83% of storage used … If you run out, you can’t create, edit, and upload files. Get 100 GB of storage for R 34.99 ZAR 0 for 1 month. Joe Sanok 00:00:00 What are you doing? October 1st through third. I want to hang out with you just south of Nashville, Tennessee, down in Franklin. I’m going to be key noting the mental Health Marketing Conference, and I would love for you to be there. We are also sponsoring the clinical track, where there are going to be tons of amazing trainings, all for you in private practice. This is the national gathering for marketers and clinicians in mental and behavioral health. You’re not going to want to miss this awesome conference. It’s the one conference I’m keynote this year and you can read more over at MH marketing. Org. Also, Steve over at Mental Health Marketing has given 25% off to any practice of the practice. Listeners that want to come to this, whether you’re coming in person or online, you’re going to want to use promo Code Joe at checkout to get 25% off. I would love for you to come in person for my closing keynote on Thursday, October 3rd at the Mental Health Marketing Conference, but if you can come online, that works as well. Joe Sanok 00:00:56 Can’t wait to hang out with you in Tennessee again, that’s MH marketing. Org and use promo code Joe at checkout to hang out with me October 1st through third 2024. This is the practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Santa. Session number 1028. I’m Joe Cenac, your host, and welcome to the practice of the Practice Podcast, where we help you build a thriving practice you absolutely love. You know, both sides of that are so important. We want you to thrive. We want you to make money. We want you to be, you know, rocking it out and having people referring to you. But we also want you to absolutely love it. I know when I had mental wellness counseling, for me, it was a practice that I really loved. I loved the design of the website. I loved the design of the office. for me though, over time, as I did more and more of this consulting and podcasting stuff, I realized that I didn’t love the counseling anymore. And so that’s why I sold it back in 2019 to Nicole, one of my clinicians that worked for me. Joe Sanok 00:02:08 She’s taken it to a totally different level than I was taking it because she’s focused on it. And, you know, I think that’s so normal to level up in the ways that we’re excited. The person you are today is probably and hopefully different than the person you were a year or five years ago, that you level up in different ways and think through, you know, what do I want out of my career? This life is short. And, you know, we get to, do all sorts of things with it. And there’s lots of ways to make money, and we don’t have to do things that we don’t find that we’re aligned with anymore. Now, part of that is letting people down, too. Sometimes we let people down, by leveling up. I remember I had a supervision group and there weren’t and aren’t a ton of LPC supervisors here in Michigan. And for me, I had a supervision group. And, you know, through that I had about 16 people that I was supervising for their license with individual and group, and it hired another person to come in. Joe Sanok 00:03:02 And part of it, though, was letting go of that and realizing that really worked for me for a time, but no longer does it work for me. and so sometimes that leveling up looks different for each of us, but we have to let go of things as well as, you know, evaluate. Where are we headed? you know, as I talk about this, I’m really excited to have Doctor Rita Walker on the show today. Doctor Rita is a clinical psychologist, award winning professor, and a leading scholar who has published more than 60 scientific papers on black mental health and resilience. Doctor Walker’s impact has expanded beyond academia with the release of her first book, The Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health, as well as the release of The Unapologetic Workbook and her newest book, No Racial Elephants in the Therapy Room, Doctor Walker delivers practical advice to create psychological fortitude in everyday life while also guiding mental health professionals to provide culturally affirming care for Black and African American clients. Her charismatic vision and practical approach has led to numerous appearances on Good Morning America, The Breakfast Club, and NPR, to name a few. Joe Sanok 00:04:09 Her expertise has been cited on The New York Times, Washington Post, LA times, and Houston Chronicle, among others. Doctor Rita, welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:04:20 Hi, Joe. Thank you so very much for having me. I’m really excited about this conversation. Joe Sanok 00:04:25 Oh, man. And, you know, before we started recording, you said that you were moving to Michigan. So I’m excited that we are having good quality talent moving, to the Great Lakes State. we joke that you’re going to have to learn this if you’re living here, that four out of five Great Lakes choose Michigan. So, welcome to Michigan. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:04:44 I love it, I love it. I’m certainly even looking forward to learning this. you know, the new landscape. I have lived in the South for the majority of my life. So living in Michigan will be different and a little cooler. But, I’m up for an adventure. Joe Sanok 00:04:59 Yeah. Well, before we dive into the interview, I’m going to give you a quick Michigan tutorial. Joe Sanok 00:05:03 the West coast of Michigan. So that’s like Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, Traverse City. that tends to be more like small beach towns and, you know, really like great beach places. Detroit area. Ann Arbor, Lansing, has like a great food scene, especially Dearborn. You’re going to be by that, has the largest Middle Eastern population outside of the Middle East. So if you like Middle Eastern food, Dearborn is the place to go. And then Michigan’s Upper Peninsula across the bridge is just like wilderness. It’s crazy up there. So a lot of really cool places to adventure in Michigan for you. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:05:38 Yeah, I really can’t. Can’t wait. Once, once we figure out how to get all of our stuff onto a truck. Oh, man. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:05:45 Wait. Joe Sanok 00:05:45 Moving. I hate moving, so I don’t envy that side of it. So cool. Well, you’ve got a new book out. I’m so excited to hear about no racial elephants in the therapy room. Let’s just start with, you know, having having also written a book. Joe Sanok 00:05:59 sometimes the seeds of a book are years, if not decades before the book actually comes to fruition. Tell me some of the inspiration for this book. And like, what’s been germinating for a while that landed in this book. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:06:13 It really is an interesting story of how I got here, and to be sure, I didn’t have any intentions of writing any book ever. And no racial elephants in the therapy room is actually the third. And so what happened a little bit of kind of background is that I have been a university professor for the past two decades, and part of my responsibility has been training clinical psychologists, future clinical psychologists, to be able to provide, you know, independent clinical care. what happened? Fast forward, you know, to 5 or 6 years ago, something that happened that was related to my therapy. I mean, my research was the suicide death rate increasing for African American children when it was actually decreasing for whiter European American children aged 5 to 11, which is which is unheard of. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:07:03 and my thinking was, well, somebody needs to talk about this. And that’s how the first book came about. Well, in full disclosure, I didn’t have the vision for no racial elephants. But the editors at Pepsi Publishing, having read the first book, said, you know what? I think you would be great to write a book for therapists. And I was kind of like, are you sure it was? It was not on my list of things to do, but the more I thought about it, I realized one, this is kind of what I’ve been doing, just not in book form. But then also, I really enjoy helping therapists think about how do I say the thing that I need to be able to say to help the person in front of me and in a way that doesn’t take away from their experience or, you know, offend them in some way. And I see the fear for some therapist. It’s like, you want me to talk about race. Yeah, yeah, you have to. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:08:04 and so I’ve been doing the work. And so, you know, the process of writing the book was actually, honestly easier than I would have anticipated because I just pulled on what I have been doing for years now. Joe Sanok 00:08:16 no. Joe Sanok 00:08:17 I’m with you. When it comes to writing a book. Feeling easier when you’re pulling from that stuff you’ve been working on for a while? now, I think that that fear is, is a reflection of what we’re seeing in society. And, you know, even the lack of civility or discourse or being able to appropriately disagree or have debates with people, you know, whether it’s about race or any other topics that people disagree on. I would love for you to just give us kind of a quick masterclass on the book in regards to kind of what do you cover? What are some best practices? what are hotspots like? Wherever you want to take it. It’s just like a quick master class, and I’ll jump in and, you know, ask follow up questions as we go. Joe Sanok 00:08:58 But we’d love to just let you unleash and just, you know, share whatever you want to share in regards to kind of the flow of the book and some of those best practices you’re talking about. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:09:06 Yeah. You know, one of the interesting things that you mentioned just about our society, and I think it drives us nuts as mental health professionals who are trained to be able to listen and to have uncomfortable conversations. But somehow in our society that just seems non-existent. And it’s it is baffling to me because there is so much miscommunication and under communication that just keeps people from being able to arrive at just, you know, humane kinds of conclusions, that allow us all to exist together. It is it is the most Fascinating and sometimes sad, honestly thing for me. But with the book and even starting with the title No Racial Elephants in the Therapy Room, I always talked to trainees about not avoiding the things that make them uncomfortable as therapists, that the therapy room can’t be a microcosm of our greater society where we engage in color blindness. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:10:10 I think because we we think it’s polite. it’s not nice to talk about race. like, we cannot do that in therapy, and especially when it comes to race. And so and by the way, in case I forget to say this later, there is research that shows that when we adopt these colorblind sort of dispositions, it undermines our capacity to create and generate empathy for our clients. Like like there is research that that shows this. but in the book, I talk a. Joe Sanok 00:10:41 Quick follow up question on that. So what are areas that you would say are people acting colorblind that that they maybe think are normal in the therapy sessions but are actually harmful? Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:10:54 Ooh. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:10:56 Well, one of the things that okay, so, Jo, you got to know my mind goes in a thousand directions with every question. I love it that you ask. And so I have to settle on one, like, pick a thought. so one of the things that I think we may even get from our multicultural classes is the importance of talking to a client about race. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:11:14 But then how do you do that? You know, because we’re not supposed to just talk about race, right? That’s awkward. And so we don’t want to have a person in front of us who has indicated as an example on their intake form, they identify as Black or African American. The therapist is not black or African American. So there is a disconnect between the therapist and the client and the therapist or the client may be talking about something that is culturally meaningful, that has cultural significance. So maybe they are, as an example, a second generation Nigerian American, and they’re talking about their family and how in their culture, you know, family matters. But then the therapist doesn’t ask any more questions about that. So so what does that mean for you? What does that look like for you? How has that affected you? Know, your interactions with your family members, with your friends, trying to get the full picture? Because when we don’t get the full picture and we maybe make assumptions, maybe we presume that what the client is saying is related to something we read in a textbook, but we don’t ask questions about that. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:12:24 That can be problematic and undermine the case conceptualization, and also how we propose to navigate that client through their therapy or through whatever intervention is most going to be most helpful for them. Joe Sanok 00:12:37 So it sounds like taking some time to kind of pace out and be curious and dig into it. Whatever someone’s saying to to dig in and see, like, how does that look for you? Like, how does that manifest itself in the reason you’re presenting for therapy instead of just like, okay, so you said you’re the second generation Nigerian, then that means, you know, to just blaze past that isn’t allowing them to really dig into the depth of of maybe what that looks like for them in a unique way. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:13:04 Yes, absolutely. And I think it can be easy to do because, you know, we, what’s the word? I’m looking for high achieving individuals. You know, sometimes we forget our training and we just want to look like we know what we’re doing. And that can can be problematic, especially for the relationship between the therapist and the client. Joe Sanok 00:13:25 Yeah. And I know that like, you know, a lot of clinicians may think of themselves as being progressive or open minded or these different kind of terms they may use about themselves. But then it’s like, you know, I’ve got the message. Do your own research. Don’t expect your black friend to teach you about their black culture. And so I think that that idea of wanting to do our own work outside, then probably, you know, if I was still practicing, could mute someone’s ability to say, well, what’s that look like to you? Because you don’t want to kind of step on someone’s toes and have them feel like they’re teaching you about culture that you should be educated on, but then also it’s like you’re you’re saying, drill into that, be curious. Allow them to talk openly for for other clinicians that may feel what I just kind of shared. What would you suggest? What should they do to to push into talking about race more, to also acknowledge their own biases or privilege? Like what would you suggest in regards to in those actual therapy sessions? Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:14:22 Well, it starts in the very first session and setting expectations. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:14:25 And so presumably everyone fills out their demographics form. They mentioned as an example that they identify as African-American or maybe they say black, you know, depending on what they say. Following up with that in the first session, You indicated here that your ethnicity is African American or whatever it is that they say, you know. Tell me what that means for you. Or maybe starting with. Is that an important part of who you are and how you see yourself? Because that person may actually very well say like, well, yeah, it’s it’s a label, but it doesn’t really mean anything to me. And then that signals to the therapist that they don’t necessarily have to necessarily. There’s some nuances there, but they they don’t have to center that in how they’re thinking about the client. Whereas for someone who says, well, this is really important to me. And again, I love the word of curiosity. Of course, you know, finding out more. So does this impact how they function at work? Does it impact their relationships? Does it impact their their faith? Because for a lot of African Americans, even if they don’t consider themselves as religious people, they believe in God and believe in a higher power. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:15:31 And that becomes important as a source of strength and resilience that the therapist can potentially bring into the therapy. But they also have to say that to the client. Like, is that something that you would want for us to think about in your therapy? And to be sure, I don’t identify as African American. You know, maybe it’s a point of comedy. and that’s assuming that the therapist isn’t African American, that they say I don’t identify, you know, with the culture. And if it’s okay with you, sometimes I may ask questions just to make sure that we’re on the same page, because even if the therapist is African American, that doesn’t mean that they have the exact same experience as that client. And so they need to understand the client from their own perspective. But setting expectations, excuse me, setting expectations that they may have to ask questions from time to time, and also as they develop their conceptualization of how they’re going to move forward with therapy, talking to the client about how they integrate who that client is in that therapy and collaborate to make sure that the client sees, feel seen and, feel seen and heard. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:16:42 I think I’ve been talking too much already today. Joe Sanok 00:16:44 No, not at all, I love it. Joe Sanok 00:16:54 Whatever stage your practice is at, we know using great resources with patients is crucial to helping them get better faster. As a practice owner, I never compromised on this, but finding the right materials was a constant challenge. It’s so time consuming, especially with everything else to juggle. 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Now if you were able to reshape what the multicultural counseling classes across the nation taught. What are some areas that you would keep, and what are some areas that you would say? Here’s what we’re seeing. That would be maybe a better way of teaching new students how to do this kind of work. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:18:44 Well, I would start by not having one multicultural course, and I think it’s true for a lot of people. It was certainly true for me. I had one multicultural course that was required in my graduate training. we had one course that was elective, that was related to African-Americans. But it wasn’t a therapy course per se. It was more of a seminar in African American, you know, health and wellbeing overall. And so for one, we have to have multiple courses. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:19:15 We have to have courses for people who have different identities, for people who may identify as LGBTQ, who may be dealing with, you know, when to come out and how to navigate with family when we have one multicultural. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:19:29 Course. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:19:29 Doesn’t get at the nuances of how to interface or or how to generate hypotheses of what may be going on with our different clients. And clients aren’t oftentimes going to come in and say, I’m dealing with racism. the therapist sometimes has to unpack that based on their knowledge that maybe they’ve gained across several courses. Ideally we can we can keep a multicultural course, but we also need to be able, in our interventions course, in our psychopathology course, and our methods courses in all of them to be able to talk about how do I pivot, what I’m learning to be able to adapt it to different groups. And that’s one of the reasons that I had to write this book is because, you know, people are complex and people who are oftentimes hyper invisible or even more complex. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:20:24 And so we need to be able to figure out like, okay, what do I do with this information? And I hear people saying this all the time, like, well, well, this is nice. Like, okay, different groups of people have multigenerational families. Well, what does that mean for the therapy? And that’s what we need for our coursework to be able to help therapists and emerging therapists to be able to achieve. Joe Sanok 00:20:48 Yeah. I know for myself and I know this isn’t you know, that’s something that everyone can do. But I was going through grad school you know in my early 20s. And so I didn’t have kids, I wasn’t partnered. but I did a lot of travel outside of the time that I was in school. And so, like, I worked in Haiti for three different times and volunteered at a shelter for people with Aids in New Orleans for a while, and, like, was able to have just part of my personal learning, be just experiences around cultures that were way different than my own. Joe Sanok 00:21:18 and being from Northern Michigan that, you know, is pretty darn white. for me, that at least opened the door for any sense of any culture, all being, you know, homogenous or, you know, the same across the board was just thrown out the window. And there was also things that were consistent throughout them. But to really realize putting myself in uncomfortable situations where I was in the minority personally helped me to just understand some empathy in that area while still recognizing my own privilege. When you think about things that current therapists can do, whether it’s in the sessions or in their own life, what can they do to be more? You know, I don’t want to necessarily use the term culturally competent, but just to just be better clinicians to diverse populations. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:22:05 It’s funny you should mention that, because I actually one of the chapters in the book, and I actually just realized that I didn’t do the masterclass on everything that the book comes. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:22:13 I know we. Joe Sanok 00:22:13 Just got talking, which is totally. Joe Sanok 00:22:15 Fine. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:22:16 Yeah, we were just enjoying ourselves. but I have a chapter on, you know, resisting the urge for cultural competence and instead embracing cultural humility because cultural competence suggests that there’s like this checklist like, okay, I did this and I did that, I did that course. I got my continuing education. Okay, great. Check. I’m done. And to be sure, I think most people know that even when they can check those boxes, they don’t feel like they can still work competently with people from different groups because there’s a lot of fear and angst. But when we embrace cultural humility, what that suggests is that there is this lifelong process, essentially, of recognizing one’s shortcomings, being willing to experiment and to go into and not even go into immerse oneself in a different culture so that they have that perspective, because it absolutely translates with different clients who can pick up on, oh, yeah, you get it. You’ve been in a space where you didn’t necessarily feel like you were in your comfort zone. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:23:22 And. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:23:23 You get it. And we need to have more therapists who are, yes, willing to immerse themselves in different cultural cultures, different contexts, where they maybe even are in control and have a general, expectation of experimentation. And this is one of the things that I always encourage of therapists, is to be willing to experiment. So, you know, we have this game plan. We don’t know if it’s going to work. We don’t know if the client’s going to be responsive. We don’t know what is going to happen. But the therapist has to be able to model doing things differently, because I don’t know how we expect our clients to embrace change when the therapist isn’t willing to do the same. Joe Sanok 00:24:06 hum, hum. I want to. Joe Sanok 00:24:08 Circle back and I’m going. I want to take what you said about therapy, where you’re following your curiosity, and I want to follow my own curiosity. you said you don’t identify as African American. I would love to hear a little bit more about that. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:24:23 Oh, did I say that that was. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:24:25 You did. That wasn’t intentional. But what I will say is sometimes it varies. So I do identify as African American. in some context I identify as black. It it absolutely varies. I think when I’m in, in settings where, I don’t know, I just feel more relaxed than I’m more comfortable just saying I’m a black woman. And in maybe other more professional settings, I might say African American. I don’t assume them to be the same for other people. There are individuals I mentioned earlier about the example of someone being Nigerian American. That person may or may not identify as African American. They probably identify as black. But these are the kinds of questions and conversations that the therapist has with the client in that first session. Just understanding who the client is, how they identify, and what that means for them. Joe Sanok 00:25:20 When, when a therapist screws up. So you know maybe I heard wrong how you said something about African Americans. So say I was your therapist and I said that and like, you know when someone screws up around race, I think that there can be all sorts of things that come up. Joe Sanok 00:25:36 how do you recommend, therapists recover from that? and I know there’s not going to be a one size fits all. It’s going to be situational. There’s going to be all sorts of factors that go into it. But any guiding principles in I think if we can talk about recovery, it makes it easier to want to have difficult conversations knowing that, hey, I have a method or some approaches to come out of this and, you know, have us all be stronger and own screw ups. are there any suggestions that you have around recovering from from screw ups and then how to step into those conversations even more? Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:26:11 And I, I addressed that in the book also because I think that therapists may be more inclined To try something different and to be present in the moment if they know it’s not a death sentence. because understandably, if folks think, gosh, if this doesn’t go perfectly, then I’m going to be ruined as a therapist. And that that just isn’t the case. We have to check our own thoughts sometimes. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:26:38 But then also, as you mentioned already, being willing to own it. So as an example, say the therapist does say something that is a microaggression to the client. One of the ones that I hear most common is the therapist suggesting to the client that some experience of theirs was interpreted wrong. Maybe it was in your head to some degree. And I know that CBT and social media has been kind of getting some flack about, you know, gaslighting and things of that nature. And the therapist has to be honest about whether or not they have certain biases, whether or not they have certain values. And that’s something that has to happen outside of therapy. But if there is a an error that is made in the session that communicates that, you know, maybe you were just too sensitive, which is which is awful for someone who is in pain to hear that maybe they were just too sensitive because it has brought the outside into therapy, and is one of the reasons why African-Americans oftentimes look for other black therapists. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:27:43 But say. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:27:44 You know, to own. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:27:46 It. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:27:46 I know that that is something that is painful, and that it came out of my mouth was not helpful at all for our relationship. And I sincerely apologize for that. And asking them, you know, if they could can can we work through it? You know, asking the therapist, I mean, asking the client, you know, is this something that we can work through? I’m certainly motivated, you know, and communicating to the client what it is that they were trying to say. It is my absolute hope that no therapist who is is listening to us, will say this, you know, tomorrow or the next day or next week or next month, but maybe someone realizes like, oh my goodness, I said this recently to a client and they didn’t come back. Okay. It happens. You know, we can course correct for the future and apologize in the moment. And I do think that and I talk about CBT. So I identify strongly as a CBT therapist that’s for sure. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:28:46 And so in the book I talk about how one engages in cognitive behavioral therapy without essentially nullifying the client’s experiences, because we know that inherent in CBT is saying, you know, you engaged in some cognitive error or some distorted thought, and that is problematic for people who are systematically oppressed. And the way that we attend to that is to be able to say to the the client, I realize I’m back off course, but thank you for rolling. Joe Sanok 00:29:18 No, actually, this this is going into kind of the question that I was thinking, as you were saying, that because. Okay. Yeah. It’s great. No, you read my mind. Well done. Perfect. Because part of because part of being a therapist is, you know, challenging someone’s norm because, you know, in coming to therapy, a, a person who, whoever they are is recognizing what I’m doing isn’t working, whether that’s my mindset, my marriage, my whatever. So challenging your norm is part of the therapeutic process, while also recognizing that some of the manners in which we can do that can be microaggressions. Joe Sanok 00:29:50 So as you were saying that, I’m like, oh my gosh, I could totally have seen myself saying that to clients. and thinking through like, shit, did I, like, do these microaggressions because I tended in general to like, align with, you know, CBT and challenging our norms? I do that with my friends. And it’s just I would say in general, I do that with myself. And so then you jumped right into starting to answer that and said, you’re off course. And actually you were just answering what I was already thinking. So I’m going to let you continue. Yeah. So CBT is challenging these mindsets black and white thinking all of these different things. Yeah. How do you bring those two together. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:30:26 Well you know I also talk in the book about not letting go of our training that that we are able to use guided discovery to get our clients to a different perspective. And so in those circumstances, we have to start with hearing the whole story, starting with curiosity. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:30:42 See, after a while we see how these things all build on each other. You know, starting with curiosity. Tell me more about what happened. We can’t intervene if we don’t know what happened. Tell me who all was involved. What did they say? You know, what were you doing in the moment? How did you react to this? You know, because part of CBT is being able to flesh out some of the automated things that happen in our clients minds and in their physical bodies. Take me back to that moment and, you know, give the client an opportunity to parse all of their experience in a, in a situation or circumstance that was that was upsetting. And one of the things that I do in the book is, is these dialogues, you know, to demonstrate how you talk to a client about their their different situations or their aggressive experiences. I, I’m in my mind what, what one thing that comes to mind is an example that I use with a client who had just the day before an experience where they were in a store and they were shopping and they were kind of, you know, just pedaling. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:31:47 I told you, I’ve been talking too much putting around. That’s the word. you know, just kind of putting around to, to be in a different space because they were feeling a bit anxious and some woman thought that they were stealing. And of course, the client is understandably upset. So the therapist can’t come in and say, you know, what were you doing? You know? But you say, tell me, tell me more. Walk me through what was happening. It’s a different way of saying it then. What are you stealing? And find out their perspective. Ask them what they did. You know. How did it all turn out? What did you do? And you know, in this example, I say the client left the store pretty quickly, sat in the car and actually engaged in some deep breathing. So the client had been in therapy. They had resources. So the therapist affirms that this was a difficult situation, that it was awful. They went through it. What did they do? They went to the car. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:32:38 Oh, wow. You were able to engage in some adaptive behavior because the client, very likely, as clients do, lost sight of the positive things that they did. And that’s the other side of all of it, is that we want to be very intentional about affirming the positive things that our clients are doing. the client, you know, if we can call it a distortion, said they stole all of my peace. Well, tell me more about that. You know, we don’t want to say. What did they really? I don’t think they did. No, that’s not going to be helpful. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:33:10 We say sounds like you’re magnifying stone, right? Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:33:14 They stole all of your piece. Tell me more about that. The client who’s been in therapy for a few, you know, a few months. Oh, okay. I see where you’re going with this, but let me tell you how bad it was. And then continuing, you know. And what did you do after this? And in the example I say, you know, the client went to work because for a lot of African Americans, it’s kind of like stuff happens. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:33:36 There’s this, you know, sidelining of just overwhelming anxiety. Sometimes it’s, you know, it’s anxiety. It’s also just, you know, anger, overwhelming anger. In that same example, I talked about, you know, what? All thoughts went through your mind, and the client actually wish they would have said something instead of just leaving the store. So just kind of processing all of these things with the client, pointing out their strengths and then recognizing, oh my goodness. And you went back to work. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:34:07 How did work go? Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:34:09 You know, like were you able to be. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:34:10 Effective at work. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:34:12 Because there is so much about our society that individuals just take on and deal with, because it’s just part of life that the therapist actually has the responsibility of saying, you know what? That’s amazing that you were able to do that. At the same time, I wonder how it impacted you in your capacity to be able to go back to work, to maybe even go home and interact with your children. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:34:38 And maybe that client came in because of communication issues, you know, with family members or friends, but it’s connected to other things that are happening in that person’s life, and they need the therapist to be able to parse that for them so that they can meet their ultimate therapy goals. Joe Sanok 00:34:56 So awesome. Joe Sanok 00:34:58 Well, I feel like we could do hours and hours of this. And that’s why people definitely need to go get your book. No Racial Elephants in the Therapy Room. But the last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:35:13 I would want them to know that they can experiment with how they show up for therapy. So no racial elephants in the therapy room isn’t about being a completely different person. It’s about that person, that therapist being their best possible selves with different kinds of clients who have different experiences that are absolutely out of their control. And I trust 100% that we are all capable of being who our clients need for us to be at the end of the day. Joe Sanok 00:35:46 It’s so good. If people want to connect with you, follow your work, get your book. Where should we send them. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:35:53 I am everywhere as Doctor Rita Walker and Rita is spelled a little different. It’s r h e d as in diamond A, but I’m on YouTube. I also have Doctor Rita Walker. Com and so if anyone goes to my website, they’ll find all of my social media, links for for all of the books, including this newest racial elephants in the therapy room. And also, there’s a free download for anyone who may be interested under my media page. I’ve been collaborating with the calm or the folks that calm and and their app, and so I have a free downloadable resource there, Minding Your Mind. Joe Sanok 00:36:29 So awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the practice of the Practice podcast. Dr. Rheeda Walker 00:36:34 Thank you. It’s been great chatting with you. Joe Sanok 00:36:42 We. Are just the tip of the iceberg so much we could be covering in regards to this topic. we have a bunch of resources within our membership communities, and, I can’t wait to keep collaborating with people like Doctor Rita to just bring this type of training to more people in our communities, in our conferences, all sorts of different places. Joe Sanok 00:37:07 also speaking of conferences, the mental health marketing conference, I am keynote and during the closing keynote, that’s going to be October 1st through third and Franklin, Tennessee, right outside of Nashville. we are partnering with the Mental Health Marketing Conference. And in fact, the whole clinical track where you’re going to learn about tons of private practice things. There’s lots of other consultants speaking is going to be sponsored by practice of the practice. So if you have not got your ticket yet, head on over to MH marketing. Org and use promo code Joe at checkout to get that discount, that they’ve given exclusively for our audience. Again, that’s MH marketing.org. And also we could not do this show without our sponsors. And today’s sponsor is Psychology Tools. It is what I wish I had when I was in practice. There were times when I just wanted to have resources, checklists, things that could be helpful for my clients to do between sessions, and I would look around the internet and just find different things. But Psychology Tools has a resource library that’s going to help you with whatever problems your clients are facing. Joe Sanok 00:38:09 Highly qualified psychologists put together these resources just for you to enhance skills and guide your clients better. Visit Psychology tools.com/joe to find out more. Use code Joe 24 for 20% off new subscriptions. Again that psychology tools. Com slash Joe to find out more. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silences Sexy for that intro music. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.