 90 day money back guarantee. So if you get into our community and you pay and you’re like, this isn’t what I thought it was, you know, it’s zero risk. You know, we are so confident in this. The only times that we’ve had to refund money has been when people have, like a parent gets sick or they realized, you know what, now is not the time for private practice. Joe Sanok 00:47:55 So 90 day money back guarantee. we’re having our NLP welcome party April 3rd at 1:00 eastern. So you get to come to that. also, you’re going to get a free logo, that’s valued at $500. Also, you’re going to get our new networking course and our new marketing course, as well as our paperwork packet, which we sell for 195. so all of these bonuses are valued at $1,093, and that’s all for 119 a month. So you need to use code NLP 40 to get that off of the typical price to take $40 off per month, or if you sign up annually, just add a zero to that code and it’ll be NLP 400. You’ll take $400 off of the annual subscription price if you don’t sign up though, like who’s going to support you? How are you going to decide what to do next? How are you going to not get confused? Where will that accountability be? Honestly, I’m like, who has time for figuring all that out when there’s thousands of people that have already done this? we recommend our three, two, one, which is that three times a month that you’re putting in time into discussions within circle, that you attend two live events every month and do one course per month. Joe Sanok 00:49:02 So it averages to a couple hours a week to know exactly where to spend your time and money. The most common questions are I’m just starting. Is it for me? Yes. Yeah. This is for people starting all the way through that growth phase into starting a group practice for 119 a month. You know, if you just think about is that really worth it? we’ll ask our panelists if it’s worth it. it’s like Netflix. You can leave whenever you want. you know, it’s an ongoing program. And if you have reached your goals, you can cancel anytime. if you don’t like your accountability partner or anything like that will help you figure that out. All right. Now is the time for action. We only have 75 spots in this cohort. Use code NLP 40 to take that $40 off per month, or code NLP 400 to take it off annually. This is the most vibrant membership community out there for therapists, and we would love to have you be a part of it. now is the time to get those teachings, join the community and get those tools of the trade. Joe Sanok 00:49:56 I want to jump back in with our panel. Also, if you’re going to sign up, we’d love to see that in the chat as well. but let’s go first to that question about Niching. Carol, what comes to mind for you in regards to Niching? Speaker 2 00:50:10 I had the same question. you know, you do want to have a broad base of clients to know what you’re really good at, and, you’ll you’ll find the clients that burn you out or that kind of discourage you. That would that I would pay attention to that because it’s like, oh, what are the ones that make me excited? What are the ones that, like, I leave smiling going, yeah, that was great. So write those things down. Those are probably your ideal clients. what Joe says, what we’ve learned is a generalist, a specialist. If you specialize like this is my my area, you can always generalize to take other people, but you can’t necessarily do the reverse. So as for me, you know, I because I, I am not of the LGBTQ population. Speaker 2 00:50:58 I’m an ally. I need therapists that are unapologetic about that and, and openly work and understand and and support them. And those clients need it to. So, that is a broad audience. So you’re actually by saying, you know, you’re going to market yourself. That’s not as niche as you think because there’s so many clients out there. So I would just say, don’t be afraid. Trust us. We have all felt that fear, and we’ve all end up getting to a point where, yeah, we do have ideal clients. Speaker 5 00:51:31 Yeah, yeah. Joe Sanok 00:51:32 One thing I frequently say in next level practice is that, you know, if you think about any specialist, whether it’s a restaurant or whether it’s, you know, brain surgeon, you’re going to assume that they can be a generalist. You’re going to assume that if you ask about a rash to your brain surgeon, which hopefully you don’t need a brain surgeon, that they’re going to know about a rash. Whereas if you’re going to ask about brain surgery, someone that is your general doctor, they probably can’t do that. Joe Sanok 00:51:55 So yeah, so specializing usually assumes that you can do other things. Are there any things that Eric or at least that you can add to that? beyond what Carol just said? Speaker 4 00:52:04 Yeah. I mean, I’ll speak from somebody who also works in the sex therapy space, like Matthew is needed. It is not too specific, you know, niching down with gay men and sex therapy with men is is no matter where you are going to be. Wonderful. You know, you can talk about the things, the themes that you enjoy working on, the ways that you approach it. And again, people who will resonate that even if they’re like people. I also want to talk about, you know, some anxiety and stress management and work life balance. Like that’s going to be true even with sometimes if that’s not the focus, right, these other things come up. And so if you touch on some of that stuff, you know, again, yes, sometimes clients are always going to self-select out. They might want in-person or online. Speaker 4 00:52:48 You only offer one or the other. They might want to use this specific insurance and you don’t accept it or whatever it might be. they might be too, too busy or time zone aligned. There’s always reasons that it might not totally line up, but knowing that you can be specific, you can touch on these other things. You’re going to be able to reach a whole lot of people that desperately need it and will fill you up, that you actually get excited to come to work every day. Because, yes, maybe they’re also talking about this other thing, but it’s still this other thing you enjoy, right? So there’s a way to cast that wider net without necessarily seeing anybody who will walk in your door. So again, think about when you’re full six months from now. Do you want two days of your week talking to people that you don’t necessarily want to be talking to anymore? Right. That there’s certainly ways to go ahead and, and, and have that net while still only speaking to the specific people you want. Speaker 3 00:53:43 Yeah. And I would just add, I mean, I think I’m someone who has not followed the niche advice very well. I have a number of specialties on my site and it it worked like I, I am full, but not that many people are in any of those specialty areas. There are people who I think are a good fit personality and approach wise. but I looking back, I might have I don’t know, it would have been worth experimenting. But following that advice better, I would say. And it’s something I’m thinking about now, like I have a bereavement and remembering groups. I’m hoping that’ll kind of plant some more feet in the networking world of like, oh, okay, someone for grief. Maybe I’ll send that as an individual client. and I think people can also think about, like maybe at least in certain spaces, trying to niche, even if your website or something is a little more broad, maybe with these directories or with your marketing, maybe there’s ways you want to be more specific or experiment with that. Speaker 3 00:54:35 So. Joe Sanok 00:54:36 So awesome. Well, our panelists have, done an amazing job today. feel free to put in the chat. What for you has really stood out. Is there something that you’re just like, oh, when you said that Eric or Elise or Carol, that just blew my mind. That made me so excited. Put in an emoji. It just says how you felt about this today. I am going to answer one question that was still hanging out there. If you take on additional clinicians in a group practice, do you bear any responsibility for the clinical work? So yeah, you always want to make sure you have a contract either for 1099 independent contractors, which are sort of like a business within your business or W-2s. And so usually what you’ll have is what’s called an indemnity clause, basically relieving you of anything that becomes like a big issue and you getting sued, on behalf of that person. Now, that doesn’t always protect you. I’m not an attorney. Make sure you talk to your own attorney. Joe Sanok 00:55:25 You usually do want to have, additional liability insurance and to talk to your liability insurance if you’re going to bring in W-2s or 1099 to make sure that you also have them if something happens there with them as well. You also always want to make sure that you have either an LLC, PLLC, or whatever your state requires to have a business difference between you as a person and you as a business to protect your personal assets. in regards to like if there is a lawsuit either for you or one of the clinicians that’s on your behalf. Awesome. Thank you for leveling up while other people give up. We will see you soon and make sure you sign up for those membership communities and use those codes. We will be hanging out all this week and next week, helping you get into the membership community so you can level up. Thank you so much and great to hear that we have people from the UK. glad you’re here from the UK. Thanks everybody. I will see you in the next webinar. Bye. Joe Sanok 00:56:26 And we could not do this show without our amazing sponsors. And our sponsor for today is uphill. Uphill is what I wish I had my practice. It is a game changing experience where it brings the power of AI into your therapy practice, where you can have secure progress, note analysis, analytics and ways that you can do even better and save a ton of time. In fact, up to 6 to 10 hours a week. So you can use AI now to help with your progress notes over at uphill.io/joe and let I write your therapy notes for you. That’s uphill.io forward slash. Joe, thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band, Silence is Sexy for that intro music, and this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter cover. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. Joe Sanok 00:57:31 If you want a professional. You should find one.