• Visit Jessica’s website and connect on Instagram and LinkedIn.

Joe Sanok 00:00:00  You're someone with a vision for your practice, for your side hustle, and for your personal journey. But when it comes to establishing your path and how to get to where you want to be with your practice, things get a little messy. You're also someone who'd prefer to go in person instead of to groups and listening to everyone else's story. To me, it sounds like you could benefit from one on one consulting with our experienced practice of the practice consultants from 595 a month and up. You can work with a consultant that will give you more direction and practical, tried and tested tips matched to you and your goals. For more information, visit practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. Again, that's practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. This is the practice of the practice podcast with Joe Mock session number 1211. I'm Joe and I'm your host. And welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast. I hope you are doing awesome today. We come to you 3 to 5 days a week, depending on how many episodes we we end up doing.

Joe Sanok 00:01:18  helping you build a thriving private practice you absolutely love. we want you to thrive. We want you to do well. We want you to be successful. But we want you to find the right clients. We want you to have the right training, the right expertise, the right clinical skills. We want to expand so that you learn some new things that you really understand. just how many different, ways you can run a business that you absolutely love? there's so many ways to make money, and we should make sure we're doing the work that we enjoy. That feels good in the world. today I am so excited. We're going to be talking about attachment, trauma, and non-monogamy. this is going to be a really just interesting conversation. We're going to talk about the clinical side. We're going to talk about all sorts of other sides of it. You know, it's interesting. When I went through my divorce, so this would have been, you know, 2021, I'm going through the divorce and separating.

Joe Sanok 00:02:07  I was raised Catholic. I was then converted to be an evangelical. and then kind of undid that, in my 30s. And the message that I had received as a kid was that whole kind of classic 1990s purity message. and so I had waited until I was married, for my first time and, you know, working with my therapist during my divorce, there was so much that was hung up around sex, around just like all these different topics. My mom was a school nurse who taught sex ed, and somehow I got this, this really unhealthy message. And so I went through a good year of deconstructing what I had been told and what you know, and I had done that a lot, you know, I mean, I was in my 40s. You got to address some of that, you know, before then, but like to even think about, you know, non-monogamy. I mean, I read like the Ethical Slut. I read, you know, all sorts of these different books, to just understand the menu that was out there.

Joe Sanok 00:03:02  you know, for the first time really in my life, I didn't have religion, you know, sitting on top of my decisions. I didn't have a marriage. and my therapist was like, you know, in a way, we kind of got to go back to your 20s and sort out, like, who are you? and that's something that a lot of people haven't had the chance to really think through or, don't take the time to think through. So that's why I'm so excited to talk with Jessica Fern today. So Jessica Fern is the author of Poly Secure Attachment Trauma and Non-monogamy. I'm also, Jessica is a therapist, coach, and certified clinical trauma professional. as well as that book, the Poly Secure Workbook. And poly was a deeper dive into navigating open relationships. So in her international private practice, Jessica works with individuals, couples, and people in multiple partner relationships who no longer want to be limited by their reactive patterns, cultural conditioning, insecure attachment styles, and past traumas, helping them to embody new possibilities in life and love.

Joe Sanok 00:04:00  Jessica. Welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast.

Jessica Fern 00:04:04  Thank you Joe. It's nice.

Joe Sanok 00:04:05  Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I don't think I've ever even though that was just, you know, three minutes. I'm trying to think if I've ever publicly said that that was something that I was, like, exploring. I don't think I have. So thanks for pulling that out of me. as we go into this discussion.

Jessica Fern 00:04:19  Yeah, well, I loved your intro on you. I was like, oh, there's a lot we can get into here.

Joe Sanok 00:04:24  Yeah. You know, it's interesting because it's like I had just it was a wide open canvas and, you know, to just be like, okay, the relationship ladder I had been taught was, you know, you date and then you wait, and then you get married, and then you maybe buy a house and maybe have kids. And then it was like very sketched out. And then to see how the dating world, which, you know, in my 20s, I wasn't like a dating aficionado, you know, had changed so much and it was just like, oh my gosh, like there's so many possibilities.

Jessica Fern 00:04:59  Yeah, I mean, I liked using the word menu. Like the menu has expanded.

Joe Sanok 00:05:04  Yes. Well, for me it was I, you know, what was helpful for me as I read through a lot of books, you know, the ethical side of just being super honest with people. And, you know, even before I would meet someone, I would say, listen, like I'm going through or have gone through a really, you know, terrible divorce. My ex chose to leave the kids and move to California. I have near full custody of these kids. so just so you know, like, before we have our first date, I want you to know that I have been through a lot of stuff. I am in therapy. I'm working on stuff. But I want you to know that that's a lot for you to take on and to learn in a first date. So, also, like, I don't plan to get married. I don't plan to have kids again. and I'm not sure.

Joe Sanok 00:05:43  Kind of like what date the dating world is for me at this point. So I tried to, even before we had our first date, have these, like, conversations ahead of time, which then when I would go on a date, it was actually a lot healthier because I didn't have to start with telling this, you know, horrific story that, you know, I had, you know, gone through.

Jessica Fern 00:06:00  Yeah, I think that can be one of the advantages of online dating or apps. Is that, like, there's all this pre-wedding because you get to just say certain things up front. Right. Yeah. And see if there's at least some match in those, in those categories.

Joe Sanok 00:06:15  Well, tell me about your counseling practice. Like, was this the specialty all along? did this develop over time?

Jessica Fern 00:06:22  Yeah. It sort of came to me. I was doing, you know, therapy work. I knew I loved working with couples, and then in working with couples. I've told this story in other places, too.

Jessica Fern 00:06:37  There was this one week where all of, like, couples that I was working with literally brought up that they were curious about opening up their relationship. Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 3 00:06:46  It was in the water, right?

Jessica Fern 00:06:48  Like, okay. And one of them was reading sex at Dawn. So I got that immediately. And I personally knew about non-monogamy, and I was like, I don't know anything therapeutically about this. Right. If anything, what I've, you know, heard therapeutically isn't been helpful. and so I really initially leaned on my narrative therapy training because I was like, well, great. Like any construct we can or discourse, we can just deconstruct monogamy. I know how to do that with everything else. And then in that, I really figured out I needed to bring in much more of an attachment lens, because that's often what was happening and why it was so hard for people who even really wanted to do this was a lot of attachment ruptures were happening, or attachment insecurity that they didn't really realize was there or might not have been there was showing up.

Joe Sanok 00:07:46  Now as you developed. I mean, I remember I had, in my practice, you know, very similar. You know, I'm in northern Michigan, so there's not a ton of people. but, I had a, a three person configuration that was like a V shape with the man being with both women. they called themselves a throuple. I know not everyone uses that as their preferred. but that's what they call themselves. And at first I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm so not skilled for this. But then I thought about my so I'm Gottman level two, thinking about, okay, what skills do I have that apply here. Okay. So there's, you know, several combinations here. There's like him with each of them. There's their relationship to each other and then them, you know, completely as a unit and then them as a unit in society. And like those are all kind of configurations that a traditional cis couple will have. And so I thought, okay, we're talking about active listening.

Joe Sanok 00:08:40  We're talking about reflection, attachment, all these skills that I have. And as I got into it, the things they were fighting about. It could have been any configuration it had, like really nothing to do with them as a throuple. It was more human relationships and connections and discussion.

Jessica Fern 00:08:57  I would say. Yes. And I think that is a portion of it for sure, where you're like, oh, this is like all relationships. And then of course, there are specific things to non-monogamy that, just don't often show up elsewhere.

Joe Sanok 00:09:10  Yeah. Well, tell us some of those things. I mean, you've got your books, your workbooks. give us kind of a and I know that this is probably something you could do, like an eight hour masterclass.

Speaker 3 00:09:19  I know, so, like, I want to write.

Joe Sanok 00:09:22  At the front end, say that by doing a half hour podcast, we are diluting a very complex and nuanced issue and discussion that in the same way, whenever we've done things on race or social justice or psychedelics like you just can't capture it all.

Joe Sanok 00:09:37  So I know that we will fall short and give us the best shot at a kind of masterclass on therapists and working with.

Speaker 3 00:09:44  With couples.

Speaker 4 00:09:45  Yeah. Some of.

Jessica Fern 00:09:46  Yeah, right. Some of the things that were, you know, not going to see as much is, jeez, let me think. The metamorph relationship. So that's the partner of your partner, right? Where you're not together, but it's who your loved one or your lover is dating. And so that can be a very complex relationship. I mean, I see it has parallels to kind of in-law relationships, like our brother and sister or mother and father in law. so there's some specifics there that can get complicated. what comes up a lot is just as jealousy or primal panic that you don't see as much in more of the monogamous relationships. And so primal panic is when your partner is going on a date with someone else and you are activated into like a full nervous system, attachment, panic response, Corresponds. You feel like you're going to die sometimes and it's it's a big meltdown.

Jessica Fern 00:10:47  And people often mistake it for jealousy. Like you're just being jealous. And that's not what's happening at all. It's that you are used to your primary attachment figure as an adult being usually available, and the fact that they're with someone else like represents them being inaccessible and the nervous system is freaking out. Yeah. And since you've been writing about it in Poly Secure, I've come to, you know, evolve how I work with it. And I really have been taking an if's parts approach now with the part of you that's experiencing primal panic and I'm open it to it being different. But every time I do that there is a screaming baby part, an inner infant that you know was left in the crib alone or parents were inaccessible for whatever reason. And that baby is, you know, made the spouse or the primary partner their attachment figure. And when that attachment figure is unavailable, you know, they're having that same kind of reaction.

Joe Sanok 00:11:59  Now when you look at I imagine there's lots of different phases of people that you work with.

Joe Sanok 00:12:05  There's probably couples that are considering opening up. There's ones that have been at it for a bit. There's ones that I mean there's lots of different configurations. When you look at couples that are thinking about opening up, what are the. I hate to use the word healthy or unhealthy because that has a certain judgment to it. but what are the what are some of the reasons that people are starting those conversations? And where would you say that? Maybe and maybe there's a better word than healthy and unhealthy. You choose. but when are those, conversations healthy and when are they unhealthy? and feel free to change how I just said that.

Speaker 4 00:12:39  Change the words, right?

Jessica Fern 00:12:42  Yeah, I think you'll see. Like, maybe well-intentioned or even healthy, we can say that. Or like, from an authentic place, you know, when one or both people really feel like this is what they want. This is who they are. They want to explore this. This is a part of maybe sexual desires or relationship desires that they're looking to experience.

Jessica Fern 00:13:07  And it's coming from that genuine place versus when someone is like trying to outsource needs that they're not getting in the relationship and they actually just don't want to break up or the relationship isn't healthy in a lot of a lot of different ways. And you think that opening up is going to make it better, and it rarely does. Opening up requires more capacity and resources and bandwidth. That does put initially stress on a relationship. Yeah. And there are times two where it is the solution. When you have a couple that might want a, you know, a different interest to explore with someone that their primary partner has no interest in. You go great. Go explore that with somebody else. That's okay. Same thing with different sexual styles or different sexual interests. It's like oh that can happen you know with somebody else. We don't have to do that together and we can accept that and that's great.

Joe Sanok 00:14:07  Yeah. You know one thing that I've observed as I've, I mean, now we've done 1200 plus episodes is as I interview people that are specialists in any particular area, they often will point to the intake process.

Joe Sanok 00:14:22  We're taught in grad school being so normative around white dominant culture, cis culture, and no matter who the specialist is, they almost always have some comment on. Boy, I wish this would be added to intakes as a go to question or a go to discussion during an intake. If you could reshape how intakes are thought through by clinicians, what would you want them to add to it for the average clinician? That is like maybe not even specializing in this, but that you think this really needs to be a part of the discussion in every intake.

Jessica Fern 00:14:59  Yeah, it's a great question. Right. Because usually it'd be like, are you married or single or divorced? And it's like, well, maybe you're all of the above, right?

Speaker 3 00:15:06  Yeah.

Jessica Fern 00:15:08  so in that category, you know, I have extra things, that would have checked the box. And I always have the add your own. I mean, even just having that next to everything in your intake is an improvement, right? Where I don't even I don't even make recommendations on what the gender is.

Jessica Fern 00:15:27  It's like, how do you identify your gender? How what is your sexuality? You know. Tell me about your relationship structure and how many partners you have. So it's more of creating open ended questions on an intake would be nice. Or at least boxes that have, like, check all that apply. Right?

Speaker 3 00:15:47  Right.

Jessica Fern 00:15:48  Yeah. And then fill in your own. Yeah. And I've, I've gotten feedback. people are like, wow. Just this intake is doing something important for me. Like to feel like I can find myself and check off boxes on the intake that actually fit me instead of feeling like I never fit.

Speaker 3 00:16:06  Yeah.

Jessica Fern 00:16:07  Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:16:14  Listen, I didn't take insurance in my counseling practice because I had no idea how to handle it. The process of accepting insurance outside of a group practice can be tough, but most people looking for mental health care want to use their benefits to pay for sessions. If you're like me and you feel a little scared about taking insurance, or you just want to make it easier on yourself and you're interested in seeing clients through insurance.

Joe Sanok 00:16:36  Alma can help. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates. They also handle all the paperwork, from eligibility checks to claim submission and guaranteed payment within two weeks. Plus, when you join Alma, you'll get access to time saving tools for intake, scheduling, treatment plans, progress notes and more in their included platform. It's going to make it so much easier for your team, so you can spend less time on administrative work and more time offering great care to your clients. Visit alma. That's all. To get started. I mean, if we're thinking about, you know, people that maybe haven't had advanced training, I think, you know, in any specialty, there's like kind of a break point where you really should refer out. So whether it's eating disorders or fill in the blank. for you in this specialty. What are the types of things that you're like? Most therapists have the skills to handle handle these, but in this situation you should probably refer out.

Jessica Fern 00:17:45  Yeah. I think, when they don't know how to deal with jealousy. Well, let me think. It's like there's a I still hear it. It breaks my heart where people come to me and they're like, yeah, our therapist just kept telling us just to be monogamous. And so there's even though they said they were maybe non-monogamous friendly. And so there is something about making sure you actually have experience and doing our own work as practitioners that we really do accept this lifestyle and this orientation. I think it's both as a legitimate part of the menu. Right. And that our only tool isn't to say go back to the modern normative way. So it's like if you don't feel like you can really enter that space and navigate increased complexity around jealousy, around attachment ruptures. and really like, I think have a parts lens that can say, okay, you're getting so activated because there's three or 4 or 5 parts we need to explore for you. Right. That's why this is triggering. Then refer out.

Jessica Fern 00:18:57  Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:19:00  Because now for you personally as a therapist and for your life like what has this work done for you.

Jessica Fern 00:19:07  Great question. Well it really helped me see my own non-monogamous ways and claim that at a different level. I didn't have a lot of language before and now I have the language of like oh what my life is right. And being more open and public and comfortable about that as well. So that's part of what it's done. And I love this population of people. Right. They're just yeah. Such a rich population of people. I don't mean monetarily rich, but like, there's usually so much depth and there's so much awareness. And even if there's struggle, there's this desire to be really figuring it out. And there's people that are kind of embracing the multiplicity of themselves. So it's like, it's like people that we get to go to really interesting places with, and I love that.

Speaker 5 00:20:01  Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:20:05  tell me a little bit more about your books. like, what are some of the different kind of parts of it that, that we should dig into? I mean, I know you talk a lot about trauma and attachment and all that, but, like, like, dig into it, you know, get get therapist nerdy with us.

Speaker 4 00:20:20  Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Fern 00:20:20  So Poly Secure is the first book to bridge attachment theory, and non-monogamy. Most attachment theory. Either explicitly or implicitly, is very mono normative. And so I kept having clients be like, we know this is attachment stuff. We know understanding attachment is important. But like, I can't do half of the things this regular book on attachment tells me to do because it's all monogamy. And so I stepped into that gap and was like, okay, there needs to be something that bridges this together. And the book explains attachment. It explains some of the specific challenges that come up in non-monogamy regarding attachment. And then it goes through. It's called the hearts. It's an acronym for here are the things you can do with a partner, not one partner that you're monogamous with, but any partner to build attachment security. And like so here's really the basics of of that that can happen.

Joe Sanok 00:21:26  I want to pause there and have you tell us some of those basics, because sometimes it's been since grad school that, you know, it's not always top of mind.

Joe Sanok 00:21:34  what are some of those basics that you think are really important for people to master?

Jessica Fern 00:21:37  Yeah. So I do it in two phases. You know, I do the regular safe haven and secure base and like, what does that look like in any relationship? And just asking ourselves the questions of, what do I need to feel emotionally safe in this relationship, as well as that secure base, which is sort of more like encouragement and support? but then the hearts is about being H is here about being present. It's hard to attach to people when we're not present. And that's physical, but also really the quality of our presence when we're actually together. Right. Not being distracted. Actually paying attention to each other and tuning in. e is expressed delight. This one is not always covered in the basics of attachment, and it's one of my favorites. Dan Brown talks a lot about this in his attachment work. Of expressed delight is when we like.

Speaker 4 00:22:35  Our.

Jessica Fern 00:22:36  Oozing this sense of joy and the lightness in the person that we love.

Jessica Fern 00:22:42  We don't even have to say it. It's not necessarily expressed through words. It's like it's just we're emanating this what's called the attachment gaze, which is this like, you know, heart, the emoji with the heart eyes for somebody else. Right. And we don't. That's not just romantic, right? We do this in any of our attachment based relationships. that really builds self-esteem in in between partners to have that express delight. Like, you don't have to do things for me. You can just be and exist. And I'm so glad you're alive. That's sort of the essence of it. A is attunement. Are we tuning into each other's needs feelings into each other's minds? I don't have to agree with you, but can I tune into what's going on in your inner world, as well as reveal what's going on in my inner worlds? And that's very important. The sense of tuning in and tracking each other internally and externally. H e r is repair know rituals and routines. Repair comes next.

Jessica Fern 00:23:51  rituals and routines are big and small. So they can be rites of passage you take together or ceremonies you have, or decoupling things that you do. It also is really the everyday routines, whether you're living together or not, how you say good morning and good evening or when you're together, the types of things you do that kind of build this sense of us, whether that's two, 3 or 4 people, there's that sense of us and those routines and rituals really help with the attachment nervous system then turning towards after conflict. So you know the Gottman are are the best at this right. Of of conflict is inevitable. It's just how quick we repair, how quickly we turn back to each other after there's been a rupture. So really learning how to do good conflict repair work is crucial for any attachment based relationship. And then S is secure attachment with self. So we take the heart that we just described and we apply that to ourself. And really creating this inner attachment that's needed to be in a more complex relationship structure and have multiple different relationships happening.

Speaker 5 00:25:07  Wow.

Joe Sanok 00:25:08  That's a good just reminder. You know, even just thinking about anyone's relationship or relationships to to focus on those things.

Jessica Fern 00:25:17  Yeah. So that's poly secure, at a high level. And then poly wise was sort of the rest of the things that I saw because I was on this mission to understand, like, okay, I have all these clients they're opening up or they've already been open and it's hard. Why is it hard? And again, the answer wasn't because it's non-monogamy or to go back to monogamy. And so my answer had 4 or 5 answers. And one of those things was the attachment challenges, which became the first book. And poly wise is the rest of those things. So, switching a paradigm is a big deal. We shouldn't underestimate how significant it is to actually live in a completely different paradigm of love and sex and family. That's not easy for everyone to transition. often what happens is, if it's a couple that's opening up, all of the issues in their relationship will get exposed in the opening up process.

Jessica Fern 00:26:21  So any cracks that were in the foundation of that relationship are now going to have more weight on them, and the relationship might crumble because of that, not because of polyamory, but because there's things we weren't looking at. There's things we weren't addressing, there's things we were kind of brushing under the rug for years, and now we can't. Yeah, some relationships are just not healthy in the first place. They're kind of a sinking ship, and they think non-monogamy is jumping onto a different ship and you're like, no, like we have to question, you know, is this is there enough health here to transition? There's things like codependency that make non-monogamy. I mean, they make any relationship hard, but non-monogamy is particularly much harder if there are partners that have codependent dynamics. And then also in poly wise, it's about the awakening that can happen. This is sort of more the beautiful, you know, expansive, even spiritual side of non-monogamy, that this can be a real awakening and catalyst for people, for their growth, their self-help, also this embracing and allowing themselves and kind of shifting into a different developmental stage, to self authoring who they are in their relationships.

Jessica Fern 00:27:41  It can be like quite a big experience. So those are some of the highlights in poly wise.

Joe Sanok 00:27:49  Now where would you say clinicians that are digging deeper into this work struggle the most?

Speaker 4 00:27:55  Yeah.

Jessica Fern 00:27:56  I think sometimes they struggle with maybe the equanimity that's needed to hang in there with clients when things are hard and they struggle with like holding the view, Like, even having confidence to go, this is workable or. You know what? I don't think this is workable or hey, what's happening here isn't sustainable. Like having that confidence to kind of assess and point those things out. I was just I did a training a few weeks ago where I got to be with Dick Schwartz and watch him do demos, and it was one of the best things I've ever seen as a as a therapist. Right. Just to sit and see him live, do demos and myself and really everyone there kept commenting on like, he's so confident when he's talking to someone about the change that's possible for them. And that feels edgy to a lot of therapists and practitioners.

Jessica Fern 00:28:57  And I think we kind of need a certain level of confidence of when to say, keep going to clients who are struggling in non-monogamy and then also the confidence to go, This is too much. This isn't bending. You're breaking. And something needs to change quickly.

Speaker 5 00:29:15  Yeah.

Speaker 4 00:29:16  Yeah.

Joe Sanok 00:29:16  Well, Jessica, the last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

Jessica Fern 00:29:24  I would want them to know that you can absolutely. Niche. There will still be more people than you can handle. you can have a unique specialty. You think no one will come to you and they will come. that really has been proven to myself over and over again. And I've coached many other practitioners on like, do exactly like really state who you want your clientele to be. And it will happen. And I'd also say if you don't want to work weekends or evenings, you don't have to.

Speaker 5 00:30:01  Yeah.

Speaker 4 00:30:01  So there are people.

Jessica Fern 00:30:03  In other time zones or in your time zone, they will your practice will fill.

Speaker 4 00:30:07  Up, right?

Joe Sanok 00:30:09  So great. Yeah. Jessica, if people want to get your book, if they want to follow your work, where should we send them?

Speaker 4 00:30:14  Yeah, just Jessica Fern.

Jessica Fern 00:30:16  They can find my books there. Me there. And my books are on all the places that you find the books.

Joe Sanok 00:30:23  So awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Speaker 4 00:30:25  Yeah. Thank you.

Joe Sanok 00:30:33  You know, I think that idea of just thinking through, like, what do you want your practice to look like? Is this a specialty that you want to learn more about and get more training, to grow into a different area? You know, I think sometimes people think that a specialty is going to limit people. But, you know, I probably stole this from someone. The idea of a specialty, being a magnet, being both sides of the magnet that you're repelling certain people that you don't want to work with. you know, even recently, had some pre consulting calls with folks that were clearly a bad fit, and their expectations were different than, you know, what we thought we had articulated on the website.

Joe Sanok 00:31:11  And it's like, I want to pass those people on to someone outside of practice, the practice, because the law, they're going to then refer people that are like themselves. And, you know, also, I want to attract the people that, you know, really are ready to go. They they want to run full tilt. They want to do big things. They they want to grow their practice. They want to grow a podcast or write books or be a keynote speaker at a TEDx or something like that. Like, those are the people that we're serving. And so being able to kind of know, you know, who is your specialty, who are you working with? is really helpful to sit with and to even say that that shifts. just today I was working with a one on one consulting client, and, he said to me, you know what if what if in like a few years, I feel burned out from this work? He's doing really heavy, you know, emotional work with people, and he feels like he's at his max right now and building a group practice and all that.

Joe Sanok 00:32:04  And I just said to him, you can change your mind. You can shift. I mean, I used to work with angry kids and loved working with angry teens. It was such a mental challenge to help them, just like trust someone and make better decisions and stop getting on probation over and over. and then I didn't like it as much anymore. I had to transition. I had to hire people that could do that work because we were really known for that. but, you know, I wanted to go home at three, and I wanted to pick up my kids from school, and I wanted to work with people that could come see me during the day. And that's not teenagers, typically. So things shift in your life, and that's okay. having that evaluation and intentionality is so important in the work that we do. Thank you so much to alma for being our sponsor today. You know, I wish alma had been around when I had my private practice. I had no idea what I was doing.

Joe Sanok 00:32:56  That's why I didn't take insurance. But if alma had been there, I would have. And there's no reason that as a clinician, you should be spending hours on paperwork to bill for insurance, or not knowing for sure that you'll get reimbursed for sessions with your clients. If you're interested in seeing clients through insurance but don't want to navigate the process of paperwork on your own, alma can help. They make it easy to get credentialed with major insurance plans at enhanced reimbursement rates and a guaranteed payment within two weeks. Visit alma. That's. Hello, Al Omar to get started. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I'll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band. Silence is sexy for that intro music, and this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information.

Joe Sanok 00:33:56  If you want a professional, you should find one.