• Visit Dan Pronk’s website and see also The Resilience Shield. Connect on Instagram and LinkedIn.

Joe Sanok 00:00:00  How long do you spend writing your progress notes? Every day. If it's over 30 minutes, you should check out describe. Describe is a HIPAA compliant. I note taking software that I and many of my students use daily. It saves me 1 or 2 hours a day on my documentation around consulting, and I know it's going to save you more in counseling. Also, it customizes exactly to my own writing style. I recommend that every therapist give it a trial. It's free. Go to describe how to get started for free. Again, that's describe Mediacom to get started for free. This is the practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Santos. Session number 1210. I'm Joe, your host. And welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast. I am here several days a week helping you build a thriving private practice that you absolutely love. We want you to thrive. We want your practice to just be amazing. And then we also want you to love it. We don't want you to be hating it or feel like it's slimy to get people in.

Joe Sanok 00:01:18  We want it to align perfectly. And you know, if it's not feeling like it's aligning, maybe it's time for some consulting over a practice of the practice for apply. You can always apply for consulting with us. We'll have a conversation to help you figure out the best use of your time and money for what your goals are. And today, I am so excited to have Dan Pronk on the show. Dan studied medicine and is on an Army scholarship and served with Special operations. Following several completions of SAS selection for tours of Afghanistan. Awarded the awards for Distinguished Service for Leadership and Action. Did an MBA following discharge from the Army, and has held medical leadership roles since. He has a deep interest in resilience and has authored multiple bestselling books. He's a car lover and proud father of three boys. Dan, welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast.

Dan Pronk 00:02:10  Thanks for having me, Joe. A privilege to be here.

Joe Sanok 00:02:13  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, man, a lot of service, that you did, with special ops and a lot of work.

Joe Sanok 00:02:21  You're doing public speaking around resilience. And, you know something I didn't say in there? Your your resilience shield model. the research you guys are doing. I mean, just so much around resilience and, you know, changing the world. I want to start with was was the military or was, being involved in, in things that weren't just your typical. Was that something you kind of always knew you wanted to do, like as a child or a teen, or was that something that kind of came later in life?

Dan Pronk 00:02:49  No. Absolutely not. Joe. So that, as a kid, I grew up in an Army family. My dad was an Army helicopter pilot. And I've got one older brother, and he was always on a trajectory towards the military. As a kid, he would get around in army, get up, and he was in cadets at school, went straight into the military. I was headed in a very different direction. I chased the professional triathlon circuit for a while when I got out of school.

Dan Pronk 00:03:18  Never wanted to be in the army. Then in my early 20s, it was clear that I was not going to make it as a professional athlete. I'd done an exercise science degree, which at the time didn't really open many doors, and so I was looking towards trying to study medicine. Found out at that point the Army had a scholarship scheme and so got myself into med school, applied to the Army to fund my med school, and that was how I came to be in uniform.

Joe Sanok 00:03:47  Gotcha. Now, your work with resilience, I guess, you know, obviously when you're touring, there's probably a ton of resilience and things you've got to get through, but also when you're in the midst of it, you may not realize, oh yeah, I'm accessing resilience skills right now. When did you start to think through resilience, being tied into your time with the special ops?

Dan Pronk 00:04:10  That didn't come till after I discharged. And exactly as you said, Joe. And I think for a lot of us, we don't realize consciously the good things we're doing to build and maintain our resilience.

Dan Pronk 00:04:21  They're just habits that we fall into to, to cope. And that was certainly the case when I was in the military and particularly in special operations. We and it was only with hindsight of my time, particularly deployed to places like Afghanistan, these really high intensity experiences, lots of time spent in combat, these really with hindsight, traumatic exposures where I respond to mates of mine who were injured on the battlefield. And and yet we all stayed so resilient during that period. And for me, none of the stress of that caught up with me until after I got out of the military. And so that was the point where I got interested in looking back and thinking, what was it that was making us so resilient in uniform? And what had I lost when I transitioned out? That left me a bit vulnerable to symptoms of post-traumatic stress, and that was for me. I thought if I could work that out, what was making us so resilient in uniform? What did I lost? That was my pathway back to resilience.

Joe Sanok 00:05:26  Now, you know, just in the last episode. I always love with when this happens, you know, we don't we may have like a specific series we're doing and, you know, sometimes we're specifically interviewing around that, but this just is coincidence. Yesterday, we talked with, moral injury, expert and researcher, Shira, again. And she was talking about moral injury and all of this around working with vets in particular. and, you know, we were talking before we even got started about moral injury being something that is tying into resilience. How do you see how do you see moral injury and resilience tying together? And maybe even before we dig into that, we should probably define resilience a little bit more like how are you defining resilience. and then maybe we can go into the moral injury side of things.

Dan Pronk 00:06:17  Yeah for sure. The when it when it comes to a definition of resilience, that's a decent question. There's often the the bouncing back version of resilience. So you've been going along and knocked off your normal level of function.

Dan Pronk 00:06:29  Then resilience is the force that brings you back to that level of function. There's the coping definition of resilience, which is an ability to endure or maintain function despite stress. So slightly different to that bouncing back. But the the definition we like it resilience shield is a better than expected outcome given the adversity faced, and it talks to the fact that there needs to be adversity. It talks to the fact that everyone's different. So better than expected outcome for one person is going to be different for another person. And it just encompasses that bouncing back plus the coping. So better than expected outcome given the adversity faced is the definition that we use of resilience.

Joe Sanok 00:07:16  Okay. And then how would you say that ties into you know like that conversation around moral injury.

Dan Pronk 00:07:24  Moral injury is an interesting one. And I see that as being part of the spectrum of trauma and stress that comes from particularly roles like military and first response roles. But it kind of completes the trifecta in my mind, of the stress always being direct exposure to traumatic incidents in those roles, Vicarious trauma.

Dan Pronk 00:07:47  So just an awareness and indirect exposure to trauma that's very high in those roles and has a similar effect on your stress response. But then moral injury is this, this other piece that's a bit murkier and but is no less traumatic. And I often think of it as, as an act of omission. So something that you didn't do and then there's a bad outcome. Most often you didn't do it because you couldn't your resource constrained, or there was some limitation that stopped you achieving what you wanted to. And then the outcome was poor. Or equally, it can be a feeling of betrayal by your employer organization where you've had an expectation that they will act in a certain fashion and then they haven't done that. And so this, this moral injury is, is, I think, a little bit murkier. And it's less clear cut than the direct traumatization of those roles, but I think no less traumatic. And certainly in my personal experience and dealing with a lot of veterans and first responders, often it will be the moral injury that causes people to leave the role or to suffer from psychological injury more so than the direct traumatization or vicarious.

Joe Sanok 00:09:08  Yeah. Well, tell us more about the research you've been doing. you know, through your surveys, through partnering with university. walk us through kind of that. And I would love to hear what you're discovering in the research.

Dan Pronk 00:09:20  So when I got out of the military and was negotiating that transition into civilian life, which is quite stressful for most veterans or anyone who's been in a high investment role, like first response, professional athletes, musicians, the list goes on. It's a difficult transition, and that was for the first time when I started to have some some symptoms of post-traumatic stress the flashbacks, the bad dreams, the hypervigilance. my anger was on a hair trigger. And so that was that point where I started to become interested in stress and resilience and started to really hit the research on it for me. I thought, okay, how do we codify this? What's happening on a psychological level, physiological level, to be able to just put it, put a name to these symptoms and then move towards a roadmap out of it.

Dan Pronk 00:10:14  And in amongst all of that, did a deep dive into the existing literature on research. What we know the evidence tells us causes resilience. And in doing so, I joined forces with my brother Ben and another guy, Tim Curtis, both ex Australian special operations veterans, and we discovered that no one was really quantifying resilience. There was lots of people saying, do this, you'll become more resilient. But it was all subjective. There was no real hard data. And in our mind, if you if you can't quantify something and baseline it, then do an intervention and requalify. How can you demonstrate any change? So we set about building our model of resilience the resilient shield. We in got a federal government research grant and partnered with a university in Australia. And through that collaboration developed a a valid tool to quantify resilience. And so that sits on our website Resilience Shield. You can do this survey. It takes about 15 minutes and you get these resilience scores. But what that's also done is through the survey we've got about 25,000 data sets at this point.

Dan Pronk 00:11:28  We've been able to optimize our model. And and we've published all of that in a peer reviewed psychological journal. So we've got this tool that can quantify, but the byproduct was optimizing the model.

Joe Sanok 00:11:43  Yeah. Now take us through a little bit of kind of like are there different like kind of sections of the survey that that you guys outline.

Dan Pronk 00:11:51  Yeah. So the the survey maps our model of resilience which is is broken down into layers. So there's the layers of our shield model. You've got the innate layer which is the nature and nurture. It's genetics epigenetics. It's slow moving. But but we know that there's an innate, layer to our resilience. But the for what we call modifiable layers, which are the areas where we can make very deliberate and quick changes to our resilience, the mind layer, the body layer, the social layer and the professional layer. And so the survey takes existing valid tools that look at quantifying the metrics within those layers and puts it all together to to map our model.

Joe Sanok 00:12:42  So what have you discovered from this.

Dan Pronk 00:12:45  A couple of things. The probably the most interesting thing from my perspective is that while all of those layers so that the mind layer is all about your, your mindset and then having some strategies to be able to wind down psychological stress. So your mindfulness and meditation body layer is sleep, diet and exercise. No surprises there. They're the main things that cause resilience in the body layer, with sleep being the most important from a social layer perspective. The the key finding there was that it's not about the amount of people in your social circle. It's about the depth of those relationships and as few as one deep, vulnerable interpersonal relationship really moves the needle on resilience. And then when it comes to the professional layer, the two key things are a sense of of development and moving towards mastery. So virtuosity in your professional role, but more so having a sense of purpose, staying attached to the bigger picture of what you do. But the the key thing for me was the importance of the mind layer. If if you've got to focus in one area to get the best bang for your buck, winding down your chronic stress response and increasing resilience, it's focusing on the mind layer.

Dan Pronk 00:14:07  And I would go as far as to say the best thing you can do is start a short, sharp meditation practice each day, ten minutes a day. That is, in my opinion, hands down, the best thing you can do for resilience.

Joe Sanok 00:14:20  And. And how long have you guys been doing this study?

Dan Pronk 00:14:23  We started that in 2022, so it's been running for about two years. And I think I mentioned before, we've got about 25,000 odd responses to that now. So starting to build a decent data set.

Joe Sanok 00:14:36  Yeah. And as as you build that data, are you seeing are you seeing changes kind of over time of maybe priorities or what people are working on or like where things might be headed?

Dan Pronk 00:14:46  We haven't as yet. And the probably the way that that that survey structured, we the trends will be very slow moving if we can identify them. And because we have such a diverse range of responses from around the world. it's it's in that context, looking at the, the scope there.

Dan Pronk 00:15:09  It's a fairly small data set. So to establish trends, we'd need much more data over a longer period of time.

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Joe Sanok 00:16:20  Trust me. Don't waste any more of your time and try therapy notes. Just use promo code Joe at checkout. So based on what you're seeing with with all the the data. What do you hope happens in regards to how people think about resilience?

Dan Pronk 00:16:38  Well, for a start, I hope that people do start thinking about resilience. As I mentioned earlier, I think a lot of us don't give this any consideration. Don't think about how stressed we are or tools to build resilience until after we suffer a mental health injury, and then we start doing the good things to try and get back to a good state of mental health. But most of our models are very reactive and our model is is designed to be proactive. This is to steal a chunk of a quote from Marcus Aurelius. This is get active in your own rescue. It's about deliberately, proactively, habitually doing resilience building interventions ahead of a stress event. So to come back to your question, this is about getting people thinking deliberately about resilience interventions before they suffer a stress event.

Joe Sanok 00:17:34  Yeah. Now I know you do quite a bit of consulting and speaking and things like that. what are some things that you're seeing that like companies and organizations. How are they addressing resilience.

Dan Pronk 00:17:46  Well I'm seeing a trend towards a real interest in there in Australia. Some of that might have been driven by changes to legislation that's starting to become far more focused on psychological safety in the workplace, and putting more of an onus on the employer to provide a psychologically safe, work environment. So it's been. But but more than that, I think everyone coming through that, the bulk of the Covid time, which was really quite stressful on everyone across the globe, of course, but that that really, I think, shone the lens on this, the requirement for resilience and an interest in it. And so we're seeing that in organizations whose workforces are a bit fried from, from Covid or just from the stress of a modern day workforce. But the other trend we're seeing is, is high performing organizations looking at resilience as a human optimization tool, as opposed to the reactive, responsive workforce is fried.

Dan Pronk 00:18:52  We need to build resilience. It's hey, workforce is going okay, how can we optimize them? And that's what what we, as I mentioned before, what we love about the our model of resilience is that proactive, deliberate, build it, maintain it so that you can thrive.

Joe Sanok 00:19:11  Yeah. Now as we think about maybe personally I always love when there's experts to ask them how are you implementing this research, these teachings in your life personally regarding resilience.

Dan Pronk 00:19:25  Yeah I. I love all this stuff. And a lot of the time I will well do experiments I guess on myself, but. So I've tried all of these things as we've gone through this research, you know, from. I mentioned it earlier, but the, the mindfulness and meditation, which was something I never did when I was in uniform because I didn't see the cultural relevance of meditation to Army Special operations. I just didn't get it. I can see the clear link now that mindfulness and meditation down regulates your body's stress response chronically and acutely.

Dan Pronk 00:20:04  And so it really optimizes warriors and, you know, first responders, military members. That's a fantastic tool to make you better in acute high stress environments. So I'm now an avid meditator. That's something I do daily. The I practice gratitude I've got a gratitude journal, which is another thing that if you had have asked me ten years ago when I was in uniform or more than now, I would have said, no, that's not for me. But but that's certainly the science is there physically. I have got an ice bath and so I'm in that every day. I've got, I've got a sauna I've run. Of course exercise is critically important for, for your mental and physical well-being. I, I enjoy keto so ketogenic diet I do intermittent fasting. So yeah, there's a whole bunch of of strategies that we've discovered along the way. And I've kind of experimented with a bunch of them as I've gone and found the ones that suited me.

Joe Sanok 00:21:04  Yeah. tell me about the cold baths. I've got some friends.

Joe Sanok 00:21:07  That cold plunge here in Northern Michigan year round. I mean, it'll be it'll be icy. The only thing I've. I've done the sauna, cold plunge, sauna, cold plunge that I feel like I can do. The people that I mean, these guys, like, go down and they cold plunge and then they they don't go sit in a hot tub. They don't go sit in a sauna. They just start their day, like psychopaths, you know? I'm just kidding. but but, I mean, like, to me, it always comes across like, these are guys that I like, you know, as individuals, but it also feels like it's this unnecessary, like hyper masculinity, like prove yourself more than the health benefits and and so maybe break that down for me a little bit more. Maybe there's more to it than, than what I'm giving it credit for.

Dan Pronk 00:21:49  Yeah, I certainly agree that it has gained popularity, particularly on social media. I think Wim Hof has had a lot to do with the popularity of cold water immersion and ice baths.

Dan Pronk 00:22:01  And, and there is that aspect of toughness and probably that hard edged, version of resilience. You know, I can hop in an ice bath when it's the middle of winter. And, and I think there's something in that, to be honest. And, certainly I think it was Andrew Huberman talking about if I'm getting this right, the mid anterior cingulate cortex. I might have botched that, but an area of the brain associated with willpower and the functional MRI studies showing that this glows red hot and develops when you force yourself to do something you didn't want to do. And so the underpinning theory is forcing yourself into a freezing cold bath against your will builds willpower. So I think there is an aspect of neuroscience that underpins that, that macho part of ice bathing. But looking at the body of research that shows that the neurotransmitter release in cold water immersion. So the shock of it gives you a shock response, stress response. You're getting your adrenaline, your noradrenaline, but then a big release of dopamine and serotonin and and then for whatever reason, that tends to stay elevated for hours after an ice bath.

Dan Pronk 00:23:17  And so three minutes in the ice bath. You get this dump of these endorphins and your noradrenaline. Great for pain relief for anyone who suffers chronic pain. But then this elevation of your feel good neurotransmitters for hours afterwards. So there's this enduring, psychological benefit in terms of your mood from just a few minutes in the ice bath.

Joe Sanok 00:23:41  If you can handle the three minutes, maybe. Maybe I got to work up to it. I've been doing the, just like, severe cold, kind of in the shower, on on my scalp. yeah, I just I heard that that was supposed to help with, like, hair growth and, like, waking you up a little bit, so I'll do that. But maybe I need to get a little deeper into it. So, you know, the last question that I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know?

Dan Pronk 00:24:06  Good question. There's there's so much there, I think and it's, it's it's clichéd, but that that whole, you know, how are you going to reflect on, on your time on this planet when you're on your deathbed.

Dan Pronk 00:24:18  And the stoic philosophy. Memento mori. Remember, you will die. And I think it's easy to get bogged down and. And invest too much of your time and your identity in your work life, and particularly if you own your own business, then there's that, that incentive to do that. But just trying to keep that perspective. Remember, one day you will die and make sure that when you are looking back on your life, that you've spent your time in the most important things. And for me, that's about making sure that I'm focusing in on my wife, my kids, my wellbeing, and then doing all of that well makes me a better version of of myself when I am at work. So just focusing on that work life balance and and doing the things that bring you joy.

Joe Sanok 00:25:08  So awesome. if people want to get your books, if they want to learn more about you, if they want to watch you on TV, Where can they find you?

Dan Pronk 00:25:16  So I am probably resilient. Shields.

Dan Pronk 00:25:21  Is these the source of the resilient stuff? The survey we spoke about earlier is is nested within that website. You can access that if you're interested. The the books are available on Amazon and other online book retailers. So I've got we've got the Resilient Shield book that takes a deep dive into our model, a bunch of stories and vignettes. I've written a book called The Combat Doctor, which is an autobiographical account of my time getting into the military, into special operations and time deployed with them, and then out the other side. And I've got a couple of other shorter self-published books. I'm quite active on Instagram and on YouTube as Dan Pronk, and I've got a website just at Dan Pronk where I do a bit of blogging, and there's a bit more information there.

Joe Sanok 00:26:14  So awesome. Thank you so much for being on the practice of the Practice podcast.

Dan Pronk 00:26:18  Absolute pleasure Joe. Thanks for having me. And thanks for what you're doing here to make the world a better place.

Joe Sanok 00:26:31  You know, one of the the parts of podcasting I love the most is, is meeting people from so many different walks of life, from so many different countries, so many different perspectives.

Joe Sanok 00:26:41  you know, if podcasting is something that you have as a goal this year that you're working on, I would love to talk with you more about your podcast idea. We've got support plans. We've got ways that we can help you launch your podcast. I do some consulting around it. if that's something that sounds interesting to you over a podcast launch school, you can read more about our different plans we have done for you. We have monthly supports. just reach out via podcast launch school, and we would love to help you get your thoughts out into the world. Also, we couldn't do the show without our amazing sponsors. Therapy notes is the best electronic health records out there. Therapy notes is where you're going to go. Just use promo code Joe at checkout. They'll keep you organized with all of your electronic health records. They include HIPAA compliant video as part of it. They help you with your billing. It's just the best system that's out there. So again that's therapy notes. Com use code Joe at checkout so you can get a discount.

Joe Sanok 00:27:35  But also so they know that supporting this podcast actually works for their bottom line too. It's just a way for them to track that. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I'll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band. Silence is sexy for that intro music, and this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.