[LATOYA SMITH] The Grow A Group Practice Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice Network, a network of podcast seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like the Practice of the Practice podcast, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. You are listening to the Grow A Group Practice Podcast, a podcast focused on helping people start, grow, and scale a group practice. Each week you’ll hear topics that are relevant to group practice owners. I’m LaToya Smith, a practice owner, and I love hearing about people’s stories and real-life experiences. So let’s get started. Welcome back to the Grow A Group Practice Podcast. I’m your host, LaToya Smith. You know that we talk about all things group practice as far as starting, growing, or scaling your practice and anything that could be beneficial to you as a practice owner. But today I’m excited because I have Ms. Allison Puryear on the show today. I had to make sure I got that last name right. But I’m excited because I know that we’ve talked before, I think once on your podcast, maybe even on here before or the other podcast for Practice of the Practice. I just, I think very highly of you, not because you’re awesome in general, but your social media cracks me up. So I look at and I get excited and you just make me laugh. But I also like, what I really enjoy about Allison for, for those listening too, is like, you really seem to like stay in your own lane and like be authentically you in that lane. I think that’s just dope in a world of a lot of what we should do, have to be, how we should move. I think it’s amazing that you have found your area and you stay there and it’s, yeah — [ALLISON PURYEAR] I love it here. [LATOYA] All right, Allison, tell us, I know that was a different start, but I just wanted to say that. I wanted to make sure I said that. But Allison, tell, I know a lot of our audience knows about you, but just introduce yourself for those that don’t know who you are and tell us about what you do. [ALLISON] Yeah, so my name’s Allison Puryear. I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. I’ve been working with folks with eating disorders for, gosh, like 20 years now. I started a practice building business back in 2014 and have been helping people build their practices ever since. That’s my lane that LaToya was talking about. It’s like, I love either the newbies, the people who are still in agencies and are like, this is, I don’t know how to run a business. I don’t know how to do any of this stuff. I love the newbies and I love the people who didn’t really have, they didn’t know what they wanted because we have a lot of learned helplessness in our field and so they just basically built themselves another agency job. So I love helping them reconstruct their practice so that it’s this life giving thing. [LATOYA] I like that, life giving thing. Okay, and so I know that when I reached out to you, and we were laughing about it a second ago and I said, “Hey, I would you mind just being on the podcast again,” and you said like, oh, this is through like messenger, “Yeah, I don’t mind. But you were very clear, “I don’t think group practice is for everybody.” When I read it, I laughed not, well, I guess it was funny by then, I just laughed. Like, you could probably do anything. I’d be like, oh, it’s hilarious. [ALLISON] I need to have you around me more. [LATOYA] I’ll hype you up, “It’s funny, it’s funny, keep going.” But I laugh because again, just that authentic space and your honesty, but then it’s like, hey, I want to hear more about that. So let’s stay in that space where I know for the audience listening, it’s called the Grow A Group Practice Podcast. But I think also it is just that reality. We have to be real, group practice may not be for everybody, especially like what you just said, Allison, if people are running it like an agency job, man, I don’t want to go back to agency work. That’s just me personally. What made, and like I said, you just, it was out with the boldness, like, listen, I’ll do it, but boom, boom, boom. So I imagine you must get this question a lot, but what even made you like respond to that or like that way or where’s that thought process come from, like it’s just not for everybody? [ALLISON] So my business is very successful and it is very successful, partly because a lot of group practice owners are terrible group practice owners. While I love the success, I would really love for fewer therapists to suffer. So I can go on my tirade real quick. Feel free to slow me down. [LATOYA] We are here for it, me and the rest listening. [ALLISON] So it feels like the natural next step when your practice is full and you continue to get referrals to hire on a clinician or two. Like that just feels like, well, I’ve got to put these somewhere and that’s what you see around you. Like we’ve, none of us have been in communities without group practices most likely and so it just seems like the logical next step once you’ve won solo private practice. I would say the same thing happens in group practice ownership as happens within agencies, is that essentially you just promoted yourself just like somebody gets promoted in agencies because you’re great clinically, because that supervisor was great clinically, but without leadership training and without real understanding of what your job now entails because I mean, I know you talk about this all day, it’s very different to own a group practice than to run a solo practice. [LATOYA] Absolutely. [ALLISON] So I end up working with so many therapists who are coming out of these group practices where they just, somebody just kept hiring. And I truly believe people have good intentions, but the profit margins within group practice can be very small at certain numbers. So there’s a desperation that can happen within a group practice owner and that’s because they want to keep their business alive. It doesn’t come from being a jerk, I really believe it comes from wanting to stay afloat, but they often will throw their employees under the bus to get there, or contractors more likely if they’re getting thrown under a bus. So it gets really messy because they not only didn’t have a real plan for a group practice that is based in wanting to better serve their community and to also be of service of the therapist working for them. They’ve built it because it seemed like the next logical step. Like there’s no real underpinnings there. There’s no roots there. [LATOYA] Well, that makes sense too, because for many it is the next logical step. Like I can think about how I started, I was like, let me tell if I tell my story, I’m just burnout. I’m seeing people early in the morning, I’m seeing people late at night, the phone keeps ringing. It’s just me. Okay, I need somebody. I never thought, first of all, I never thought I’d be a practice owner, but my agency job, that’s a different story, if there’s ever a podcast episode on that. And the next thing I know I own this practice, okay, well, next thing I know, okay, well, let me hire somebody. So I see that part out of desperation or it just makes sense, but you’re saying hold up, back up. It could be the next step, but it doesn’t have to be the next step for you. [ALLISON] Right [LATOYA] But then how, my question is, well then for those that are like, because the other part of owning a group practice is, hey, you can make more and you could see less clients and then you could expect, so that’s a lot of the talk we do. So how can somebody, if it’s money, the thing like how can we sustain and grow our practice and make more, but just ourselves? [ALLISON] Well, it doesn’t have to be clinical. Like it can be. I just had somebody on my podcast who was talking about scaling clinically, like beyond just like group therapy, but some other interesting ways of scaling. I’ll shout out her, she’s at the Leverage Practice. Really interesting ideas that I’ve like never thought of before. So there are ways that you can scale clinically if what you’re excellent at is clinical work. If the idea of managing other therapists who are peers and I mean, I’m not, I love therapists, they’re my people. They’re why I have this business. But like therapists have some big feelings that they want to voice and when you’re their boss, it’s sometimes not what you want to deal with on a Tuesday. Like it just, it’s a lot, it’s a lot to manage any human being’s financial wellbeing and if you’re responsible for somebody’s livelihood there are going to be certain expectations on you. I don’t want any group practice owners, whether they’re there with clear intention or whether they just fell into it to be contributing to this huge problem we have in the mental health field of toxic work environments. [LATOYA] No, that’s deep and it’s real. Because we hear it all the time, okay, grad school don’t teach how to be business owners. Then the other part is when it comes to leadership, like, you’re right, like I don’t think that, I never wanted to be a boss again, but here we are and I am. That wasn’t, I’m more visionary all day long, but not the steps. So it was a lot I had to learn after falling down and getting back up. So I hear what you’re saying, but then it’s like, man, that next step is so like, that just wakes makes way more sense then, okay, well let me figure out, let me really sit in what I’m good at because to me that’s the long way around. The quick way, hire somebody, do, just mimic what you did, get them some clients and now you got more money. But the harder part seems like, let me sit in this space and figure out what I’m doing. So what do you tell a therapist who’s in that space where you’re like, you can already see like, yo, this ain’t, nah, maybe you should be the one that goes to hire somebody. Now what are you saying to that person? [ALLISON] So I say, what is it that you’re wanting with a group practice? Is it more money and less work? Because we can talk about ways to do that. Is it, because I think that’s a big, I mean the, when you’re starting a group practice, it is not less work. It’s not. But if you want more money and less work, there are other avenues to that. So we might explore whether that’s on the clinical side, whether that’s consulting, whether that’s groups, I mean there’s so many different ways clinically. If, and I get this a lot, they’re just business board. They have worked so hard to get where they are and after working 45 hours in an agency plus on call and then working hard to start their solo practice, they get to this point where they’re like, okay, well I’m successful, what’s next, so often what I’m telling people is like, enjoy it. You have more money than you’ve ever had. You have more time than you’ve ever had. Like get a hobby. You don’t have to monetize it. You can if you want, but I think therapists also need to learn how to chill out and do things for ourselves that are fun. [LATOYA] Yeah, and that’s hard. Well, it’s hard cross the board, especially when you’re owning stuff because you’re like, so much goes back into the business of the group. But then like when you think about, and maybe this is, I know somebody out there listening to can vibe with me on this one, but when you think about achieving, having achieved so much and then to just chill, it’s like it takes work to be able to chill. [ALLISON] Yes, a hundred percent. [LATOYA] Like the harder part is sitting and figuring it out. The easier part is to keep going and pressing smart. [ALLISON] Yeah, it feels like crawling out of your skin. It gets so uncomfortable. [LATOYA] Yeah. But I wonder, no, now we’re talking about it. I’m like, ooh, it’s a couple. But then it’s like, okay, well I don’t know this about jumping into group practice until I tried it and it doesn’t work but okay, let me sit in my space. Okay, let me figure out. So now Allison, you’re working with somebody now and like, okay, well let me figure out what works for me. Is it like, what am I good at, is it like, not the next shiny object because if that’s the case, I’m going right down the other road where I don’t need to be. I’m not about space. Is it about, well, people say I’m a good speaker, so I’ll just go present. I always run to write a book, let me write a book. Is it about webinars and e-courses? Do I start something from private practice owners who only want to be solo? Like so what’s the, how does that work or what’s next. [ALLISON] We really just talked through like what is it that they’re wanting? What is it that like they would miss if they didn’t get to do it? I mean, we live in this age where there’s so many options and I mean, like you tell, if you tell my parents some of the jobs that my kids will have when they’re grown up, they’d be like, what in the world is that? So it’s, we have so many different avenues that we can go and so part of it is just looking at you’re hungry to do more because you want to contribute in some way. And how you contribute is really important. It’s not just that you contribute, it’s how, because it’s got to be sustainable or you’ll resent the whole thing you set up because you loved it. So it’s us thinking through what is your, like what is your why for wanting to create something else? And I look at the why not necessarily as the guide towards how to achieve it, but how to buoy you in the moments when you want to give up because like we’re all going to want to give up and starting any sort of new venture at some point. So we just go through and see like what sticks and what doesn’t, what excites them? If they have really interesting things that they love doing, like say they love things that don’t seem like they’d work together or go together, we just play with it. Like, well what if it did go together? What would be like a possibly ridiculous business venture with knitting and therapy or something like that? Like just throw stuff together and see and be creative with it and be playful with it without committing to a single thing in the conversation. [pillarsofpractice.com] Ready to take your practice to the next level? In our pillows of practice e-courses, you will find free resources designed to help you take your practice to the next level. In there you’ll find over 20 free downloadable resources and tools, eight-minute expert videos on a variety of topics to help you make your private practice stronger, and three hours of video trained to make growing a practice quicker. Head on over to www.pillarsofpractice.com. [LATOYA SMITH] I love that already. I don’t know how to knit, but it just sounds creative. It sounds fun. I learn how to knit, but that just sounds fun. But even that, when, okay, what’s your why? What’s the reason why? So yeah, if you’re just chasing money, it’s a long race and you’re always be chasing money. You can have a pin, now you want two. There’s never a right cap, but if it’s the why and the passion and the motivation, now we’re moving different. Like I said, when I started mine, just honestly, hey, I was exhausted. Somebody help me. But okay, then I had the nuts and bolts, okay, well I’m still going to be exhausted if somebody else is here, if I don’t, if I’m not running it correctly. But that’s different than I could speak about myself now. I love this community where I love getting out there to where people wouldn’t normally come in. I love partnership, creating, grow, like that will never go away because that was in 20 some years ago. So how, like that part of finding the uncomfortable, and I think that goes back to what I was saying about you, like, one of the things I love about you is like you’re in your lane and you’re not veering out that thing like, from what I noticed, I’m just observing you on social media, you ain’t bearing out of that just because everybody else is chasing this shiny up or it looks they look successful because what the following you have, you very well could veer off and I believe people will run off with you but go ahead. [ALLISON] Well, and I’ve had lots of business coaches be like, explain to me why you’re working with the poorest of the people within your group. Like, you like therapists, why are you working with the people who make the least money? I was like, I mean, I love them. I’m not changing my mind about it. Yeah, I could help full group practice owners start other businesses. I could do that. I have the skillset for it, but I love that life change that I went through, that you went through of like working in an agency that was just so willing to grind you into the ground as a part of their machine to like actually having energy when you come home from work. And really liking every single client you see because you knew you could do good work with them instead of feeling clueless because your 11 o’clock has something you’ve never done therapy with before. Like that’s the transformation I love. And I think like chasing money, like I could chase money and do something else but I would rather chase what feels real to me, like what feels most deep seated inside me because I have endless energy for it. I’ve been doing this almost 10 years and people are like, don’t you get sick at talking about niche? I’m like, no, it’s so fun. It’s different every time. [LATOYA] But don’t you like, it sounds like then your story, your reason why your story came from your own stuff. Like, listen, I was ready to get out of that. I didn’t want to exhaust myself with all this again so let’s just, let’s learn how to thrive in this space, which goes back to when you find your lane and niche, for those listening and maybe it’s not group practice owner, but there’s a reason why there and there’s something that excites you and gives you energy. You don’t have to go out and do what the next person is doing. That’s something I always say, even when it comes to group practice or whatever. Okay in the building I’m at, there’s a hallway full of therapists, but listen, when I talk about it, there’s nobody like us for several reasons, but so whatever reason makes you stand out, blow that up. Like I don’t care how small, that’s you and you have an audience for what you do. So that’s what you’re telling the people too, like listen, find your space and say, so if it is knitting in therapy, okay, you may not know anybody that wants to do it now, but when you keep talking about knitting in therapy, they’re going to come. [ALLISON] Yes, you’ll figure it out. [LATOYA] So would people, so your motto of, hey, just stay in your space, that works for cash pay and insurance? [ALLISON] Mmh. [LATOYA] Okay, so people don’t get like frustrated, they’re still like, hey, this is me and I’m comfortable. [ALLISON] Yeah. [LATOYA] Okay. I feel like you need a therapist to do this part. I feel like every therapist needs a therapist so they can be comfortable in this space. And turn your social media off because everything you say is going to be people saying, I’m full, I’m full, I’m full and shiny objects. [ALLISON] Yeah. It’s hard, it’s hard. [LATOYA] I’m saying this as I’m doing this and I’m just like, but I get it. But I think that’s the beauty of it because everybody doesn’t have to do what the next person does. [ALLISON] Because it’s the same with building your solo practice. Like if don’t you follow what your best agency friend did when they went out on their own, like let’s say they loved blogging and that really brought in a lot of clients for them, but you hate writing and you suck at it, like you’re not going to have the same results because every blog post you write is going to be a slog and it’s going to feel like a slog to read. So nobody’s going to be like, I want to go to the woman who clearly hates talking about the things she’s talking about. [LATOYA] What, about the people you do work with, you can tell, okay, you do have some business flow. [ALLISON] Oh yeah, oh yeah, I definitely have a lot of people who end up in that space and they want to start a group practice and I don’t help them with them. I let them know like I’m not the one for that. But I vet them first before I refer them onto y’all or whomever is like, why are you wanting a group practice? Because like a big underlying theme of all my work is you can have what you want and the scary part about that is it means we have to ask ourselves what do I want? [LATOYA] That’s good. You know what I say too, like often tell people, okay, if you’re looking to hire, you should hire when you’re three, at least three quarters of the way full. That way you could fill up boom. But when do you think a therapist who isn’t, who doesn’t want a group practice or is learning that’s not my lane, when do they start asking those questions? Like, okay, well, what do I really want? What’s my why? What’s important to me to keep going? Do you ask that when you’re three quarter like man, I’m about to drown. Let me start asking these questions. Like when do you start even sitting and asking yourself those questions? [ALLISON] I have them start before they even start marketing their solo practice. And of course, it shifts and changes because your life changes pretty dramatically when you go from working for someone else to like a full solo practice. So what you want and all those pieces do shift and when they start talking about being business board or I’m getting all those referrals, usually it’s in somebody’s first solo practice, they’re not sure the success is going to stay. I don’t know if you went through that phase of like you got full for the first time and you were like, but what if the phone stops ringing? [LATOYA] Oh yeah. [ALLISON] So it takes a little while for them to trust that the phone’s going to keep ringing. So my people, since they’re so green, like they’re so brand new to it. They’re usually in this space of like three quarters full. They’re still not trusting the phone’s going to ring. So it’s not until they’ve proven to themselves that like, okay, like week after week I’m still getting about the same number of referrals I can probably breathe now, that they start thinking about what’s next. [LATOYA] And then you mentioned before, you mentioned a couple times, like I think in our messages too, you’re more, you lean towards W2 and not contractor. Why do you think, why do you say that too? I just want to make sure I ask that question before we get off. [ALLISON] I think just looking over with how the IRS defines them. I think that there are so many group practices where people are made contractors because the group practice owner again, didn’t come at it with intention. They just looked around and saw that like other group practices in their area are making them contractors and so they do the same thing. When I look at the IRS, like designations of what’s a W2 and what’s a contractor, and I think, I mean I have a group practice and I have, I look at like my, I have my sole employee who fell in my lap who I had to create intention around group practice because she was perfect and I wanted to help her out slash work with her. I had to be really clear about like, everything on this list and this list. Like if I’m creating the environment I want to create, it is an employee relationship and I am paying those taxes that, of course I don’t want to pay more taxes, but like it’s the right thing to do in this circumstance, so that’s what I’m going to do. [LATOYA] And it sounds like everything you’re saying, Allison, it’s not only, I know we’re just talking about people who are like at that point where they got a process, hey, do I want a group practice? What’s best for me? I’m chasing shiny objects, not chasing the money, but really what’s going on? What’s best for me? When I’m listening to you talk, this is good for a group practice owner now, who’s thinking about scaling. Should I hire more people? Should I stay where I’m, what I have, like okay, I got to go bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. Or is it like, listen, I do have five therapists with me, let’s just stay in this space and let’s see how we can all build and explore and grow. Like instead of thinking numbers, numbers, whether people or money or locations, it’s more so like, how can we be dope and multiplied from here forward. So the questions that you say and your reasoning, I’m thinking, no, this is good for everybody. I know you’re like, well, I ain’t going to work with a group. Like, I got you, but — [ALLISON] Yeah, I want to have support so they’ll do it right. [LATOYA] I like it. I’m already in deep now. I’m already in this group practic thing now. But I like these questions, I like these questions in the sense it makes me think, okay, even when it comes to hiring again, like, listen, what else can we do? How can we scale in different ways? How can we get out there and be still be great but be comfortable in our lane? [ALLISON] It’s like you already have amazing resources just right there. Is there another way to scale it? [LATOYA] I like that. Well, tell our audience, for those that don’t know about the abundance party. [ALLISON] So for the, your listeners specifically, it would be a good fit only for those who are still looking for therapy clients, like maybe you don’t have solid referrals yet. That’s because, that’s my sweet spot, is helping people get clients in the door. Most of your people are probably, have probably already figured that out if they’re looking at group practice or maybe they’re in the early stages, but they know that they plan to head that way. So if you need help getting clients in the door, then the Abundance Party is a membership site. It has access to tons of courses, an honestly really sweet community, which I know doesn’t exist on Facebook with therapists very much. But these people are like the sweetest people on the internet. We do monthly trainings on anything from like how to fill a group therapy thing you’re doing to how to have great sex as a therapist. We have these heavy jobs. How to slough that off for the afternoon or evening. So we have all sorts of trainings and we have an actual good time while building a practice. So yeah, make it easy and fun, that’s my goal. [LATOYA] I like it. Then how can people find you on social media? Because that Instagram page is hilarious. Like where do you get these wigs from? Where do you get these? [ALLISON] This entire green thing right here is full of wigs. [LATOYA] They’re hilarious. [ALLISON] I’m like tax write off. So Instagram is at Abundance_Practice_Building, which is a lot of letters. But yeah, I have a really good time with reels. Like I’ll stop doing them when they stop being fun but it’s been a long time of doing them every day that I just enjoy it. [LATOYA] Hilarious. I think that also just adds to just the genuine part of you like this funny again, be yourself. It is what it is. Your audience will come when just be yourself and flow. [ALLISON] Yeah, a hundred percent. [LATOYA] Oh man, that’s dope. I appreciate you. This is the — [ALLISON] Absolutely. Thanks for letting, giving me a platform to talk about this, two group practice owners, potential group practice owners. [LATOYA] No problem. So be out here selling their practices at no time and it’s come work and find their lane. But yeah, so again, if you could just tell the audience how to find you if they have questions, if they, maybe somebody’s listening who doesn’t have a practice yet, but just want to listen. How can people connect with you to begin growing? [ALLISON] Hit us up at abundancepracticebuilding.com. We’ve got lots of free stuff on there as well. Yeah, we try to keep it all feeling extremely doable [LATOYA] All right, Allison. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you. [ALLISON] Thank you. [LATOYA] Any lasting words you want to add or? [ALLISON] Take a minute to really think about what you want because you can’t have it. It’s really just a few simple steps ultimately for any of us to have what we want. So be really clear because you’re going to get something anyway. [LATOYA] Yeah, that’s good. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you. Talk again in the future. [ALLISON] You too. Sounds good. [LATOYA] If you love this podcast, please be sure to rate and review. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.