PoP 211 | Chris Dayley on The Psychology of Marketing

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The Psychology of Marketing

Today, Joe Sanok speaks with Chris Dayley on the psychology of marketing.

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In This Podcast

Useful Links:

Get Joe’s Ebook for FREE at www.practiceofthepractice.com/grow.

Useful Tools:

Useful Tips:

Make sure you do ‘customer profiling’ before creating your Website. Challenge all assumptions!

90% of the things that influence us to make decisions are subconscious.

Ask yourself, “what do I want users to do on this page?” and “is it easy and obvious that I want them to do that?”

Bare in mind the mobile experience of your website.

Google is starting to care more about how people are engaging with your site than they are about what content you have on your site.

Meet Chris Dayley

Chris is a digital marketing entrepreneur with a passion for helping businesses succeed online. After spending years driving traffic through SEO and PPC efforts, Chris turned his attention to the user experience of websites to see if he could influence traffic to convert better. After running his first successful test, he fell in love and began focusing on helping businesses test their website experience

In 2014 He started his Conversion Optimization agency Dayley Conversion, which was a full service agency helping businesses discover what converts best on their site through testing. In 2016 he merged his company with Disruptive Advertising, where he currently works as VP of site testing and optimization. They offer full- service A/B testing solutions to clients including strategy, design,development and analytics.

Meet Joe Sanok

Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.




Podcast Transcription

Pop 211 | Chris Dayley On The Psychology Of Marketing

[0:00] I’m giving my book totally free this book is the very first e-book that i wrote i updated it.
And it’s all about how to grow practice you can head on over to www.practiceofthepractice.com/grow it usually ten bucks on amazon it’s just my way of saying hey thanks.
One over there and check it out i’d love to hear you think again that’s www.practiceofthepractice.com/grow.

[0:26] Music.

[0:50] Third of the way through two thousand and seventeen as this episode of live once infected january first.
Think about your goals that you set for your practice for this year will what was your ideal practice how full did you want to be.
What was your idea client what were they like and what are you doing right now to address each of those goals.
Also what you think about your ideal life so we set all sorts of crazy goals back in january about health and working out and hanging with friends and lifestyle all these different things.
That i know that a lot of the statistically have stopped doing now at the problem with new year’s resolutions off in the.
Yeah there’s that they are there this moment in time but i believe that every single day we need to ask ourselves what are we doing to move that needle for what we doing to create that i do full practice,
what are we doing to attract those ideal clients and what are we doing to create the ideal life because as you know i don’t work five days a week i don’t work sixty hours anymore,
but that didn’t happen overnight it’s like the first phase before hundred thousand dollars you really have to think about well how is it that i’m gonna get to that hundred thousand.
Please let hustle is loud bootstrapping there’s a lot of just late nights and maybe a working two jobs maybe a regency job with your practice graveside.
Awesome maybe grad school your hustle in awesome.
But those things get you two hundred thousand dollars are not the things that will get you to two hundred three hundred and beyond and nothing it’s all the money we want with their impact on the world wanna make a better world for sure.

[2:29] But if you want to grow your practice.
You really gotta focus in that under hundred k and then when you want to explain,
something back to those goals,
and i would love to chat with you if you guys are having any questions around that if you have no where to practice of the practice that count for slash consulting we can talk for fifteen minutes about.
Where you’re at how you can grow in if one on one consulting the good spot for it if mastermind group is coming to the conference if,
maybe just years apart guess you didn’t know they did or some blog posts,
i want to play the right direction so head on over again to practiceofthepractice.com/consulting because i know where third of the way through this year.
You should continue this momentum especially with summer coming right around the corner,
old tell people’s practices slow down this are freaking out and want that to happen to you most my consulting clients,
are more full in the summer and steve one of my conditions that works for me he had one bad summer we strategizing throughout the winter and last summer was his best months ever that not just summer but months ever.
So it’s just some key things that you can be doing that i can speed up your progress and i would love to help you out with that.
Well today with chris dayley on the show and he’s talking to us,
but the psychology of marketing and some things that he has discovered so that any further do i give you chris dayley.

[3:59] What a day on the practice of the practice podcast we have chris dayley chris is a digital marketing entrepreneur with a passion for helping businesses succeed online,
after spending years driving traffic through as ceo and paper quick after it’s,
chris turned his attention to the user experience of websites to see if he could influence traffic convert better after running his first successful tests he fell in love and begin focusing and helping businesses test their website experience,
chris welcome to the practice of the practice podcast.
Thanks for having me on its my pleasure yeah yeah i’m really say to have you on so why don’t we start with the intro you are doing a lot can a paper clip as ceo and then you shifted the tickets through that transition.

[4:46] Your so there’s actually kind of it was a moment that it really hit me that there was something missing from what i was doing so i can mention i was.
I was focused on driving traffic just focused on you know getting people to our website and i thought that was the thing and everybody you know ten years ago thought that was the thing you just give people to your website then you’ve,
you got it made and so so i went into a meeting with the ceo of the company was at the time.
And i was telling all these awesome numbers you know it got three hundred percent more co traffic coming your site with got all the social media traffic you know we got all these likes on facebook and all these you know great.
And i thought i was just looking like a rock star.
In the end of at the end of our meeting you just kinda sat there for a minute and i just didn’t it’s okay will all that sounds great.
What are the actually for business and a you know i feel shame to say this but i had no idea.
I came in meeting totally unprepared for that question and so.
I would like i know i have no clue so you give me can a child going and digging a little deeper figure out you know did this actually generate new clients for us this generate revenue and what do.
And as i started digging in a i quit very quickly realized that.
That the traffic wasn’t doing much for a business they were converting most of them were staying on site very long at all so i was just looking at.

[6:23] And all my people we got there and i will.
And so is canister ask around the company that trying to wire these people converting what’s going on and is going to be a problem and you know no one cared that there is a problem with their website.
And so and so it is kind of the little investigating and found a tool that you can use to basically make a copy of your website and change something and see if it was if it improves covers right side what the heck you know.
Nothing right now seems to be working anyway so let’s try it so i did i ran my very first test on the website i changed a couple of design elements.
And just wanted to see what would happen to a lonely old man increase in conversion rates on that particular page right there something here so this traffic doesn’t this soc.
You know if we’re getting people to the site and they don’t like the experience they’re getting close will you use for that.

[7:28] So the first one that i used was optimize me and then,
i was not a designer and so i used a tool called unbalanced.
Two to create a variation of my sight and outta is good just landing page creation tool.
And so he its kinda funny the design changes i made like i said i.
One of our designers of the company took a look at this page that i wanted to test and he basically forbid me from running he thought it looked awful.
And said there’s no way this can work and even if it does work when i open this up on the site that’s okay i just wanted to test anyway someone and and so it work better.
And i kinda took that you.
There is there is a lot of tension to say the least so you end up getting more clients for the company and then the designers were like hey great job discovering that chris the.
When different of oh i think they felt like i was gonna stepping on their toes is taking over their creative mojo and the truth of the matter is i kind of was you know they were over here saying.
What’s all this really creative stuff and i was coming in and saying hey you know all the data shows that doesn’t work and and so you know there can be some times some friction between.
You know it’s kinda left brain burst the right brain thinking and so that’s been an interesting balance that i’ve had to learn how to make throughout the last several years since i’ve.

[9:06] You know sometimes really focused on this idea of website hosting i am very cognizant of.
And the feedback and the way that the changes may impacts the creating a designers making stuff.
What’s interesting about that is it was your own boss that was the one that can propel you to start thinking that way and so it is interesting that your own boss got me thinking this way that can put you in opposition of these designers.
Yes exactly and you know.
And friendly and i’ve actually taken as the sole basis minus one several times to thank him for sending me the script out because.
I don’t think if you know if i hadn’t had us sit down and he said so what i don’t think i ever would have.
Thought about this idea that you know that just getting someone to your website isn’t and that you know that the experience itself matters.
You know I’m thinking back in hindsight it seems like total common sense you know it’s like will not everyone that walks into a grocery store by something and also why would I think that is someone that comes on my website is just going to.
Whatever on the new chair.

[10:18] So what are some of the things that people do really poorly the fact that user experience and something about counselors in private practice.
What are things that they may do that kind of makes people don’t pick up that phone to schedule a counseling appointment.

[10:33] Yeah there’s a few things.
And first all take just a quick step back before we talk about the actual website itself i think the first thing that happens usually before somebody starts making a website of building a landing page for their practice.
Is there’s usually a lot of assumptions that.
Place assumptions that it that you know your audience assumptions that you know what works assumptions that your biggest competitor house in the kick website,
order that apple is the end-all be-all website unit copy then there’s a lot of assumptions that take place in this is really the most dangerous time.
Is is when you kind of take some of those assumptions and and just go ahead and start designing something or start working with a designer developer.
And so and so the first thing that i would typically suggest to people like this is you mean you never will know your clients.
You may know the types of people that you work well with and when it comes to website experience.
That doesn’t always help you a whole lot so when we do a lot of customer profile and it got my company.
You know where we’ll sit down say tells about you’re in a typical customer you know who are they you know any kind of demographic information you have on them age gender race any anything that’s helpful for us to understand who they are.

[12:04] And they will usually take those demographic will take those things will stay okay.
So you know where we’re targeting females better and sixteen to twenty and thereby making okay.
And so let’s create a website that we think.
Speaks really well to them so how lots of pictures of you know really attractive young women you know have really nice makeup on whatever.
Engine so we can take a lot of those assumptions and we’ll design a page around it but the more we always do as we always will create.
Some kind of a person that challenges all those assumptions so we’ll say okay so maybe this demographic maybe they don’t wanna see somebody that’s their age.
Maybe they wanna see somebody that’s older maybe they don’t wanna see a picture on dvd wanna see you know just a.
You know maybe they don’t want client that.
So them and hit younger terms maybe they just want you know ever factional street for looking site and so and so one of the first things like i said that i that i really encourage people to do is challenge a lot of.

[13:17] Challenge the assumption that you have about your audience and don’t go in to creating a website assuming you know what’s gonna going to work.

[13:27] He is probably one of the one of the biggest things that i come back to almost every day with clients of mine.
And then once you kind of gotten dark down then we can you know we can kinda start talking about some of the.
And some of them or maybe greetings but i think that’s probably what the first concept that people need to grab a hold,
so really don’t just a whole bunch of assumptions of what you think is gonna work for your market but test it right from the beginning to see.
Yeah if your clients are scheduling appointments.
You know cuz a lot of people go oh well i sat down and where my clients and ask them if they like this and they said yes sure and there’s so many dangers with that kind of thinking is while.
No going back to some of the psychological principles that i you know that i pay for i do on you know when you sit down with somebody and you ask them for their feedback on a website.
You’re asking them to tell you what they think and that the problem is that people only know what their consciously thinking.
What i found and i think harvard did a study on people and found that ninety percent.
Ninety percent of the things that influence us to make decisions online or sub conscious.

[14:56] So ninety percent this of the stuff that is going to determine whether not i contact you i call you i sign up on your form ninety percent of the things i don’t even i’m not even aware of.
And so when you ask people for feedback on a site he asked to take a look at it.
You’re just really skimming the surface you’re just getting the 10% of their and Aunt know what they’re conscious of.
And so.
Because i ask somebody and so and so that’s really where in a running these kind that.
On line it’s a really simple thing to do to correct this crate create new versions of page instead of wine.
And then let them both run and see which one actually performs better but a lot of people just don’t think to do that for some reason and i think a lot of people just are aware that even can do that because i wasn’t aware of that before i.
Price or doing it yeah and how much to do those kinda tools cost to like replicated website and do the a b testing.

[16:02] So the great thing warmer actually free you can see it in others depending on how big your website is if you just building like a single landing page.
No i mentioned in balance as one wall where you can you can set up a free in all landing page for free and you can create as many test variations as you on their name make it very very easy.
There are lots of other tools that you know i’m going to right now but there are lots of other tools rica.
And so then it just really comes down to okay you’ve got the tools you have the ability to do it.
It really just comes down to taking the time to sit down and actually do it i think that’s where most people get hung up and don’t end up going and doing it.
Yeah yeah.
Let me think the,
the people are on accounting website to usually make a counseling appointment,
the maze runner blog post me sir bio the usually there something in them that saying you know what i think i need to start counseling and unique as easy as possible for them.
Absolutely and on top of that.
The one thing you wanna taking into consideration is the mobile version of your website so when people are on a mobile device.
Sure that you got to click the call button like in their face like a button it just has literally click to call or you know call now to schedule an appointment something like that.

[17:39] So i just i actually just barely finished running a test for a law practice.
That that was right along these lines so they have a phone number that was on the mobile version of their site.
But it wasn’t really obvious that you can click it wasn’t a button,
you know and if it wasn’t in your face it was kind of minimize the on site.
We really all we did is we added a button all alarms brightness and what to call.
And we increased call volume for my like three hundred percent.
Just from that simple change.
And so little things like that were you just really sit down and think about the use,
say something about what is what is not gonna wanna do you on this page and what do i wanna do when i think that’s probably.
What is the first essential steps as you’re looking at your page just.
Ask yourself what do i want someone to do.
Is it really easy that obvious what you’re supposed to do.
Cause i think it especially for in a for small practices.
I would say more often than not the sites that i review have way too much content.

[18:55] Too many distractions and do not have a very clear call action and so.
Those are some things that i would probably take a look at it is okay if i want someone to contact me do they need to know everything about extract is because most people want to just immediately.
Vomit all of their practice information on somebody on the homepage on their landing page.
And it’ll be one of those.
You know chances are people want to get.

[19:40] Yeah i do those things where because.
We’re in traverse city and cadillac and sutton’s bay and we do anxiety and,
freshen it’s like they’re just dropping a ton of keywords and.
Take some time to really just ask yourself what would i want a suite with mental illness counseling,
a couple of years ago i said i want to show the outcome of counseling not just sad people are in couples breaking up and i wanted to be like,
happy couples and people with their kids and smiling people.
And i also like i wanna have had this can instagram look to it where,
it feels happen fraction like it counseling for a new generation.
And we did that and it’s amazing how many people like in their first counseling session will see,
your website was on the website out of all of them that we thought we actually want to go there like you were depressed about credit counseling,
and it’s amazing how when you take the time to either do it yourself or where,
the designer and figure out what’s working what’s not working how fast that can help you grow your practice.

[20:49] Well and it’s interesting cuz I think someone that has been in the market for counseling and I’ve worked with my wife and I are both worked with counselors and off for the last 6 years since we got married.
And we’ve been through quite a few of them and so I’ve been through this,
process to find a counselor online and it’s amazing mean when i’m searching for these.
The majority of them are there websites look like they haven’t been touched in ages,
even if they have and it’s funny actually one of the one of my counselors.
Ended up asking me for some feedback once he found out what it is what it is that i.
It is wasn’t acts.
He wasn’t thinking about the overall experience was having of it easy to know what to do on this page.
Do i have a gigantic images on my page that make my pages take forever to load.
Now cuz that’s a huge detraction especially for people on mobile devices when you might not be on Wi-Fi and you know if you’ve got a big image on your site.
I actually have plans last week that one of the page took about thirty seconds to load because they are in on a mobile device,
academic is on there and so.
I mean you know really suggests the people kind of take a step back.

[22:22] And look at you know the overall experience someone house and i usually will recommend the kind of i call it the ten foot rule so if you were to stand ten feet back from your computer screen.
Can you see the thing you’re supposed to do your commands and should stand out so much that it is immediately obvious to someone weather supposed to do on the page the content really plays a supporting role.

[22:51] But if you think about if somebody comes to your site and they won’t what you have.
They probably don’t need a whole lot of convincing.
And what i’ve found is that they need a lot less convincing than you are probably already trying to get them.
And so you know the content plays a supporting role once they figure out what is there supposed to do in a glance over your content,
the email probably just do a quick scan again at like five to ten seconds to scan to your content.
If it passes there smith cast no likely either fill out of a contact for more than likely pick up the phone and call it.
I’m in so yeah so some of those things are what i would,
really take a look and you properly.
In that is that as ceo value of a page this is something that a lot of people are concerned about.
You know about well if I take content off my page and not going to rain Caswell.

[23:47] And you know what somebody who grew up in the third world I totally understand that concern.
And that is no longer the case that’s no longer a valid assumption.
Because I’ve spoken a lot of us do conferences here in the last year too.
About the fact that google is starting to care more.
Thou the on site metrics how people actually engaged your site then made up then they care about your actual content.
And so you may have worst you know you may have la.
You will likely rank better than your competitor even though they might have a lot better you know quote-unquote better content.

[24:35] And so if you think about if you can it again step outside of.
Like the actual content and think about the whole user experience.

[24:45] Give them the important information give them a call to action you know your rank batteries while you know you may have been content.

[24:54] That’s great chris so what are a couple maybe just can the psychology of marketing things that most people maybe don’t think about enough when it comes to their website.

[25:05] Yeah so when it is this idea,
the psychology of color so.
Lot of people when people think of colors,
well there’s a lot of there’s a lot of different things that happen when people are designing their website when they sing about colors.
Usually what will happen if you work with a designer.
A designers gonna make a site that just kind of all the ones in together so designers like to use a lot of complementary colors so though used.
A lot of white and blue and gray,
and you know in your buttons of the blue and your headlines of the blue in your hair will be blue and everything on their will.
And it looks really nice when you look at it visually.
The problem with that is that nothing stands out so going back to this you know this ten foot rule that i mentioned.
Then intently battery can.
Color contrast can make a huge impact on your website.
And so typically what i recommend people is.
Kick your caught what whatever your call-to-action is on your page so if it’s a click to call Button maybe it’s your phone number that says call us or maybe it’s a form on your page.
Make that call to action.
The most contrasting color possible to the rest of your page and said you got a lot of blue and white and grey on your on your site.
Lock all action.

[26:41] You’re probably gonna is little softer colors like blue or in or white or something like that.
And so that’s one thing and the reason that that works so well.
A lot of people are afraid of colors because I like I don’t want to make a red button cuz you know doesn’t read me stuff and I don’t want people to stop.
That’s actually not really the case so you know psychologically when people are on your website people are.
The people are primed to respond a certain way to colors and so when you have a button it right on your site.
People are coming and going all that means I should stop people are gone that means that’s what I should cook on.

[27:22] So it really helps people to associate a certain color on your site with a call to action city got lots of pages on your site but see you offer different types of counseling services and you want to draw attention to you know.
Different types of these we have different pages for each one i suggest you find that really contrast in color and use that as your called action color on all the pages.
Hell yeah.
Jamaican as easy as you possibly can for someone to figure out what they need to do on a page of your,
because the more people have to think and the more they have to figure out what to do.

[28:07] The last like these that they’re gonna remember.

[28:11] Chris such good tips if every counselor in the world were listening right now what would you want to know.

[28:20] I would want them to know that doing this requires a lot less effort than you then.
And it will generate a lot better results than you probably are thinking.

[28:30] I think about these counselor’s that are likely very busy.

[28:36] The day may or may not be super creative i wasn’t super creative when i first started testing and i knew nothing about design.
You don’t need no nigga that you don’t even know if you know you don’t need to know anything about design you don’t need to know anything about marketing online you don’t have to have very technical skills at all.
All you need to do is just jump in and ask some of those questions,
ask them questions like how much content as my audience one.
What color should i call to action the what is michael action you know some of those things if you are some of those questions.
And just create a simple task for yourself like i mentioned we tested one tiny thing re adequate to call button to a page and how to three hundred percent increase in phone calls.

[29:22] You know it’s simple you can do it and.

[29:32] That’s such good advice that you know you think about when we take the handle full practices,
just have a handful more clients every week within a month you’re gonna be full.
It’s i love what you’re talking about so christie’s website is disruptiveadvertising.com if you go to disruptiveadvertising.com/guide he has a free e-book for you guys cuz lettuce a little bit about that you book.
Yeah the book is actually perfect for anybody who’s listening it’s a starter guide that mentions a lot of a lot of the tools that i’ve that i already mentioned on this.
On this podcast as well as a bunch of other free tools that you can get started with.
Talk teacher kind of how to set up your first test and gives you a lot of ideas of,
things that you might consider testing on your site so i highly recommend not,
this is so you like to get started with testing checkout guy.
Awesome and will have links to the show notes as well chris thank you so much for being on the practice of the practice podcast it was my pleasure thanks for me on.

[30:33] Music.

[30:39] Thanks again for listening to the practice of the practice podcast you are the reason that we’ve become the number one podcast for counselors.
And that we just keep growing every single month thanks for sharing this things,
are commenting on itunes and rating is reviewing ask.
Again if you want to do a strategy session with me to chat about where you’re at and what the best next steps are for you heading over to practice in the practice.com 4 / Consulting.
I’ll tell you exactly what i think your best next steps are and if that means working with me great if that means working somebody else great if that means that it’s just a podcast or something like that you can bootstrap it.
That’s awesome to i would love to chat with you have a great week thanks for letting me into yours and into your brain.

[31:19] Music.

[31:24] Special thanks to advance ounces sexy for the intro music and this podcast is designed right after the thirty of information can record,
subject matter covered his give with the understanding that neither to host the gas or the publisher rendering legal accounting or clinical information,
need a professional if you find one that.

[31:40] Music.