Joe Sanok 00:00:00 You’re someone with a vision for your practice, for your side hustle, and for your personal journey. But when it comes to establishing your path and how to get to where you want to be with your practice, things get a little messy. You’re also someone who’d prefer to go in person instead of to groups and listening to everyone else’s story. To me, it sounds like you could benefit from one on one consulting with our experienced practice of the practice consultants from 595 a month and up. You can work with a consultant that will give you more direction and practical, tried and tested tips matched to you and your goals. For more information, visit practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. Again, that’s practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. This is the practice of the practice podcast with Joe Santa. Session number 1093. I’m Joe Cenac, your host, and welcome to the practice of the Practice Podcast, where we help you build a thriving private practice you absolutely love. you know, you just heard in our last episode, from Paul Levitin, who was talking about change Made Easy. Joe Sanok 00:01:19 Now, Paul was one of our top 20 podcasts that people have ever listened to. So his episode a while back was that. Now what I’m excited about is that today we also have another person, Nate Page, who his previous episode that we were talking about, all sorts of different things, is again, one of those top 20 podcasts that have been listened to. So I’ll give you the details of that in a second. But first, let me just tell you a little bit about Nate. Nate is a licensed psychologist and certified group psychotherapist specializing in facilitating groups designed for therapists. In a move that he would say, I would applaud and I agree. Nate recently bought the domain of online therapy for therapists. Com to explore how his sepak license, which allows him to practice in 40 states, can help therapists connect with high quality individual and group therapy services. He’s also a father of four kiddos, and Nate is currently navigating the challenges of divorce while continuing to grow as a parent, therapist, and human being. Joe Sanok 00:02:17 Nate, welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast. Nate Page 00:02:20 I’m excited to be back. Thanks for having me, Joe. Joe Sanok 00:02:23 Yeah, well, I should have read your bio before I read it live. so before we started recording, we could talk divorce, but, Wow. Like navigating divorce. so we both, now have that in common. it’s in your bio, so clearly you’re open to talk about it, I’m guessing, but, like, what’s how is the navigation of that going? Nate Page 00:02:45 Well, in some ways we’re at the beginning stages of people knowing about it. We’ve been, you know, privately, considering it for a few years and Joe actually at a clinic camp in Cancun. You were one of the first people that I spoke to because you had been public about it. and that was a helpful mini conversation and maybe a minute or two. but, yeah, it’s it’s everything. Quite the roller coaster. It’s brutal. It’s horrible, but it’s also life giving. And when it’s the right decision, it is the the right decision. Joe Sanok 00:03:20 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don’t think there’s anything that can prepare you for that. you know, especially when kids are involved. And so, man, I mean, you’ve got my cell phone number. So as you go through things, feel free to have me be a connection with that, because there’s so many things that go with it that I just didn’t even think about. And so it’s it’s just like, you know, having Clare, who you met at clinic camp a couple of years ago, you know, we’re still going strong and just even integrating new relationships. And, you know, when do you even consider that depending on your, your divorce and. Oh, man, there’s just so much that could be a whole episode right there. So, Nate Page 00:03:55 Yeah. Good. Well, I really appreciate that. That’s very generous, Joe. Joe Sanok 00:03:59 Oh, yeah. Of course. well, and I think that that also speaks to one of these projects that you’re building, around how lonely sometimes it can be for therapists. Joe Sanok 00:04:09 So, like, even Claire and I, you know, we’ve been talking about, like, what does commitment look like? without getting married again, we both, were in overperforming underperforming relationships where we were both the over performers, where we were compensating for a lot of shortcomings. And, you know, just we tend to both be kind of go getters in a lot of ways and recognizing that, you know, we we love each other. We want commitment, but also the institution of marriage we don’t necessarily want. And so, you know, we found a therapist that’s Gottman certified. And it’s interesting because it’s like it’s not a perfect fit because she’s like, well, we’re not going to just hash through all your fights and everything. And I’m like, well, we aren’t really like fighting. We’re wanting to just better and discuss and Can I say, what is our life look like? And that challenge for therapists. You know, I didn’t want to, in the first session, be like, I’m also Gottman certified. Joe Sanok 00:04:59 And, you know, it’s like, it just feels weird to say to your therapist, you can feel kind of narcissistic, but also I don’t want her to find out during, you know, session 12, like, she’s been going through all this Gottman stuff and it’s like, yeah, yeah, like I get it, you know? So that challenge of therapy for therapists. I want to hear where did that idea come from to go beyond just maybe being known locally as, yeah, I’m a therapist that also like helps therapists, which is say, I’m going to buy this domain. I’m going to offer this across states. Like that seems like a really interesting thing that’s needed. Like what’s the the seed of that idea. Nate Page 00:05:35 Well good question. And I think yeah, it really is born out of just the work that I’ve done with therapists in individual therapy. But then I also for years have run groups for therapists. And I just it’s just thrilling to work with. Therapists and therapists are like any human beings. Nate Page 00:05:55 but the work that’s often a bit more accelerated. People can go deeper, quicker. It’s more fun, I think working with people that, have a model of change and are able to, recognize maybe a bit quicker some of the parallel processes that are happening there, sometimes more interested in having those corrective emotional experiences or getting into the deep things. And, and really, what I have a passion for is just being able to have real talk with people and creating spaces, whether it’s individual therapy or group therapy or podcasts, I suppose. But even a lot of presentations, I really like doing presentations at conferences or other places where and a lot of the times my talks recently, they’ve been called real talk like burnout. It’s really talk about burnout or imposter syndrome. Let’s really talk about imposter syndrome. So I mean, this is and this is not just me that’s doing this, new website, online therapy for therapists. There’s four of us and we meet together weekly. We have for a couple of years is which started as a consult group for group therapist here in Minnesota. Nate Page 00:07:03 And we run conferences together. We’re we’re friends, but we’re we’re colleagues. And funny enough, we’re all now in private practice. I was the first one and then the other three have jumped ship and are now all in private practice as well. but I just I really value being able to have those relationships in those spaces to have real talk with, with therapists and to give therapists the space that they provide to others. it’s it’s it’s just a wonderful thing. And so this, this idea really was born out of, I mean, listening to you, Joe, and doing SEO work and I think it was probably three or so years ago as just searching and and therapy for therapist. Com was available and at the time I remember feeling, ooh, that would be good. That would be a smart move to make. I would love doing that type of thing. I didn’t move on it. And therapy for therapist. Com was taken. I think it goes to a private practice a group practice now in Illinois. Nate Page 00:08:09 but online therapy for therapists.com has been available and I’ve been looking at it for a while and I it finally was just the right timing to move on that. And it’s been thrilling to create the website. I hit publish on it yesterday. I spent about a week or two creating the website with my colleagues. And so it’s live today. And so I’m I’m curious to see where this will go. I have, of course, my group practice and I do ADHD assessments as well. And that’s that’s thriving and moving well enough. So I get to play with ideas like this. And I think it was $35 a year through Bluehost to create the website. And and so I want to see where it goes, how it develops, if it turns, turns into more of a directory for therapists or if it turns into more, you know, therapists wanting training. but right now it’s set up to do individual therapy with therapists that live in one of the 42 states that are CPAC covers the four therapists that are doing this with me. Nate Page 00:09:13 And then hopefully it will help, even fill groups for therapists. Joe Sanok 00:09:20 Yeah. And I think that, I love how you said that you get to play with it. I think that’s so often, you know, there’s so many things we can do in the therapy world, and private practice is one of them. but I think a mistake some people make is they jump into new things, whether it’s a podcast or a website or something like this. and we think right away, I’m going to monetize this thing right away, I’m going to be able to have this, like, take over my private practice. And I always encourage people, especially when we’re doing the pre consulting call, to think through like, what’s the bread and butter that’s already easy. You know, like in therapy you don’t have to explain to people what therapy is. people show up for therapy if you have good marketing, if you have good systems, it’s not that hard to build a thriving practice. but there are times when we say, you know, I don’t I don’t want to keep doing this anymore or I don’t want to keep seeing this many people or whatever the change is, and you can start to have those kind of side projects that you play with. Joe Sanok 00:10:16 But if you have that money coming in, predictably, it makes it a lot easier to play and not put that extra stress of this has to make me money right away onto that new project, because a lot of things can take a long time. I mean, it wasn’t probably until episode 100 of the podcast that we got our first, sponsor dollar. and so that idea of giving it time to breathe and marinate and whatever analogy we use, I love that you use that term play because yeah, it kind of spaghetti at the wall at the beginning. You want to be able to give it that, that allowance to, to become something and to, to grow into something that maybe you didn’t have a vision for initially. Nate Page 00:10:52 Exactly. Well, and I’m in such a privileged position to be able to play. Whereas a few years ago, when I was in college counseling center and wanting to transition into private practice, I needed it to work. And so there’s a lot more stress and pressure. And, and it wasn’t as much play. Nate Page 00:11:12 It was that rolling up my sleeves and the blood, sweat and tears. so it really is a fortunate position to be in. And, and it’s because of resources like you, Joe, and learning how to build a group practice and doing the, group practice boss and the other programs that you have that I’m in a place now where I have a schedule, I have individual clients, they have group clients, they do ADHD assessments. But I get to follow my passion and follow the play. And the thought of, oh, I’d love to have more therapists on my schedule, that would liven me up. I get really excited when I get to do therapy with therapists. or I get really excited to meet with these friends and to build something new. So it’s, it’s a privilege and hopefully a lot of your listeners are at that place. And if they’re not, hopefully soon they’ll be able to get to this place where we’re play becomes the the main motivator day to day. Joe Sanok 00:12:06 Yeah. Well, it was back in episode 679. Joe Sanok 00:12:10 your episode of why you should start a group practice. so that was a couple years ago, a couple of podcasts ago. How have you grown your group practice? How do you think about group practice now, either differently or what’s happened since then? in regards to your own growth with the business? Nate Page 00:12:28 Yeah. Well, I’ve really I guess you could even use the word settled for a while. The thought was, oh, I want to build the group practice will hire more clinicians and, and, but we’re at a pretty good number right now. There’s three of us, and we really like each other. Our staff meetings each week are wonderful. and we’re we’re willing to bring someone else on, but it needs to be the right fit. and and we have I mean, we’re definitely not rich, but we’re we’re pulling in enough money that’s sustaining us. We’re able to, you know, put away towards retirement each month. And, and I think I’m at least not the person that there needs to be someone else that would really build that group practice into something bigger. Nate Page 00:13:18 and it is, it is private pay. If we were to switch to insurance, then I’m sure we could build it quicker. So there’s a number of things like that. but that’s one of the things that, that I’ve really learned with your podcast, Joe. Another thing, because so often there is that pressure. Will I want more, bigger, more money or hire more people. And then and then it will be better. So it was nice to finally get more to the place of no, this is enough. My income. It’s it’s enough. Sure, I’d like more. but what I value more is that freedom and that time, to be able to enjoy life. And so, so I mean, reaching that point of privilege where I don’t need more, even though it is so easy to stay trapped in that keeping up with the Joneses mindset of, well, I, I need more. I’ve been building, building, growing, growing, you know, going to first grade, second grade, third grade and graduating then then what’s the next thing? What’s the the next accomplishment to where I’ll finally get to the the grass is greener on the other side. Nate Page 00:14:19 but it’s really, really, wonderful to be releasing that more and more of. No things are good enough. Joe Sanok 00:14:28 Yeah. It’s interesting. we’ve been noticing that trend. We actually just did. you know, back in August, it was open the State of Private Practice 2024 survey. and from the data we got from that, almost half of the people said that they weren’t looking to grow in the next year. And so as we’ve looked at that data and said, okay, so like people are happy, they feel like they don’t want to grow. So like we’re actually creating a new arm of next level practice specifically for solo practices. And we’re calling it sustainable solo practice. and it’s like a group within the group for people that are happy with where they’re at in their solo practice, they don’t really want to grow, but they do want to have that connection with other people. They do want to say like, how do you think about time and money and have that support as a solo practice owner? But they’re not looking to build a group practice, and I think that is such an important question to ask yourself, because, you know, I could work 5 or 6 days a week, I could work evenings, I could make double the money if I wanted to. Joe Sanok 00:15:25 But what what would I be giving up? What would I be paying for that, you know, I’d be paying for my health. I’d be paying for my relationships. I’d be paying through, you know, I have 85% or so custody of my kids, so I wouldn’t be going to volleyball games. I’d be stressed out and maxed out, and I don’t want that. And so I do think it’s so important. I love that you’re doing this, that to think through, like when is enough enough. And so to know, okay, my family needs X number of dollars per year for us to live the type of lifestyle that we want to live. Okay, if I’m thinking about stretching a little bit and creating passive income, you know, what might you want to do? So like right now I’m, I’m in the process of, you know, right now it’s paperwork’s not signed yet, but probably buying a, multifamily unit home like a three unit complex that, you know, it’s right now bringing in more than what the mortgage will be. Joe Sanok 00:16:11 So, like, nice. There’s things that I want to do that I want to step forward in. But I also don’t want to give up certain boundaries in my life. And so I think that, you know, saying, hey, you know, this group practice the size it is, you know, is where I want it. But I think and I’d love to hear your comments on this, that narrative Of grow bigger. Keep going for me. And maybe this is being raised, you know, Catholic in northern Michigan, that, you know, that idea of like, don’t waste your talents like God or spirit or evolution has given you certain talents, certain, you know, smarts don’t waste those away. And so there’s this never good enough feeling that I think can creep in if we don’t challenge that, because then it’s like, well, I have these talents. I should have a mega group practice to influence my community. I should, and then it just fills in. What do you think fuels for you or has fueled maybe you’ve overcome some of that? That idea of I should be bigger, I should be bigger. Joe Sanok 00:17:06 Then eventually you had to challenge and say, no, I’m happy with where I’m at. Nate Page 00:17:10 It’s a good question. Yeah. And I, I mean, you’re talking about your Catholic upbringing. I think for me, yeah, family of origin stuff, that sense of, oh, if I sit down on the couch to relax, that maybe I’m doing something wrong, I, productivity equals worth. I think that’s just in the air that we breathe so much in our, our culture. so I think that’s that’s a big part of it. I think for me and probably a lot of people, there is that survival instinct to that. Oh, I need to go, go, go doo doo doo. Almost a Black Friday. is that what it’s called right after Thanksgiving? The Black Friday, the scarcity model. I think there’s the fear that, oh, I’m going to have a second rate life if I don’t, keep up with the Joneses. if I don’t, you know, get all the credentials and do everything and make all the money. Nate Page 00:18:05 so I think, yeah, that fear of a second rate life. But then I do think, I mean, I love podcasts, I love, you know, researching things online. but I think there is, of course, that energy if you’re consuming things over and over again. Well, this is how you build. This is how you grow. I think it can. I can easily feel that pressure that, oh, I’m doing something wrong if I take a step back and and so I think it’s countercultural in many ways to say, no, I’m, I’ve, I’ve eaten enough at the buffet table. I don’t need to I yeah, eat more right now. I can wait till I’m hungry again. Joe Sanok 00:18:51 I am so excited about alma. When I had my private practice I struggled building my caseload, attracting the right clients, managing the business side. And honestly, one of the reasons I didn’t take insurance was it was so difficult to navigate. So many of my consulting clients deal with these problems as well, and almost supports clinicians in building rewarding private practices with simplified insurance credentialing in under 45 days, enhanced reimbursement rates, and guaranteed two week payback plus a free profile in their searchable filter directory, making it easy for clients who are the right fit for your practice to find you. Joe Sanok 00:19:31 Learn more about how alma could support your private practice at. Hello, alma. Com forward slash Jo. That’s hello alma.com/jo to learn more. So then you’re shifting into helping therapists. when you do therapy with therapists, whether it’s in a group or whether it’s, individually. How would you say working with therapists is similar to working with any client? And in what ways is it different? I know you touched on that a little bit at the beginning, but are there other distinctions that for you, you would say therapists are different in this way and they’re similar in this way? Nate Page 00:20:12 That’s a really good question. And at least the therapists that reach out to work with me, they are people that are wanting to do deep emotional work. They’re wanting to practice being vulnerable. a lot of it, you know, the perfectionism, imposter syndrome. I’ve heard other people talk about how therapists, they can have better defenses or defenses that are harder to get through, or sometimes therapists can be harder to work with. And that’s probably true. Nate Page 00:20:41 But at least the people that are working, reaching out to work with me are therapists that know they’re wanting to really have the real talk and really, open up emotionally and really practice that vulnerability. So the groups that I run for therapists, they’re delightful. I mean, we have conflict and we have messy things, and it’s not it takes courage to do it. but I think it’s it’s and it is just recognizing the humanity where it is very, very similar to working with any person and whatever the diagnosis is for diagnoses for the the therapist. so it’s I don’t know if I were to put a number on it, probably 80 to 90%, similar to working with a general lay population, if you will. but I just really enjoy the accelerated pace and how quick therapists can get things and, and can really move to those deeper levels of connection. And it’s just thrilling, I think. And I do think they’re part of that. You know, 10 to 20% that’s maybe different than other populations is just the commonalities with burnout. Nate Page 00:21:56 with the vicarious trauma, being able to just be in a group setting or be in an individual therapy setting with a therapist that really gets it. if this is this is what life is like as a therapist in an agency setting or private practice. so so if I were to I mean, probably my best answer is, yeah, there’s some differences, but I really just do it because I like it. It’s it, it’s it brings joy, I think, to really be able to help therapists. Joe Sanok 00:22:28 now I’m wondering, like, I’m thinking about if I was part of a local kind of therapy group, how if knowing that I may see these colleagues at, like a LPC of Northern Michigan meeting or, you know, if there’s a United Way gathering or things like that, that’s true always in any therapy group. but especially if you’re in the same industry, it seems like there’s extra layers there. And I know you’re talking about, you know, with some of what you’re doing going kind of more national. Joe Sanok 00:22:56 So that will be less of a problem. but like, how do you address that? How do you think through that? like what conversations do you have, around just that extra potential for confidentiality, things that might get in the way. Nate Page 00:23:11 Exactly. Well, and and so I do, it’s probably been 7 or 8 years. I’ve run a website called Group Therapy Central. Com, and that’s gotten a lot of traffic. And there’s a lot of colleagues on there that advertise their groups for therapists. And I’ve done a number of presentations at the American Group Psychotherapy Association on exactly what you’re talking about, Joe, the confidentiality and dual relationships. And you’re exactly right. When there’s the local groups, maybe in person groups, there’s I mean, it’s just it’s a given that you’re going to be in the group with other therapists that, you know, and that can create some challenges. I do online groups for therapists, and so there’s a much less chance that you’ll know anyone in the group. I run the groups very similar to how I would run any therapy group or confidentiality is paramount. Nate Page 00:24:04 And then we do explore those dual relationships at the beginning, if there are any exist or if a new group member is coming in and then try to write right away. Deal with any dual relationships that would not, work. And I’ve just found that therapists are actually pretty good at navigating those conversations, because we’ve all done the ethics courses and we understand that. But I have, at least in my experience, it seems like there are a lot of therapists that are more interested in online groups because there’s much less of a chance that they would have those relationships. But then there are a lot of people that are in the group therapy world, like myself, that go to the national conferences and we engage in groups all the time. And so we’re we’re always navigating those dual boundaries. And so some of my colleagues, it’s not fully confidential. They’ll say, everything that you share in group is confidential, but your membership in the group is not confidential. And that kind of helps preemptively prevent some of those dual relationships that you’re able to tell potential therapists that want to join a group. Nate Page 00:25:12 Well, these are the names of the people in this group. Would that not be a fit for you and then be able to share the name of the therapist that might be joining a group with the people in the group to to preemptively navigate some of those things? So and that just comes from the understanding that there’s no stigma. There’s nothing wrong with being part of one of these groups that’s not disclosing too much. whereas that that would ethically not be a good move with a, you know, most populations. So I don’t know if that’s getting it any of what you’re asking, Joe, but it’s a it’s a fascinating world. The groups for therapists world. Joe Sanok 00:25:53 Oh yeah. No. And I think I love that because I was thinking about well if that person thinks it’s confidential and then like that’s great how you preemptively say that specifically so we can decide who’s coming in, who’s not coming in, things like that. yeah. It makes me think like, where does it end? Maybe I should start a group for therapists that are leading therapists. Joe Sanok 00:26:11 And so people like you. No. Just kidding. so, Nate Page 00:26:16 I’m wondering. I’ll join that group. I’m in, I’m in. Joe Sanok 00:26:19 Okay. All right. Maybe that’s a new arm of what we do. so I’m thinking also, like when you think about. So people are listening, they may have these ideas, and maybe they shoot down their own ideas before they even launch something. If people were to think through how to play with ideas that they just want to try without taking on too much financial risk and too much like other risks. what would you suggest for people that have big ideas that they want to test out, that they want to play with? Nate Page 00:26:49 Oh, I love that question. Of course. Depends on what the big idea is. I know for me, like I used to be so much more hung up on the anxiety of it, the potential legal issues, and of course want to have all my ducks in a row First. and of course, depending on the idea, that might be a good idea to have some good CYA practices. Nate Page 00:27:16 but at least for me, like in this website, it was just so easy to throw it out there and throw that spaghetti on the wall. And and my anxiety has gone down so much. part of it is the privilege that I have that if this tanks, then that’s totally fine. but and I remember in our, in our episode that we did, however long ago it was, it’s in the, the, the top episodes. Listen to, that emotional side of starting a private practice is, I think, one of the biggest barriers for people, the anxiety and the fear and and so, so I guess the, the best recommendation I have is just throw it out there, give it a shot. play. Yeah. Go for it. Joe Sanok 00:28:06 Oh, no. I mean, yeah, like, I have a whole chapter, in Thursday’s The new Friday about moving on it and how, you know, top leaders intuitively will move on things before they’re ready. And that’s a skill, I think, that most of us as therapists need to develop because, you know, we go through grad school, we do our dissertation, our thesis or, you know, research. Joe Sanok 00:28:25 We don’t just turn it in when it’s half done. you know, we don’t want a therapist that shows up and doesn’t know what’s going on with a client. And so we tend to be people that overthink things were, you know, over we let we become paralyzed by perfection. That’s what you want in a therapist. That’s what you want in a brain surgeon. That’s what you want in a lawyer. But in the business world, having that minimum viable product, having an idea that we put out there, get feedback on it, realize even in ourselves, oh, for me personally, like, I’m better at and it takes less energy to do an interview than it is to do a solo show for for for the podcast. Learning about yourself. You’re only going to learn that through doing it. And so I think that your advice of like, move on it, run with it, give it a whirl. You’re going to get so much more data from that than any like whiteboard that you’d brainstorm out, like what’s going to work, what’s not going to work. Nate Page 00:29:18 Yes. Nate Page 00:29:19 And and just add a few more thoughts to that. I the more you throw the spaghetti at the wall, the more you try things and fail, the better you’ll get at. And I think I’ve just been learning so much more how to move on things that feel right. And then the the success rate, I think seems to be going up. And this online therapy for therapist. Com that just feels so right. So I have a good sense that something something is going to happen with this. I can’t predict how or where. but the energy that’s there, there’s something very real that’s happening with it. And, and just the line that’s in my head that my mom shared with me, I did a writing group. I helped her pull together a writing retreat for people that were wanting to write their their personal histories for family history. and and she just was talking about killing your babies. Nate Page 00:30:17 with. Nate Page 00:30:18 Writing. And I had never heard that phrase before. Maybe it’s common, but, but just the sentences or paragraphs or ideas that you’ve had that when it comes to the light of day, no, they really shouldn’t survive. Nate Page 00:30:30 You just need to strike that paragraph or cut that out. And it can feel like killing a baby, so to speak. but and and you’re a lot more experienced in the business world, but I imagine that’s the way it is. Actually. Heard Dave Ramsey yesterday on a podcast say that I can’t remember exactly, but something like 80% of his ideas are horrible. but he’s he’s gotten better at just killing them off quicker when they’re not playing out. Well. Nate Page 00:30:59 Yeah. Joe Sanok 00:31:00 Yeah, that whole idea of, like, kill your darling. that’s what I’ve heard in the writing world. Like, kind of nothing sacred. And I do think that even when people talk about their practices and they’re like, it’s my baby. It’s like, no, like, there’s parts of your business, if not your whole business, that you may need to kill like your children. You don’t do that to. And so that idea of like, we are going to do what’s working, what brings us life and move away from the things that doesn’t, you know, like I was a LPC supervisor for years here in Northern Michigan. Joe Sanok 00:31:30 So for people that were limited license in Michigan, I had some of the largest supervision groups and like brought in other supervisors. It was like a movement of doing better in different supervision. And then I realized I hated it, like I we did four hours, 4.5 hours a month all at once. So then people from, you know, around the state could drive in for it. It followed the state standards. It gave them the hours. People loved it. But then I realized doing 4.5 hours of supervision until like 930 at night. That’s what worked for working people. it just didn’t work for my family. And so I was like, I had to to kill that off and then move into other things. But had I not done that, I wouldn’t have the energy to do as many podcasts as I do now. I mean, we do, you know, depending on the week, like 5 to 8 interviews a week, and I feel energized as much at the last interview as I do at the first one in the week. Joe Sanok 00:32:21 But that’s because I’ve, like, cut so much of just the BS out of my schedule to do the thing that really only I can do. I mean, I can have guest hosts, I can have, you know, some of the consultants come in, but ultimately people listen to a podcast, usually for whoever the main host is. And so it’s like, that’s a great use of my time and energy. And then the other things I need to say, okay, what’s second to that? Probably individual consulting and pre consulting calls and then keeping the team going. and then other than that the rest is like if I have the energy I’ll do it. But I’m probably not going to Right. Nate Page 00:32:56 Well. And and just to hear that you often have more energy after your last podcast interview. That’s such a beautiful thing. And I remember in a recent podcast you talked about, I think, your elementary school report cards, Joe, or what the teachers would say is that they couldn’t couldn’t get you to stop talking to your classmates. Nate Page 00:33:14 And and that’s what you’re one of the main things you do professionally. And, and I’ve been thinking about that for myself. Like, oh, what what did my elementary school teacher say? And, but what gives me energy day to day? And it is creative things like this, being able to throw spaghetti at the wall, try out new things, and I just get such a rush. I mean, Joe, you were with me at clinic camp with me learning how to do headshots. Nate Page 00:33:42 That’s such good. Joe Sanok 00:33:43 Claire still uses hers for all her professional ones, I mean. So, yeah. And we had such good couple shots like you were. You were not at the beginning phases. You were so good at those headshots. Nate Page 00:33:55 And that was part of the thrill of the fun of like, wow, this is actually. Pretty dang good, this product that I’m making these headshots. And I mean, part of it, I think, is my ADHD nervous system. And the newness of something just lights me up. Nate Page 00:34:09 but yeah, so whether it’s headshots or the ADHD testing or now this online therapy for therapists. So for me, I mean, that’s what gives me energy is being able to create something new. and yeah, then to be able to be on a podcast like this and, and talk about it is pretty thrilling. Joe Sanok 00:34:27 Well, and I think part of it is finding those things that then like, have some traction. How do we take, you know, 95% of that off of Nate’s plate, but keep that product going. And so, you know, like over time being like, okay, like we got this website going. I’m finding my interests a little bit in here, but I want to just go do podcasts about the website instead of looking at the design behind the scenes. Well, then it’s like we got to find those operational people, those project managers, the chief operations, the, you know, designer, and that they can proceed until apprehended, like just today. This is I had a meeting this morning, and it was with Kate and Jen. Joe Sanok 00:35:02 So Jen’s our, our project manager, so she’s our head of projects and people. And then Kate oversees our membership communities. And so they were looking at the data from that 2024, state of private practice. and they noticed, as did I, but we hadn’t talked about how many solo practice owners there are that didn’t want to level up into something. And they met together and sketched out this whole plan for like our, this community within next level practice. So a community within a community for solo practice owners that don’t want to level up, but they want to be sustainable. And they named it the Sustainable Solo Practice community or something like that. And it’s like, that’s what I want. I said to them, it warms my heart that you noticed something. You took action on it. We’re 95% of the way there without me even knowing this was a project you were working on. And to me, that’s like the difference between a micromanager when you’re like, have a kind of fear mindset with your team, like, oh, I don’t want to spend extra money on these people if they waste their time. Joe Sanok 00:36:01 But it’s like, no, that’s where sometimes the best ideas come from. And we want that to be outside of the owner’s time or the founder’s time. Nate Page 00:36:11 Absolutely. Oh, I love that, Joe. And that this whole new thing developed from people following their bliss, their joy, listening, of course, to your community. but then it was 95% completed before you even knew about it. And that’s a wonderful use of energy. Joe Sanok 00:36:29 So so, Nate, my last question always is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? Nate Page 00:36:37 If I follow my heart, and what I would really want them to know is I want every private practitioner to know that you are valued and loved The work that you’re doing is incredibly important. And, and I at least hope that by listening to my voice and in this podcast that you feel some sense of strength and inspiration to keep doing what you’re doing, but also be able to hopefully find more energy, more bliss in your day to day. Nate Page 00:37:07 And if you’re not having that, that you can make the changes in order to get that. And I’d love to be a help in that process for you if if it seems like I’d be a good fit. Joe Sanok 00:37:18 So awesome. Well, Nate, if people want to connect with you, if, So online therapy for therapists.com is where they can go. What else should they know about that in connecting with you? Nate Page 00:37:28 Well, I’d love for people to check out online therapy for therapists. Com to give us any feedback that you have. I do want to see how this will grow and develop and and and so when we sent out the email last night to all the people that we knew, we just asked, please fill out a contact form and let us know what you liked about the website, what you didn’t like? Any recommendations that you’d have? Because that will really help us know where the energy is at and what people, what therapists that are searching for therapy would actually want in a website. so you can connect with me through there, or just Google me and then find me on my one of my websites and shoot me an email. Joe Sanok 00:38:06 So awesome. Well, Nate, thank you so much for being on the practice of the practice podcast. Nate Page 00:38:10 Thank you Joe. It’s an absolute joy to be with you. Joe Sanok 00:38:21 I love what Nate’s building. You know, that idea of therapists being in therapy? my therapist, that I’ve worked on one on one with for so long. Steve McCleary has been such a gift to me and helping me develop as a person. and so, however that looks for you, if you want to work on becoming a better you or even just being okay with who you are or whatever, like find a therapist. also, you know, if you are trying to build your practice and the credentialing process is a little bit wonky. you should work with alma. they help you get credentialed in under 45 days, they get, enhanced reimbursement rates and a guaranteed two week payback. Plus, they have a new free profile, that you can be a part of. You can learn more about how they can support your practice over at. Joe Sanok 00:39:06 Hello alma.com/joe again. That’s. Hello al McCombs Joe to learn more. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silences Sexy for that intro music. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter cover. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.