[JOE SANOK]
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This is the Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 691.

I’m Joe Sanok, your host. Welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I am so glad that you are here today. Wow, we’ve been doing this since late 2012 and man, incredible. We launched the website in early 2012 and we’re hitting the 10 year mark. Crazy. So if you’re brand new to the show. Welcome we’re here helping people start, grow, scale and exit their private practices. We try to cover things that are in the field of counseling, those practical things that you need to run the business of your private practice, SEO, marketing, all that but also I love interviewing people that are outside of the field. So often we can learn from folks that are doing things that are similar, but a little bit different.

I remember, I forgot which book it was, I was reading about how there was an ER that was having some major problems in the UK, in the handoff between the ER and the rooms. That’s where any infections or things happened. Those teams actually went to train with race car pit crews to learn their strategy of how do they change tires in 12 seconds and fill up the tanks and all that. It’s amazing how when we step outside of our particular field, we can be better within our field. That’s why I’m so excited to have Joe Hudson with me today.

Joe is a sought-after executive coach and creator of The Art of Accomplishment, an online learning platform for personal development. As a venture capitalist, Joe found that the most rewarding aspect and the part that he was most successful at was the mentorship and coaching of the leadership of his portfolio companies. This insight moved him into his present role as a coach, business consultant and teacher, and he now coaches 12 CEOs and leaders in prominent companies and runs transformative programs for both individuals and businesses. He’s practicing a craft that makes big, lasting and overwhelmingly positive impacts on the lives of people in his programs and in the companies he works with. Joe, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I’m really glad that you’re here today.
[JOE HUDSON]
Thanks for having me appreciate it. Great to be here.
[JOE SANOK]
It’s so funny because sometimes people think they need to have millions of followers and I love that you have in there 12 CEOs. Like you can make a living with 12 high, and I mean, that’s just awesome. That’s so awesome. I
[JOE HUDSON]
Actually, I just took it down. I took it down to 10 this year.
[JOE SANOK]
There you go. Look at you. Now let’s back up a little bit. I’m sure you haven’t always just been working with 10 CEOs. Tell us a little bit of your origin story. How’d you get into coaching executive leadership, helping CEOs, what’s that journey look like for you?
[JOE HUDSON]
Yes, there’s two tracks that happened there. The first one was just a total passion for self discovery and my wife famously told me that if we were going to get married, I needed to do a 10-day silent retreat. So that was, I had been studying religion and psychology. I’d had a degree at this point, but hadn’t really felt it the way I did during a silent retreat. So my first meditation was silent retreat and that kicked off something for me that was absolute passion for just understanding myself and just went through every modality I could find. Then we wanted to have a kid, I thought I have to make money. So I became a venture capitalist.

As a venture capitalist. I knew that I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t fulfilling my passion. So I just kept on bringing whatever I’d learnt about self-discovery from neurology, psychology, spirituality, and I applied it to business practices and the business practices just worked and were better. So eventually people started coming to me for coaching, particularly the CEOs that I invested in. I was also a philanthropist at the time. So I was working with executive directors and they started coming to me for coaching. Then more people started to come for me for coaching and then I started doing a course because I didn’t have time. Then eventually I was like, oh, I just want to do this for a living. I’ve been fortunate. It’s more lucrative than venture capital was if you can imagine that. It’s just super rewarding to watch people’s lives change, and to watch as a CEO changes, the whole company change and the lives of the people in the company change. It’s just unbelievably rewarding.
[JOE SANOK]
One of the big insights I’m noticing a lot of our audience having is especially post pandemic, how much basic mental health skills as a psychologist therapist, social worker are just like not known in business and how the things that maybe are intuitive to most therapists, the business world is hungry for. So when you were first realizing that there was a market around coaching these executive leaders, C-suite people, how did you make some of those first sales? How did you figure out your price point, that messiness when you’re first getting going? I’d love to hear a little bit about that before we get to what it looks like now and how you think through all of that.
[JOE HUDSON]
So I was doing it out of love. So when people would come to me, I would say we’ll have a session and you reciprocate, I didn’t need money. So I was just like, you reciprocate the way that feels right. I don’t care if you give me a billion dollars for my kids’ college fund, or if you give $1 to a homeless person. Doesn’t even have to be me. It just has to feel like a good exchange for you. That’s how I started and lo and behold, I got to see what people thought it was worth to them. It was more than I thought it was worth. Then I would say, okay, and then we would play this game, especially with business folks we would play the game where we would play, we called it the happy money game. I would be with the, so we had a session, they reciprocated, then I decided if I wanted to work with them and then we played the happy money game.

The happy money game was you make me a proposal that you think would make me happy. If it doesn’t make me happy and it has to make you happy, then I will give you a proposal that I think will make me happy and you happy. We will keep on going back and forth until we find something. If we don’t, we won’t work together. It’s as simple as that. So some people, like I worked with one person who was a billionaire who bought everything. I was like, for me, money was just a tool to help people. So I charged them, nothing, nothing. I was like, no, the only thing that’s going to work for me is if there’s no fee. Then there was somebody else who was also a billionaire. I was like, he made me a ludicrous amount of money and then every time he didn’t do his homework, he had to pay me more money.
[JOE SANOK]
Did he come up with that or did you come up with that?
[JOE HUDSON]
It was the happy money game. We went back and forth and I would say something like, oh, I noticed that you buy your way out of situations. So we need a situation where there’s enough money that is going to hurt you to buy your way out of this. So it wasn’t about the money. It never was about the money for me. It was always money is just a tool towards awakening, towards freedom. So I just use that as a tool and that sets the standard for the people I work with to see that money isn’t the way it’s usually seen, which is either a resource or a way to know that I’m winning. Those are the two main things that people see money as, but it’s also an amazing tool for development. It’s a tool to create freedom for people. It’s a tool that stymies people. There’s a lot to it. So how do we see the full possibility of money is one of the things that people will discover working with me. That’s the way. Now it’s different. Now it’s like so many people want my time. I’m just like, you have to pay this to get me.
[JOE SANOK]
Now that’s such an interesting way to have the client give the first proposal to you and then for you to come back, it’s such a great way to start things off when you’re first getting going. That’s so helpful. When did it switch over where you really said, okay, this is going to be more of my direction. I’m going to take on 10 or 12 CEOs, you have maybe more set rates or things like that, or at least minimums. How did you know it was time to make that switch?
[JOE HUDSON]
Yes, that switch is a weird one. So what happened was I was still doing venture capital and all these people were coming and I didn’t have enough time. So I just said, hey, we’re going to do courses. These courses were really successful and we started to do some studies with them, et cetera. Then while I was teaching these courses, there was a bit of like a, I don’t know, like a guru vibe that started to happen where I became some sort of power center. For me, everything I do is about empowering other people. I’m always constantly following them, not leading. So at some point I said, oh, I don’t want to do this, however we’re doing this. I don’t want to do this anymore. So I thought, oh, well, what am I going to do? There’s all these people wanting independent coaching.

So I just said, here’s the price point and I want to be able to make a super comfortable living, just coaching 12 people. I created a full support system, something that supported their families, their teams, themselves, gave them a peer group. It was a unique product and that just sold immediately. It was just done. It happened right before the pandemic. So all my live classes were finished right before the pandemic. Then I was just doing this and then pandemic hit and I got a little bored and this person came to me, Tiago Forte, who you might know and runs something called Building a Second Brain. He said, “Hey, why don’t you do an online course?” I thought, oh, an online course is a good way to be able to share what I do and not have this guru thing happen. Man that took off, we sold out the first one, sold out the second one. It’s just been really successful, feel really lucky, really grateful.
[JOE SANOK]
That’s incredible. Well, can you take us through some of like The Art of Accomplishment? I know you also have the connection course. What are some things that you’re covering in there, some insights that we can share with the audience?
[JOE HUDSON]
So The Art of Accomplishment, that course is based on the seven things that I see people trying to accomplish things, the seven misconceptions and how to see them differently. For instance, one of them is connection, not perfection. That’s one of the, or connection over perfection. So there’s seven and that’s one of them. Every week is one thing and it’s seven of those. So that’s the first one. That’s saying that usually in our business, we are trying to get something perfect and it’s not about getting it perfect. It’s always about connecting with the people around you as an example. But the thing is, I don’t just talk about it. What I do is I create exercises, interpersonal exercises between two people or between a group of people and then these exercises let you feel, let you experience, oh, when I am doing connection, this is what it feels like. When I’m doing perfection this is what it feels like.

Oh, I can feel that constriction in my system. I can feel how people disconnect with me. I can feel how I’m not accomplishing things as quickly. So I go through seven of those things and they’re all, there’s very, there’s like a podcast that you listen to, but everything else is exercises where you get to feel and experience it. So that’s what the art of accomplishment. We only do that once a year. It’s an eight week course that we do. It’s been cool. We’ve had, I think it’s 98% completion rate of an online course, which is insane.
[JOE SANOK]
That’s insane for an online course. Oh my gosh.
[JOE HUDSON]
I know. We ask people at the end of it on a one to 10, would you recommend it to your friends? We got the average response was 9.78. It was ridiculous.
[JOE SANOK]
That one person.
[JOE HUDSON]
That one but two people did it.
[JOE SANOK]
That was the one that didn’t complete the course.
[JOE HUDSON]
Two people did it, 8 instead of 10. But it’s just this lovely thing because you’re really teaching it through human interaction and human connection. We’re following our own principles. So we never tried to perfect the course. We are like, how do we do a course where everybody feels deeply connected with themselves and others through the whole thing? That’s what drove our success. It’s definitely not a perfect course.
[JOE SANOK]
Now I know that Harvard and Columbia are doing some research. Tell us about that because I think when you start pulling in big wigs, you don’t hear that with most coaches, online marketers, people doing courses that a Harvard or Columbia cares, so how did that happen? What are they researching? What are they finding?
[JOE HUDSON]
So for some reason or another my courses, there’s a huge amount of people from MIT and Harvard who come to them. I don’t know how that happened, but it just happened. One of them was like, I want to study what you’re doing and so we have this week long in-person that we do twice a year, only for 12 people and same principles of everything else we do. She’s like, let’s do that. They studied it and right now it’s been crazy. We have, so if you know what Ocean is, which is the big five personality types, I think they’re renaming it, but it’s agreeableness, let’s say, starts with, oh, so agreeableness, non-agreeableness, introvert, extrovert, openness, closeness, neurosis, non-neurosis. What’s the other, a conscientiousness. That’s ocean.

These five things are supposed to stick with you for your whole life. Recently they found out psychedelics can actually change openness over the long run. Our course changes neurosis over the long run. We reduced by almost a standard deviation neurosis for people over an extended period of time. We also change negative self-talk by close to a standard deviation. We increase awe and we increase thriving as psychological measurements. So it’s been amazing to watch. I suspected, but I had no idea. So now that research is being taken over by somebody at Columbia and she’s running it for the online course, the AOA course, to see what shifts are happening for people through that.
[JOE SANOK]
Wow. So is your new marketing going to say more effective than psychedelics?
[JOE HUDSON]
We do affect openness a little bit too, but no, definitely not. No, I think different tools for different things.
[JOE SANOK]
Wow. So when you were designing that, so we run Slow Down School once a year, which people fly into Northern Michigan and we slow down for a couple days and then work on their businesses. We’ve really designed it for the outcomes that we believe people need. I think whenever you design an intensive or an experience, I always think through a number of different elements in regards to connections, in regards to well, let me zoom out, I used to do high ropes courses and low ropes initiatives and all that team building type of stuff. So that informs whether I’m doing things online or in person. So when I’m designing something, I’m thinking through connections, uniqueness, entertainment also education, personal internal experiences, outward experiences, pushing people outside of their comfort zone. So those are all things that I think of when I design, whether it’s Killin’In Camp or Slow Down School. How do you think through this intensive that you designed?
[JOE HUDSON]
So the first thought process is that there’s, the way I look at consciousness, there’s three brains that we’re working with so to speak. There’s the human brain, the mammalian brain and the reptilian brain. You could also call prefrontal cortex the emotional world and the nervous system world. There’s lots of ways to describe this. In spirituality, they call it head awakening, heart awakening, gut awakening. So I wanted to make sure that we were working on all three and all three every day. So the head stuff is very much deconstruction of limiting beliefs. The heart stuff is very much about emotional fluidity and allowing a different relationship with all of our emotions. Then the nervous system stuff is about feeling a deep sense of pleasure and safety, especially within a group so that the rest of the transformation can happen.

Also, I really like things that are scary meaning that like, oh, if I’m creating something that is super, that I’m like, oh my gosh, that, oh, wow, can I, that’s a very exciting thing for me. And then figuring out how to do that in a way that’s very safe and conscientious for the folks that are going through that, that’s another big part of my design. I also do a tremendous amount of iteration. So if I have a, there’s probably like 10 minutes of lecture a day of a seven-day course, as an example. So there’s very little talking, but everything, all the exercises we’ve iterated on dozens of times, so that we can really get the nuanced and it can be the change of a single word that can shift stuff. So also iteration is an incredibly important part of everything that we do. Then also there’s always an element of following the room and whatever we do as well. We designed for that. So for me, it’s incredibly important to see that the wisdom is in the people that you’re serving, not in you. It’s an incredibly important part. So everything has to be designed to be able to follow their wisdom and not follow your own as much
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[JOE SANOK]
I want to go back to the, what do you find scary? Do you have any examples of things that you can share? I’m sure some of it within the retreats you keep secret or closed.
[JOE HUDSON]
I only share one thing because I need the example. One of the main things in this week long is that we don’t do very much, but there’s intense things in the AOA, in the master course or the connection course. There’s some stuff not as intense. But I’ll give you the example. So on the first day of this thing, you sit with your partner who you probably haven’t met. You’re looking in a mirror and you tell yourself that you love yourself for 10 minutes. Then you narrate the voice in your head that’s telling you all the reasons you can’t love yourself. Like I have a crooked nose, or I cheated on my wife or whatever the hell it was.

Your partner writes that down in your notebook, and then you translate it onto a piece of paper and that goes on the wall. So everybody can see everybody else’s negative voice. That is the least intense of seven days of exercises. It’s intense, yes, but it works and I’ve never had anybody go bad idea. Like I’ve never, in all the time, we’ve done it we’ve had two people leave and both of them thanked me and they were like, they had to leave for other reasons, but they were both still really impactful. So I haven’t had anybody go, “That was a bad idea. I shouldn’t have done that.” So it’s working, but it was like, whew, you know?
[JOE SANOK]
So when you’re creating exercises what’s your creative process for coming up with that type of exercise?
[JOE HUDSON]
How it started for me is just self-experimentation. I had a rebellious nature, when nature is not right, I was trained to be rebellious as a kid. So I had a very hard time taking on teachers. If I did, they had to be at a distance and I never trusted them completely, which was this huge blessing. So everything that anybody told me, I tested. I designed an experiment and I tested it. To this day, I’m constantly designing new experiments for myself and I’m testing them and seeing what happens. So all of my exercises come out of those experiments that I’ve tested on myself. If I’m thinking about something, like recently, somebody has been, I’ve been thinking about a course on just specifically, how do you identify and let go of limiting beliefs? I will just be constantly testing myself. The first iteration is with myself. The second iteration is with a small group of people. So that’s how I do it. It’s constantly, it’s a constant self-discovery, which is what makes it so fun for me.
[JOE SANOK]
Well, around those limiting beliefs how do you, because I’m thinking, so in myself, I was raised by a school psychologist and a nurse practitioner. They both worked for the school system. I bet they made just under a hundred K each. So maybe 200 K total. So upper middle class, they always taught us that we were poor. Like, we could never afford anything, even though they’re probably better off than most people. I went to Catholic school where there’s a bunch of rich kids that had fancy cars for their 16th birthday and I got to Ford, but I got a car. But so I have this narrative of going into adulthood when I was younger, if I make a hundred K like that’s amazing. Then to grow Practice of the Practice and I often report out my income publicly, but to, —
[JOE HUDSON]
That’s great.
[JOE SANOK]
You know, netting just under a million a year, okay, that’s insane. But if someone said, Joe, in two years, you could make $10 million a year I would say there’s no effing way. That would be a limiting belief I have for myself. So if we were working together or even for you personally, how do you break through or help others break through those types of limiting beliefs, whether it’s financially, emotionally? What would you do to push me to think differently about my ability to level up?
[JOE HUDSON]
I would tell you, first I’d back off and I would say, this is generally the way that I approach it. So the first part is the, I’m sure you’ve seen the research on the theta brainwaves that we’re in as kids. It’s basically where brainwash, this is the way reality is, when we’re zero to eight. So part of what you’re doing is unbrainwashing. So you were like, this is what money looks like. This is what love looks like. This is what marriage looks like. If you’re going to break that, there’s going to be some tension in your system to do it. So that’s one aspect that I would address. It’s more of an emotional nervous system address. The other thing that I would do is that all of our decisions, I don’t know if you know this, neurologically speaking, they’re all emotional.

I mean, we’ve never made a logical decision. If I took away your emotional center, you couldn’t make a decision. It would take you half an hour to decide what color pen to use. It would take you four hours to decide where to have lunch. And you can think about this, like how many decisions have you made not to feel like a failure or to feel like a success or to feel loved or to not feel hated? It’s like all of our decisions are made in that way. Then the second thing is to identify what emotion is not wanting to be felt and going into the process of feeling that emotion so that when you’re making the decision, you’re happy to feel that emotion, whether it’s sadness or failure or fear or whatever it is, because then you’ll make the decision that’ll get you there. That’s the decision making.

Then the third thing is to deconstruct the belief system. So it would be, well, what would make you capable of having $10 million a year? For instance, what makes it possible for so-and-so to do it and not for you to do it? So there would be a huge amount of intellectual deconstruction that would happen. In that intellectual deconstruction of the belief system, I would start looking for the emotional underpinnings of it and the emotional underpinnings would be where I see that you start constricting your muscle so that you don’t have to feel the emotion underneath the question. Then that would lead to the question stuff and then I would use tools like visualization or, there’s a ton of different nervous system tools that I would use to create a sense of safety with this new thought process.

Then occasionally there has to be a social realignment too, which is why with executives, I work with the families and the teams because they have to catch up. So if you believe this, but your wife is constantly telling you that it’s not possible or whatever, then that’s something else that you have to work with. That’s generally how I do it. Intellectual deconstruction, emotional fluidity is the tools. But I have a lot of tools. I have tools like reclamation and all sorts of things that would take way too long to describe, but generally that’s how I would do it.
[JOE SANOK]
That’s amazing. Wow, I feel like I just got a masterclass right then. That’s insane. Oh, the last area I want to make sure we talk about is your own personal habits. For me, my best ideas come when I slow down. That whole, I slow down and then I kill it. I slow down then I kill it. I know every successful person has their own way that they can structure their life. I always love to see people that are way more successful than I am to find out what are your personal habits? What’s your typical week look like, the flow, both personally and business-wise? What are non-negotiable or hard boundaries that you have for your life that you feel like help you continue to be successful or to not care about success or to seek enlightenment or whatever it is that you structure your life around?
[JOE HUDSON]
My bottom line is connections. If I don’t feel connected with myself, I take immediate action. If I don’t feel connected with my family, I take immediate action. If I don’t feel connected with my business team, I take immediate action. So the non-negotiable is connection. I don’t work with people who are, I just, I go for connection because when teams feel connected, when I feel connected, I’m at my best. So how I get there can be different on a day to day basis. There’s definitely meditation that occurs. Moving emotions is really useful for me. I shake, cry, get angry, allow fear to move through my system at least weekly, sometimes three or four times a week, if I have big stuff going on. So emotional fluidity is a huge part that allows me to do it.

Meditation exercise, obviously, you got to do exercise and taking care of the body whether that’s making sure that I’m on a good supplement regiment because I’m getting my blood work done. And all that stuff is becoming easier. Those are all things that are really important to me but the number one thing is connection. If I can come home and I feel like my girls and I can have a deep, meaningful conversation, they’re both teenagers and I love, like that’s daily for me. If that’s not happening on a regular basis, then I address that before I address a client issue, before I address anything, before I address making money.
[JOE SANOK]
That’s awesome.
[JOE HUDSON]
Because that’s where it all stems from.
[JOE SANOK]
Seven and 10 year old girls, so I get it.
[JOE HUDSON]
Oh yes.
[JOE SANOK]
Yay. Girl dance
[JOE HUDSON]
Teenage years are awesome by the way.
[JOE SANOK]
I can’t wait.
[JOE HUDSON]
So cool.
[JOE SANOK]
I feel like I’m excited about it. I have some friends that are a few years ahead of me and to see how they’ve gone into it saying, great, you’re going to differentiate. You’re going to challenge. You’re going to find yourself. I’m excited for that. I think it’s going to be awesome. So I love hearing that.
[JOE HUDSON]
Yes. I realized early on that the trick is if you want freedom, then you have responsibility. You do the responsible thing, you get the freedom. It’s just highly correlated. All you have to do is take responsibility, show up and participate and be honest and kind, and then you can do what you need to do.
[JOE SANOK]
The other day I had made a list of all the things we had to do around the house and kind of like who was going to do what and what I was going to do, what they were going to do. I said to the girls, okay, which chores do you want to do and they said, these aren’t chores. We’re just helping out around the house. It was like they had associate chores with when they were in trouble and doing things around the house. I was just like, oh my gosh, I’ve arrived. This is amazing. These girls are amazing.
[JOE HUDSON]
So my girl, when she was 13, a I’m bragging a little bit, but she was 13 and she had her first breakup and she went to break up with this guy and I had to drive her. She broke up and she came back to the car. She’s crying, she’s holding my hand. We just sit there and were in the sadness together for about three or four minutes. She looks at me and she says, she goes, “Dad, you always told me that heartbreak would allow me to love more, but you never told me it could feel so good.”
[JOE SANOK]
Oh, wow.
[JOE HUDSON]
I was like, kill me, Kill me. I was so proud.
[JOE SANOK]
Oh my God. It’s so funny how kids have those little things. The other night, so my girls wanted to fall asleep in my bed. I said it’s late, so not much talking. My seven year old said, “Can we chit for a while?” I’m like, “What do you mean can we chit?” She goes, “Well, we can’t chitchat, but can we just chi?” And I was like the brain of a seven year old to say, I just want to chit a little bit, so yes, go ahead. Don’t want all that chatting. Just no chatting. I love it. I love it.
[JOE HUDSON]
That’s awesome. Awesome.
[JOE SANOK]
Well, Joe the last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now what would you want them to know
[JOE HUDSON]
Your client has all the wisdom and they know the way. Your job is just to love them unconditionally and follow their lead.
[JOE SANOK]
Oh, my word. So amazing. So concise. Joe, if people want to connect with you, take your courses, follow your work, what’s the best place to send them?
[JOE HUDSON]
Artofaccomplishment.com. Best way to start is the connection course. It’s not expensive. It’s it’s built and it’s done in pairs. It’ll absolutely change your life. So that would be a great place to start. We have a podcast as well, but artofaccomplishment.com is where you can find me.
[JOE SANOK]
Amazing. Thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast.
[JOE HUDSON]
Thank you so much for having me. I feel honored and grateful. Thank you.
[JOE SANOK]
Thank you so much for listening to the Practice of the Practice podcast. With tax season upon us, we’re all thinking about bookkeeping, tax deductions, quarterly payments, all of that. Honestly, that’s stuff that we don’t have to think about. So if you want to have some help with that, go ahead and work with Heard. Heard is one of our newest sponsors and go ahead and join with them. For $149 a month, that’s where plans start. They can easily take care of all of the bookkeeping, getting the taxes, the personalized financial reporting, all of that. Head on over to joinheard.com. Again, that’s joinheard.com. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon.

Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. We really like it. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.