[JOE SANOK]
This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 619.

I’m Joe Sanok, your host, and welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I hope that you are doing awesome. You know, when I was a kid I remember in second grade, I really wanted a skateboard and my parents said that the neighbors were going away and that every day their bird bath had to get filled with water. And when they got home, I got $20 for filling their bird bath every single day for seven days as this little seven year old. And I remember going to Kmart with my dad and we went and picked out a skateboard and they had said that they would pay half of it. So with that $20, I now had $40 to go buy a skateboard. That is my life. My parents from the very beginning had me saving up money to spend it.

I remember saving up money when we went to Disney when I was five and then when I was on the airplane remembering I had left that change bucket at home, and my dad said, “That’s okay.” I was like crying. He said, “That’s okay. I’ll loan you the money,” as a five year old. It’s really interesting to think about in a lot of ways, how that prepped me with money to not just respect that you have to earn it, but also the opportunity to, like I could do anything. I remember after my senior year of college, I took all the money that I got as my graduation money and I put it into a six month CD, so I wouldn’t spend it. And when it came due in December, I then bought a ticket over to Europe, into Ireland.

Then I was going to be exiting from Germany. I bought a six week Euro rail pass and I went all by myself as a 19 year old and just stayed in youth hostels for six weeks. That money was something that from a very young age, I was taught that I could open up doors with, but also like it wasn’t all about just status symbols. It was about using it as a tool to help the world, to help me have experiences, to do all sorts of things. So when you have those kind of ways that people have taught you about money, you don’t always realize that maybe the money hang-ups that other people have are things that, I don’t know, that don’t just come naturally to them.

So I’m really, really excited about the guest we have on the show today. Linzy Bonham. Linzy is a therapist in private practice and a consultant who helps therapists feel calm and in control of their finances. Linzy’s also the creator of the Money Skills for Therapists Course. As the daughter of an accountant, Linzy inherited a good dose of bookkeeping brain. She’s like half a therapist and half a bookkeeper. So when she went into private practice, she dug right into all the ways to build a healthy business that pays for her life and always has extra money in the bank. Linzy, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast.
[LINZY BONHAM]
Thank you, Joe.
[JOE]
Yes, it sounds like we had parents that taught us about money.
[LINZY]
I was just thinking your parents really did you a solid with money. That is a really exceptionally good set of money stories and skills you inherited.
[JOE]
Yes, and it’s interesting now having an almost seven year old and 10 year old to say, how do I transfer that over? because I don’t want them to be entitled little kids that think that they get everything. And I also want them to have maybe more opportunity than I had. So it’s interesting to sort through that with my own kids.
[LINZY]
Absolutely. Yes, and I think with having kids, that’s something I notice a lot of my students start to think about right away. As soon as you start to sort your own money stuff is realizing you are creating a legacy with your kids from the beginning around money.
[JOE]
Yes. I remember Lucia, my 10 year old, a couple years ago wanted to do a lemonade stand and we had this big conversation around, “Okay, well, what kind of lemonade stand? So you can do the powdered mix that is like 25 cents and nobody really wants to drink or we can do a homemade lemonade.” And she’s like, “Well, let’s learn a little bit about it.” We learned about how to make simple syrup and that we needed a juicer. So she ended up saying, I want to do Lucia’s Handmade Lemonade. So we got this big Vista Print thing made and we did it in the middle of a marathon.

We also thought through like, what else do people want at 9:00 AM? She’s like coffee. So we sold coffee also. She, after paid me back for all the stuff, made a hundred dollars an hour over two hours. So it’s like, she learned this important lesson about like, how do you make a bunch of money? You have a specialized product. you do some research, you’re in a good location. You don’t do it on a Wednesday afternoon when people feel sorry for you. You do it when they’re actually thirsty for a lemonade or coffee.
[LINZY]
Yes, absolutely. What a good start in business for her?
[JOE]
Well, tell me about your start in business, kind of how you were raised, how it set you up for kind of money mindset. And I’d love to hear how you’ve started to apply that in your own private practice. We’ll eventually get to kind of the tips for therapists, but I always love hearing people’s backstory first.
[LINZY]
Yes. So as you mentioned, I was fortunate to be raised by an accountant. And I will say like, I want to qualify that because my brother was also raised by an accountant and our money pictures look very different. So I think that I was both raised by my mom who was very thoughtful about money and wanted to impart on me that information, but also as a kid, for whatever reason, I was receptive to that information. because I think sometimes there’s, there can be a piece missing there for whatever reason. That means that parents don’t necessarily get the skills to you even if they have them. So I was really lucky to have a parent who sat me down with spreadsheets when I was a teenager and explained to me like, “Okay, you, if you invest $50,” I can’t remember if it was a week or a month. I think it’s a week; $50 a week until you are 50, you’ll have a million dollars.

So I was really fortunate to kind of get these lessons that I was also interested in, because thinking about your story Joe, about buying that skateboard, I have a story that always sticks out in my brain, kind of showing me how I’ve been this way for so long where I remember as a child really feeling like I had like cracked the code where I realized that if you buy candy in bulk at Costco you save money rather than buying it at the convenience store. Candy was my thing as a child. It was like the most valuable thing. So I remember realizing like, right, I pay 5 cents of candy at the convenience store but when I buy these in bulk, there’s so much candy and I’m only paying this much money; like doing those calculations as probably like a six or seven year old.

So I not only had this nice setup, but I think I also, as I said inherited this brain that also was interested in numbers as well as being a total feelings person, which is what led me into the field of therapy. So I had this nice footing of parents who raised me with an allowance and I didn’t get just kind of handed money. I knew how much money was coming. So I planned with that money, I got a job when I was 15 and worked in a cafe with all these people who are much older than me and was really proud of that. And yes, I paid for a trip to Spain. I remember realizing that I was getting a good financial education as a kid when I took a trip to Spain when I was 19. I was one of the only people on that trip who had paid for the trip myself.
[JOE]
Where’d you go in Spain?
[LINZY]
I went to, it was to Barcelona little town called Cahaya and a little Girona, maybe. It’s like a little Roman place and I was taking a philosophy course. I really loved to travel when I was younger. All my money was about travel and I clocked the fact when I was 19 that I was enjoying that trip so much more than the kids whose parents had paid for it. It meant so much to me. I had been saving up for this trip for so long that like I was owning it and savoring it whereas for some of these kids, this was just like part of their Christmas present. And it didn’t have the same meaning or richness. So I realized early that that tension around money also makes life more enjoyable.
[JOE]
Yes, I feel like so much of college. It was like, come home and work, go to school, then go and travel and go spend some money and then come back and then travel. And I remember now that you say that, I remember in eighth grade with the boy Scouts, we were going down to the Florida Sea Base to go scuba diving and to have raised all that money for the airline ticket for the cost of going, there was just such a sense of independence. Like I raised the money to go scuba diving in Florida when most kids can barely pay for like a dinner out or something. And you’re right, like that sense of just appreciating it because you made it happen.
[LINZY]
Yes, appreciation and pride. Yes, these things are so much sweeter when there’s, I think work that goes into them.
[JOE]
Well. So then when you started your private practice, how do you think you thought about money differently than the average person starting a practice?
[LINZY]
One thing that was different for me when I started is I was really hungry for the information. So I was looking like, I remember buying these private practice books. I also started private practice, like fairly young. I remember moving through a manual that I got from my association and they said, if you haven’t been in practice for five years, you shouldn’t be a private practice. And I was kind of like, Ugh, and I just turned the page and kept going. So I kind of dove into it pretty, only a couple years into my career and quite wholeheartedly. I was really searching for that financial information. I was like, ‘Okay, I’m starting this practice.” So now I’m going through my practice building books, how exactly do you manage the money? How exactly do you say for taxes? How exactly do I know how to set my fee or how much I should spend on this or that?

And I couldn’t find it. It wasn’t really there. So I was definitely seeking when I started it out and was aware of those things, that those things needed attention and needed intention. But I had a really hard time actually having somebody just tell me what to do. I just couldn’t find it. So I started to build it basically.
[JOE]
Wow. So then as you built it, what did that look like?
[LINZY]
It started with just like that basic thing that, this is what I always tell my students, like just making that separation, separating your money from the very beginning and that like real intention around how it was there and tracking it. I like built out a spreadsheet, got into QuickBooks, but I still felt like there was a missing piece. And then for me, when I found Profit First, that really clicked as that piece I had been looking for, which is like, what is the big guidelines? What’s kind of the larger wisdom around this? So when I found Profit First that clicked into place and then I started to kind of build that into, I ended up moving into YNAB and integrating Profit First. In YNAB I just kind of like took all these helpful pieces and started to mash them together into a system that worked for me.
[JOE]
Yes. So with Profit First, I know we’ve had Mike Michalowicz on here; he’s been one of our experts in Next Level Practice and have met a bunch of his team members. Share a little bit about how, like what Profit First is for those that maybe haven’t heard those episodes and we can link to that in the show notes, those past episodes. Like kind of how that looks, maybe what is the big picture and then how do you implement that for your practice personally.
[LINZY]
So Profit First big picture, it’s an envelope budgeting system for your business. So envelope budgeting is this like old school, very concrete budgeting system, where, when there used to be cash in the world, which isn’t really the case anymore. You would actually have like a solid, like an envelope. And this is a home budgeting system originally. So you would have an for groceries and every time you got paid, you would distribute your money along like a percentage or an amount that you’ve already decided upon into each envelope. So it’d be very concrete, like in this envelope is the money I have for groceries for the next two weeks, in this envelope is the money that I have for clothes or for my kids. So translated to business, Profit First is an envelope system for your business finances and the way that Mike Michalowicz sets it up is those envelopes are bank accounts.

So if you’re doing the kind of actual concrete original version of Profit First you have five separate bank accounts that are very clearly for different parts of your business, that all need attention and to have money going towards them. So you have a profit account, which the way I explain it to my students is that’s like your, it’s your celebration fund. It’s your quarterly profit. It’s your like rewarding you for being a badass entrepreneur and taking risks. Because we do that when we’re private practice. It’s not safe. So that’s your quarterly bonus. Then you have a salary account, operating expenses, taxes. And then I always throw in retirement as well or other big goals. That’s a big passion of mine, it’s making Profit First work for the more important things in your life. And then there’s also an income account. So money always comes into one place and then goes to those other. So it’s a very clear, very tangible budgeting system for private practice.
[JOE]
Yes. I know I’ve done Profit First for a long time and just to have, the initial setup took a bit but then once you have those automations where it automatically transfers into each fund, and I know that Mike talks about having some of it be in like totally separate bank accounts, which I’m, I don’t know. I mean, I have separate checking accounts within the same institution but he has, I think the profit going to like a totally different bank which I don’t feel like I need that.
[LINZY]
You probably don’t by the sounds of your money stories.
[JOE]
Yes. I’m not like, Ooh, there’s the profit account. I’m just going to steal from it. No, it’s like, that’s the profit account.
[LINZY]
Yes. And that’s one of the things I like about Profit First, Joe. It’s like, you can make it work for who you are. So for who you are having separate banks doesn’t sound like it’s really important. But for some of the people I work with, they’re like, “Oh, I’ll definitely steal that if I see it. Like if they log into their bank and they see that 2000 for taxes and they want to go to a training, it’s like, “Oh, I’ll just borrow from the tax account.” So that’s where, there’s the wisdom of like putting taxes totally out of reach, putting profit totally out of reach to basically like know yourself and protect yourself from your own weaknesses.
[JOE]
Yes. It’s funny because it’s like, when I learned Profit First, I’m like, am I already doing that but with just one account. And it’s like, in my head, I was, I knew, okay, there’s this much for taxes. That’s part of, so even if I have all this money in there, I know this and then it just was in my head. So it is easier to have it be in separate accounts to just be able to glance at it and say, “Okay, I’ve got enough tax money there. Like write the check.”
[LINZY]
Absolutely. It’s very clarifying, Profit First.
[JOE]
Yes. So tell me when you’re teaching your students, because you’ve leveled up from just being a therapist to then teaching people about money, how did that happen? Because a lot of the people that are in Next Level Practice or Group Practice Boss, they’re starting to outgrow their practice and wanting to do things beyond their practice. And I’m always interested when people build another stream of income that’s not therapy or therapy based; it’s not like you’re just doing group therapy. Take us through how you even started kind of going down that path of being a consultant.
[LINZY]
I mean, I think for me there was like there was a stick in a carrot. The stick, the pain point was that I ended up in a really demanded field of therapy in that I ended up specializing in dissociation and complex trauma. So going into private practice that kind of like I stepped into that niche, I started getting referred folks with like a DID diagnosis. I did well with them. I got more referrals. So my private practice became quite draining for me truthfully because the kind of work that I was doing, which was also the kind of work I was passionate about was really demanding of my emotional energy. I just had to be so present in sessions and was tracking so much information at one time that it was really starting to burn me out basically.

And I feel like I was constantly on the edge of burnout. So for me that was the pain point, that individual therapy felt like it could very easily become unsustainable, especially if something came up in my own life and suddenly I had like less emotional energy. So moving towards the positive, the carrot side, the pleasure and moving towards consulting was that looking around at my peers, I had friends who like, I don’t know, Joe, if you came from agency work before you went into private practice.
[JOE]
I sure did.
[LINZY]
You went that way too. So I had, for instance, like my work wife, at work. I worked in violence against women to start, which is also a great place to start in your career. I had like a work wife there, the person that was my go-to person who she just, even though she was so tortured by agency work, never wanted to go in the private practice because she was like so afraid of the money. She was so afraid of business and having to handle money and she just wanted to like be an employee and not have to think about those things. And it became apparent to me that this thing that I had naturally, which you also have Joe, this just like natural aptitude with money and this figure-it-out, a lot of people didn’t have. And a lot of people who have like really amazing clinical skills and who would really do well in private practice in terms of like people would love to work with them just weren’t even going to private practice because of the money.

So I started to identify like, oh, I have something here that other people don’t have. So I ended up, you know my path was that I ended up reaching out to a coach who I really admired, joined a program with her, started to build out my program. But what I’ve discovered is the need for this is so great that this has actually become my full-time thing. I actually just retired from private practice two weeks ago.
[JOE]
Wow, congratulations.
[LINZY]
Yes, thank you. I like to use the term retire. It’s a little bit maybe a little dramatic but I’m kind of feeling that right now because I think, yes, there was a point where it did feel like this like wonderful these golden handcuffs in a way with therapy.
[JOE]
How’d you deal with the emotions of giving, I mean to go to school for so long to then have it be a part of your identity and then to have those clients that just don’t want you to ever retire?
[LINZY]
Oh, no, no, no.
[JOE]
How did you deal with that? Because I remember in 2019, when I sold my practice, I knew if I didn’t just sell the practice, I would, like there were clients —
[LINZY]
Forever, do it —
[JOE]
Just do it forever. So tell me about the emotions.
[LINZY]
Oh my gosh. So many emotions. I basically managed to do it in two steps because I’m Canadian and in Canada. If you’re opted into government benefits, which in private practice, you’re not, but you can opt in, if you’re an employee you’re always opted in, you get a one year maternity benefits. So when I went on maternity leave with my son, when my son was born in 2019, I was off for a whole year. So it’s kind of like I shut down my practice twice. That was the first time. And that time, it was just like, I’m going on that leave and everybody understood that if I go on that leave, I’m gone for a year and that they can’t just like, wait for me for a whole year. So at that point I had already done that work of like saying goodbye to the 25 or 30 active clients I had at that time and doing all that painful closure.

Because of the type of work that I did too, we were so in that attachment stuff together. Like, that’s what we worked around. So it was intense. It was really intense. And then when I came back, I basically gave myself permission to not restart my private practice and just work on this business, but like you said, Joe, it’s like, because my practice wasn’t officially closed, I had some of my favorite clients reach out to me, like old clients who were like in crisis, but who were people that I really loved working with. So they ended up kind of getting in again because I wasn’t really done. I was like, they pushed through my I’m not taking clients on my website and my auto responder and so I ended up working with clients again.

It was like this really mixed thing because I still do love that work in so many ways. And it still is, I think a real gift that I have. It just naturally flows from me, but I had to just be real about the fact that I could only do so many things and I have a toddler and it’s a pandemic and like the course business, like Money, Nuts and Bolts. My business money skills for therapist was demanding so much more of me. And then I had employees under me and it’s like, I could not do everything. I had to really be real about that. So I yes, shut down with those five or six people I was seeing. And it was really hard. There’s no way around it.

One of my last sessions was with one of my clients who I adore. I probably cried for a good 40 minutes with her. I’m still talking and functioning as a therapist, but it was legitimately sad. And I think that it is kind of this, like, I don’t know why I want to say it, but I want to say it’s almost like this like road through hell that you have to go through to come out into something new. Because otherwise I would’ve been doing that work forever If I hadn’t actually set that very clear boundary that I do not have a practice.
[JOE]
My dad said to me once when you’re good at what you do, when you leave, people will always be disappointed. And I was just like, oh. So I think about when I left the nonprofit world and they’re like, but there’s no young male therapist. And then it was like, when I stopped doing clinical supervision, people were like, “We signed up because of you. We don’t want to work with the new supervisor.” It’s like, every time you level up, there’s going to be people that are disappointed but you’ve got to keep plowing through because when I look at, for me to get to the point where I have this book out now and all those things, like I never would’ve had the time, capacity or even courage to do a lot of that if I still was limping along in those other areas. So it’s emotionally hard and the people want to keep working with you, but if you’re going to serve a broader audience and help more people and level up, it’s just kind of part of it.
[LINZY]
Yes. And I call it the curse of the competent. So it’s like when you are really competent in a certain area, you’re always going to have demand and you’re always going to have people asking you to do therapy with them or consultation, or just do this little presentation. You’re always going to have that because you have a gift in certain area. So that saying no, as you’re saying Joe is essential to actually carving up the space for what really excites you and having that like next level impact if that’s what draws you. I think we could spend our whole lives doing things for other people, which is a very therapist thing to do by the way. And it does, it takes a lot of nerve and it’s painful to to say no and to choose to do something else.
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[JOE SANOK]
So if you were to kind of give the big three pillars of finances, that every therapist needs to get in order in these three areas, like here’s 1, 2, 3, and it’s going to give them 80% of the results with 20% of the effort, what would those big three be?
[LINZY]
The first one is a doozy. The first one is absolutely about your money stories and your relationship to money. And it is a doozy because if you didn’t have a more or less idyllic upbringing around money, which most of us didn’t, it is actually getting into what is potentially trauma, like being real with yourself about maybe parents like not providing for you or chaos in your home, or a feeling of instability that you might have had as a kid. A lot of those things, Joe are like what’s really present for people who really struggle with money. Because from the very beginning, there’s been this blueprint around money, that money is like chaotic or confusing, or it comes and it goes with no reason.

So the first thing that I always encourage people to do is to actually just start to even just be aware of what those stories are, because for the folks that I work with around money, who are therapists, who tend to be more anxious around money, more avoidant, it’s usually actually those stories are that first barrier. And if you don’t actually identify those and start to build up the skills to shift those stories, but also just tolerate them and identify that that’s what’s happening and take care of yourself and come back to working on your money again, it’s like an insurmountable barrier for people. You’ll just never make progress because it’s actually the emotional weight that is holding you back, not skills or the right tool or anything like that. So that’s number one. Number one is getting your money stuff in order. I usually swear Joe, but I noticed you didn’t, so getting your money in order.
[JOE]
I realized that a lot of people sometimes listen to this with their kids in the car.
[LINZY]
Okay, okay.
[JOE]
I have no problem with swearing.
[LINZY]
It’s fine. So that’s number one. Number two, I would say is creating clarity. So it’s getting some sort of clarity. Separate bank accounts are clarity. That is a huge first step and if you don’t have that, doing that makes a huge difference. Just have your private practice money separately. Like a more leveled up version of that would be tracking your finances or budgeting with finances is kind of like that third step of clarity, but starting to instill clarity into your relationship with money goes a really long way, because a lot of times people just aren’t looking at it and there’s a lot of chaos and debt that can pile up and also shame that happens when we’re not looking at our money. Sometimes it’s even, you think it’s worse than it is, but you can’t know that unless you create the clarity to actually we see what’s going on.

So that would be my second pillar that I would recommend. Then the third goes back to exactly what you were talking about at the beginning of this episode, Joe, which is identify what money means to you. Like once you’ve moved through and started to get rid of the clutter and the junk, those stories, starting to actually see what’s going on, the third thing is to think about what do you actually want money to do in your life? And that’s so different for everybody. It might be travel like it was for you and I, Joe, when we were younger. It might be about giving back to your community. It might be about creating certain experiences for your kids. Like where in your life can money do the most good and making sure that money is going there? Because a lot of times money is going to places that doesn’t actually make a difference for us and therefore we’re not actually kind of reaping the benefits of the energy that we put out to make that money.
[JOE]
Wow. That’s so awesome. So any kind of closing things around, just wrapping up kind of the basics of money for people before we ask you that final question?
[LINZY]
Any basic things, I think like, no, I would actually go into the final question, what I was about to say. I’ll just say that one.
[JOE]
Let do it. Let’s just go into the final question. So if every private practitioner in the world we’re listening right now, what would you want them to know?
[LINZY]
What I want them to know is that money is learnable. Like private practitioners have learned so much to get where we are. We tend to be learners. You’ve usually gone through a college or university program, you’ve gone through a professional program, you’ve probably gone through licensure. Then you learn how to open a private practice. We learn so many things. And there’s this pervasive story that you’re a money person or you’re not, that you’re a math person or you’re not, and that is not true. Money is totally learnable. And actually the math that goes along with money is actually really simple math. It’s actually like arithmetic. So identifying your ability to learn and applying that to money the same way you applied it to learning therapy or learning how to open a private practice will get you so far.
[JOE]
So awesome. Well, Linzy, if people want to connect with you, if they want to take your course or work with you about their money, skills, what’s the best way for them to connect with you?
[LINZY]
The best way to get into our world is on Instagram. It’s money, nuts and bolts on Instagram. And then if they really want to jump into our world, if you’re really ready to start working with your private practice finances and getting them working I have a masterclass, the 4-step framework to getting your business finances totally in order, very succinct title. And that lays out my approach and talks about my course and gives you the building blocks to get started in shifting your relationship with money. So the link for that, I don’t know if we can include it in the show notes, Joe, but it’s also in our bio in Instagram.
[JOE]
Yes, absolutely. Do you want to say that link also or should they just head over to Instagram?
[LINZY]
They should head over to Instagram because it’s a long link and I can’t say it.
[JOE]
Okay. Sounds great. Head over to the Instagram profile or we’ll also put that in the show notes. Linzy, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.
[LINZY]
Thank you, Joe.
[JOE]
Money, money, money. You know, for a long time, like my first couple years of private practice, even though I don’t feel like I have a ton of money hang-ups I would use the business credit card and I would put the receipts in the drawer and then every January I would itemize all those receipts by hand on the dining room table. And now that I have a bookkeeper and an accountant, I just look back at that, how much I could have automated that within QuickBooks and I just didn’t know. We don’t know this stuff. So what Linzy shared today is scratching the surface, but oh my gosh, it gives you so much to start with that. If you aren’t doing these things, it’ll just take that stress off, because I mean, if you don’t know what you’re going to owe for your quarterly taxes and then you’re surprised with it, that’s just no fun.

I remember I had one year I was working with an accountant and I had a better idea of what my amount was that I was going to owe than he did if he get fired after that? He was $30,000 off and if I hadn’t been saving that money and not paying myself out, as much as I thought that at the accountant said I should, that would’ve been stressful to say I don’t have 30K laying around. But I did have 30K laying around. So these money things can just bring up so many different issues inside of us. So make sure you follow Linzy on Instagram. If it seems like a fit, do her course, connect with her.

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Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing week. I’ll talk to you soon.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. We really like it. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.