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Joe Sanok 00:00:00  How long do you spend writing your progress notes? Every day. If it's over 30 minutes, you should check out describe. Describe is a HIPAA compliant. I note taking software that I and many of my students use daily. It saves me 1 or 2 hours a day on my documentation around consulting, and I know it's going to save you more in counseling. Also, it customizes exactly to my own writing style. I recommend that every therapist give it a trial. It's free. Go to describe how to get started for free. Again, that's describe Mediacom to get started for free. This is the practice of the practice podcast with Joe Sana. Session number 1196. I'm Joe and I'm your host. And welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast. We have had some amazing episodes over the last month or two. So many just like amazing guests we've had. we have a whole new way that we're seeking out guests, and it's just really exciting to see things. just getting some amazing guests that are interesting and diverse.

Joe Sanok 00:01:19  And, you know, we talk about how to have a thriving private practice you absolutely love, but we also want to talk with just people that are doing interesting work in the world that supports mental health, that supports, you know, pushing back on bad things in the world and, you know, promoting justice, promoting connections with other people. you know, finding those bright lights wherever they are. And sometimes, you know, a lot of podcasts aimed at therapists, you know, just talk about the business or they just talk about one tiny aspect of running the business. And that's just my curiosity is too broad for that. So this show, we try to, you know, jump all over the place and find some consistent things throughout, different corners of the world. So I'm really excited today to have author Eloise Corvo, who finds inspiration and peace of mind while sulking around her house library, which her husband affectionately calls embodies a Edgar Allan Poe meets Applebee's aesthetic. Eloise has short fiction published in literary magazines like The Corner Bar, and her debut novel, Off the Beaten Path, came out in March through level Best Books.

Joe Sanok 00:02:25  She loves mint chocolate chip ice cream, appreciates a good puzzle and adores her cat gumbo and dog, Martin Short. You can learn more about her. Eloise Corvo. So, Eloise, welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast.

Eloise Corvo 00:02:38  Hi, Joe. Thanks for having me.

Joe Sanok 00:02:40  Yeah, I'm surprised you got through the ranks because I absolutely hate mint chocolate chip ice cream.

Eloise Corvo 00:02:45  Oh, no.

Joe Sanok 00:02:46  I it's so funny because my bio literally says I hate mint in chocolate. And, it's funny how you, you know, we pick up those, like, things that we take a stand on. And, here we are at total opposing sides of the aisle.

Eloise Corvo 00:03:01  Oh, don't hold it against me.

Joe Sanok 00:03:03  I won't. But why do you like the toothpaste flavor in your ice cream?

Eloise Corvo 00:03:07  Okay, I wouldn't say toothpaste. I love the combination of something refreshing and something grounding, like dark chocolate. I think it's a fun vibe mix, so just my take.

Eloise Corvo 00:03:20  But. Oh, man.

Joe Sanok 00:03:21  Makes me want to go puke.

Joe Sanok 00:03:25  Well, okay, so you're an author. so is that something that, you know, you, like, went to, like, undergrad or grad school or that was like, your thing? Or is that something that kind of emerged at a different point in life?

Eloise Corvo 00:03:37  No, later in life. So my education is actually in marine biology and limnology. So the study of.

Joe Sanok 00:03:46  My daughter wants to be a marine biologist, and she is thinking about starting a podcast, interviewing people in that field before she gets into high school. So you're going.

Eloise Corvo 00:03:55  To have to come back to.

Joe Sanok 00:03:57  It. That's killer.

Eloise Corvo 00:03:58  I'd love to. Yeah, absolutely. So. I have a master's in marine biology. And then, you know, there's a lot of technical writing in science, so I think that did sort of serve me in a creative writing, which has been a hobby just for the last handful of years. And taking it one step further with this, with this new novel that's just come out. So.

Eloise Corvo 00:04:19  Yeah, that's.

Joe Sanok 00:04:19  Awesome. I mean, I heard a stat recently and I don't remember where I heard it, but it was something like 60 or 70% of people want to write a book, and something like 3% actually do it. So like, how did you go from being in the 60 to 70%? That is like, yeah, I'd love to write a book to being actually a person that wrote a novel.

Eloise Corvo 00:04:37  It is tough. I think it is definitely an act of discipline more than anything. And so just waking up every morning and saying, yes, I'm going to spend time working on this thing that will not be finished for a very long time is is hard to do. And so I started writing, longer form fiction, like, you know, novellas, short stories into this book. actually, during the pandemic. So 2020, 2021 where I had the time and was actively looking for safe hobbies that I could do at home, that, you know, weren't necessarily involving a lot of other people.

Eloise Corvo 00:05:15  And so this book, the first draft of this book actually came during a winter up here in Traverse City that was very cold, a little harsh. So I was inside anyway. And that really helped the alleviate the time constraints, I think.

Joe Sanok 00:05:31  So when I think fiction, I mean, I think that there's like a lot of ways that someone could enter into writing a book, and I'm sure that the approaches are as unique as the authors themselves. But like for you, what was helpful to get organized? When I think about, you know, I did Thursdays, The New Friday, which is nonfiction. And to me that made sense. It's like I'm building upon each chapter and thinking about the science and stories and things like that. But when I think about fiction, it's like oftentimes there's just so many plots going on. I feel like I would just, like lose track of everything. Like, how did you stay organized with your ideas in the actual process of writing?

Eloise Corvo 00:06:07  Yeah. So they actually in the fiction writers world, we call that dichotomy like Panzers, like you fly by the seat of your pants as you're writing or plotters.

Eloise Corvo 00:06:18  and I write mysteries primarily, which are plot heavy, right? Like, it's kind of hard to just stumble upon a good mystery plot with twists and clues at appropriate time. So I have pretty, pretty lengthy outlines before I start actually drafting a new book. and that is almost a short story in and of itself that then just gets fleshed out. So I will take like, for example, this book took a few weeks to really get all the story beats that I wanted. Some of the key clues that I wanted to plant, you know, who are the red herrings that I want to make sure are really fleshed out, well-rounded characters? That's all figured out beforehand. And then when I go down to sit and write, it really is, like I said, that discipline of like, all right, I'm going to try and write a chapter today. It's going to be rough and not the prettiest thing, but at least there'll be something there that I can go back and edit later, so that's certain.

Joe Sanok 00:07:18  Now are there. Were there any things in the book that like, you know, I've heard of? People say that sometimes the characters surprise you, like, like Alex, your husband and I are in improv together, and it's like, you know, there's times when I'm like, start with a character and then stuff happens. I'm like, where did that come from? It was like a different plane of reality that I got to embody this character, but it didn't feel like it was anything my idea. Like, were there things that your characters did that you're like, that's amazing. And that didn't feel like that came from me?

Eloise Corvo 00:07:47  Yes. It's so fun when that it's almost like a little bit of a self-discovery to, you know, with like where my head is at when I'm drafting. So, in this book there is an awesome character that is. Her name is Charlotte Roth and she is a frenemy to our protagonist. She's sort of a foil in sorts and just sort of like a town busybody that we love to hate.

Eloise Corvo 00:08:11  And she was not in my original plan for the story at all. But when I started out, when I started to sit down and actually write it, she just sort of spilled out of me, which was like, oh, I should do some reflecting on why that sort of came out today. but yeah, those surprises are a lot of fun.

Joe Sanok 00:08:30  yeah. Well, give us a little bit of a summary of the book itself, and then I want to hear more about, like, the psychology of the characters. And, you know, we have a ton of therapists listening, like your own personal development. But let's hear a little bit about the book.

Eloise Corvo 00:08:43  Yeah. So the book is a murder mystery. It's a cozy mystery. For those of you familiar with shows like Only Murders in the Building or Agatha Christie books, it's sort of that vibe. So it takes place up, in Traverse City area where I live, where Joe is, and a fictional state park that is 40mi² of wild dunes and forests.

Eloise Corvo 00:09:07  and follows the head Park ranger. Her name is Marty Lazo, and she's coming off of a really bad breakup and throwing herself into her work. Sort of a unhealthy coping mechanism, we'll say. in the throes of all of this. Her job is on the line with budget cuts and, you know, all kinds of chaos happening. She finds a dead body on the trail and is sort of forced into helping solve this murder as a way to preserve this life that she's built for herself. So it's a fun story. It's, a trilogy. So this is book one of three.

Joe Sanok 00:09:42  Oh, wow. So what? I love that it takes place in northern Michigan and, a place that I know and love. So, take us through. Just. Are there any things with the characters that, psychologically, maybe from your own life, informed them. Or it doesn't have to be like your own stuff, but like, where did you draw the nuance of the characters and what kind of personal development do you.

Joe Sanok 00:10:04  Did you enjoy seeing with them?

Eloise Corvo 00:10:07  Yeah, so I've been in therapy for a decade now. Almost. I've had a pretty bad anxiety disorder that started when I was a teenager, had some pretty crazy panic attacks and, you know, had some unhealthy coping mechanisms that I'd developed over time and really have put in a lot of work to dig into the root causes of that and, you know, create healthy alternatives for myself. And writing has turned out to be a part of that journey and a really good outlet, I think, for me to process emotion and and think about my experiences in different ways. and so Maddie, our main character, also has an anxiety issue that stems from this breakup stems from insecurities that she's faced and sort of. Abandonment issues. And she develops this like tapping a ticking mechanism where she. Like, is constantly fidgeting and tapping her fingers and counting seconds. So she. She has this, like, need for control. that that is, definitely a moment of growth. That happens throughout the book as she's faced with these increasingly tumultuous situations.

Eloise Corvo 00:11:25  So definitely, some, some direct inspiration from my life into. Her a little bit in that regard.

Joe Sanok 00:11:33  Yeah. How much did you draw from friends or family members or. kind of collective things that you see versus like just kind of. Coming up with characters from scratch.

Eloise Corvo 00:11:42  I think honestly, like everything is drawn from somewhere, you know? we're all going through life with our own quirks and a compilation of our own experience and how we handle experience. And so I think my relationships with other people have manifested into this book in many ways, or things that I've observed for sure. Like I personally have never had this finger tapping ticking issue, but I know of others that have. And so, I, I can't imagine that I am clever or smarter, smart enough to just create anything, right? Like, I think I think we write through the lens of our experience. So even if I can't articulate exactly every individual piece, I'm sure it's from somewhere.

Eloise Corvo 00:12:35  Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:12:36  And for you, how did how did this personally help you grow?

Eloise Corvo 00:12:40  Yeah.

Eloise Corvo 00:12:41  So, you know, like I said, anxiety has been something I've lived with for a long time and have tried in a lot of different ways to, not just cope with, but really like overcome and sort of change my route behavior, my route response to different things. And I think I've used writing as a tool, as like a self-analysis tool of really taking stock of what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling. Putting that from abstract thought into concrete words on paper is a really helpful exercise for me. it takes sort of the, like, scary nebulous of my mind that sometimes it's hard to pick apart specific ideas or figure out why I'm feeling certain things. But when I sit down and actually try and write it out into words made of real letters, then then that really untangles the web and and makes things a little clearer. So not only do I write fiction, but I've also taken up journaling, you know, for self-expression and and just sort of. Yeah. Using using words as a fuel for clarity has been really helpful for me.

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Joe Sanok 00:15:08  Like, what's that look like for you?

Eloise Corvo 00:15:10  I don't journal every day, but whenever I'm, I get, like, I have a hard time sometimes understanding why I'm feeling upset or anxious, especially anxious. It just sort of like I get this sort of frenetic energy and, and it is a panicky feeling. And so when I'm in those moments, I try and break out my journal, sit down and just free write. Not necessarily, you know, trying to think consciously about picking apart this thing that I'm feeling or probable causes, but just whatever comes out, comes out. And that is really helpful because I will often like my mind takes over and I can just the the pieces come together and I can start articulating the whys and the actual specific emotions, which is really nice. So free writing, I would say that's really like how it looks for me. If I'm trying to process something, I will try and sit down, pick up my pen and just see what happens. in terms of fiction writing, like I in this book, you know, there's some, experience with, you know, breakup and some trauma not directly mentioned, but just like in the past, it's referenced.

Eloise Corvo 00:16:35  And so I think these bigger things that we carry with us through life, like the loss of a loved one or, you know, like a really bad breakup when you're younger. Those things I think those experiences carry with us forever. And and I found fiction writing can be helpful in in just exploring what life is like, living with these things, living with trauma, living with these experiences that we don't necessarily enjoy, enjoy looking back on. it's a nice way to just explore those from different angles.

Joe Sanok 00:17:11  Well, you said you've been in therapy and you've used writing really as a way to kind of self develop and get deeper. what do you wish your therapist would have done in regards to using writing in the clinical sessions, or is homework outside of it?

Eloise Corvo 00:17:27  I sort of brought writing to my therapy. It was not something that my therapist suggested I try, and so I feel like if it were presented as an option, to me, I could have been doing this for much longer. Maybe we'd be sitting here talking about my fourth or fifth book instead of my first one, you know? So I feel thankful that I sort of stumbled upon it myself.

Eloise Corvo 00:17:54  but if it I would have loved, I would have been receptive to to that as something to try out. I'm sure everyone is different, right? So maybe others wouldn't latch on, but having it been presented and maybe some like actual exercises around what to write about could be really helpful I think to a lot of people.

Eloise Corvo 00:18:16  Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:18:17  Now, you know I know that like the non-fiction world, the way people get books out there is either, you know, self-publish or, you know, having an agent that then, you know, takes your book proposal around and then you meet with publishers and then, you know, hopefully they make an offer and then, you write the book because you kind of sketch out the outline, some chapters, but you don't have to write the whole thing. then like a year later, your book comes out, in the, in the fiction world. if there's therapists that are like, hey, I would love to do this, but I have no idea what that process looks like.

Joe Sanok 00:18:50  What's the process look like in regards to, like, do you write the book first or do you sketch it out and then approach publishers or like, how's that? How's that side of it work with the actual process of getting a book published?

Eloise Corvo 00:19:03  It is much different than the nonfiction world, which is surprising to me as I explored this journey myself. you know, coming from academia and like science literature, I would have thought it would have been similar to your experience where you shop around a proposal. but no, you have to write the book before anything else. So you need a really solid draft. that is not necessarily professionally edited by somebody else, but, you know, free of typos and errors with a well fleshed out story. Then you can do one of three things. Option one is self-publish, which is viable. A lot of people make awesome careers on self-publishing. Now. option two is traditional publishing, so there are really only four major publishers out in the world. Like if you were to walk into a Barnes and Noble, I would say 99% of the books in there are published through one of four companies.

Eloise Corvo 00:20:02  in order to publish with those companies, you need an agent. So you then shop around your book to literary agents through what's called the querying process. You write a letter like a cover letter. You send them chapters of your book, and then they sort of sign on, sign you as a client, and then they go shop around your book. Option three is sort of a hybrid of the two. That's the route that I took with off the beaten path that is to go with an indie publisher. So these are not one of the big four companies. They're smaller operations that usually stick with a specific genre or some niche. So level Best, who I'm publishing with only does true crime and mystery thrillers. They're experts in like one small piece of the literary world, and you can shop them directly as an author. I didn't need a literary agent to work with them. A lot of literary agents work with them as well, but it's just not a requirement like it is one of the big four.

Eloise Corvo 00:21:02  So yeah, you kind of have indie self or trad traditional publishing as, as optional routes to go.

Joe Sanok 00:21:12  Now, what did you learn in that process of going with an indie publisher?

Eloise Corvo 00:21:16  I thought the indie route was really great for this book for a couple of reasons. one, I am not a huge name. Right? I'm not Stephen King. people don't necessarily know Eloise Corvo yet. It's my first book, and so the barrier to entry I found much lower, which was really nice to still get a published book that is professionally edited with a cover designer. And, and, you know, you have your publishers in your corner then compared to self-publishing, when you have to do literally everything yourself. So I thought that was really great. it's still a humbling exercise, I think. Any of these routes is that there's a lot of rejection along the way. So if you're querying agents, you can expect, even if it's the most phenomenal book, still a lot of no's just for for reasons out of your control.

Eloise Corvo 00:22:12  same with publishers, right? It's just not going to be a fit for everybody. So there's a lot of humbling experience. a lot of, of minimizing the ego's control over myself. which is a good exercise. Right? It's, it's it's helping you look at what's really important in life and where happiness comes from. And that is not external validation. So that's what I learnt and continue to learn in the, in the author world.

Joe Sanok 00:22:44  Well, and when it comes to the actual process of writing, If someone's out there listening and they're like, man, I would love to do a therapy thriller or something, that maybe it has nothing to do with therapy. what advice would you have on the process of writing and, like, how to find that creativity? How to like any hacks you found that worked for you that may work for other people?

Eloise Corvo 00:23:04  Yeah. Going for walks has been crucial in my creative process. getting away from screens, getting away from distractions and just taking a walk. Putting on, like, instrumental music and making sure that you have, like, a little notepad with you.

Eloise Corvo 00:23:21  You can jot down ideas. It's almost like the cliche, like shower thoughts, right? Like when you're not thinking about something actively, your brain kind of kicks in. And so if you can maximize that amount of time where where you're just sort of like ambient thinking about these things that can that's helped me unlock a lot of like, plot holes that I've had, or finding the right hook to a story. the other piece of advice that I would say is just don't give up. Like like you said, Joe. A lot of people want to write a book, but not a lot. Not a lot of people finish one. And that's really just because it takes a long time. There's there's not a whole lot of, like, instant gratification in this process. and so just being able to see the light at the end of the tunnel and saying, I'm going to keep chugging along on this story is really the make or break. I think, it's just choosing to do it. Really.

Joe Sanok 00:24:20  Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:24:20  Well, Eloise, the last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

Eloise Corvo 00:24:27  I think writing is a really valid exercise in therapy, and it's really helped my journey. So maybe consider offering it to your clients as well. and if you want to write a book, you're the only thing stopping you. So I hope I hope we have more authors in the therapy world.

Joe Sanok 00:24:44  So awesome. Well, where can people get your book? You said before we started rolling that you got a discount on your website for our listeners too. So tell us how they can grab the book.

Eloise Corvo 00:24:53  Yeah. So this book is available where all books are sold. You can get it online at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Com if you'd like to support your indie bookstore near you, which I recommend, you can ask them. They should be able to stock it for you if it's not on the shelf already. Additionally, you can get signed copies on my website, which is Eloise, dot com and Joe, listeners of your podcast.

Eloise Corvo 00:25:18  I can offer 20% discount with the code practice 20 at checkout.

Joe Sanok 00:25:25  So awesome. Thanks so much for being on the show.

Eloise Corvo 00:25:27  Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe. This is great.

Joe Sanok 00:25:36  Yeah. It's funny. I started writing a few novels in college, and actually in high school, I started writing one two, and they all got about a third of the way in, and then they just kind of died out. And so, it's interesting because I do think that actually, as I was listening to Eloise, they helped me sort out some feelings and some thoughts and some characters that were things I was sorting out, and maybe just the act of writing, maybe did its job more than the completion of the book. so, you know, I love making up stories. It's funny because Eloise, you know, we talked very briefly there about improv that I started this improv group called Red Trillium, where, it's sort of like a murder mystery that is improvised from stage, like a 45 minute play where we ask the audience for a ridiculous murder weapon in a ridiculous place to get murdered.

Joe Sanok 00:26:24  So we've done, like, an eggplant and a lighthouse. We've done a microphone and a laser tag arena. And, just that creative act of finding twists and turns is just so interesting to me. I haven't found ways to really, like, bring that world as much into my practice or the practice world, but I'm sure there's something there. Maybe we'll figure that out in this coming year. And, you know, we couldn't do this show without our amazing sponsors. Like gusto. You know gusto. You know, as a small business owner, for me, paying and taking care of the team and getting, you know, the benefits and taxes and all of that stuff is just really hard to figure out sometimes. So gusto makes it way easier. And right now, our listeners are getting three months totally free. Just head on over to Guster for Joe. It's where we run our payroll. Again, that's Guster. Joe, thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain.

Joe Sanok 00:27:20  Have a great day. I'll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band silence. Sexy for that intro music. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.