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What can world-class level sports learn from therapy, and vice versa? Why should you pursue your “messy edge”? What are the five significant mindsets that we all need to thrive in pursuit of our goals?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks with Dr. Michael Gervais, who has worked with Olympic athletes, Super Bowl champions, Fortune 50 Leaders, and famous artists.
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Meet Dr. Michael Gervais
Dr. Michael Gervais is a high-performance psychologist who works at the intersection of sport, business, and human potential. He has coached Olympic athletes, Super Bowl champions, world-class artists, and leaders from Fortune 50 companies on how to perform with clarity under pressure.
Michael is the host of the Finding Mastery podcast, where he explores what the world’s best performers know about mindset, purpose, and mastery. He is also the author of The First Rule of Mastery: Stop Worrying About What People Think of You, a practical guide to overcoming FOPO—the fear of other people’s opinions—and building a life aligned with your deepest values.
His work focuses on developing trainable mental skills that help people thrive in high-stress, high-stakes environments while staying grounded, curious, and connected.
Visit Finding Mastery, listen to Michael’s podcast, and connect on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
In This Podcast
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Overcoming the fears of other people’s opinions
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Pursuing the “messy edge”
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The five mindsets of success
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Dr. Michael Gervais’ advice to private practitioners
Overcoming the fears of other people’s opinions
For most people, especially athletes, professionals, and high-functioning achievers, there can momentarily exist the fear of worrying about what other people think.
[The fear of what other people think] is an obsessive checking, it’s this rumination. This is not a clinical symptomology here, but it is a cluster of constantly checking and thinking, “Are they thinking about me?” (Dr. Michael Gervais)
Another way of phrasing this fear is being on high alert at all times and overly vigilant of other people’s opinions about oneself.
Dr. Gervais experienced the fear of other people’s opinions (FOPO) himself, and once he learned to see it, he began spotting it in various world-class athletes that he was helping to coach and train as well.
[High-achievers] wouldn’t call it FOPO … What they would say is: “I’m not afraid of getting hurt. I’m not afraid of losing a contract. What I’m afraid of is looking stupid, and I’m afraid of letting people down. I’m afraid of being embarrassed.” That’s all of people’s opinions as the main lever for their thinking patterns and the behaviors that ensue. (Dr. Michael Gervais)
The first step to breaking this fear is to recenter oneself so that you do the tasks before you FOR you, and not for the validation of anyone else.
Pursuing the “messy edge”
The fundamental commitment: I wish I had a different way of just expressing how all-consuming their life becomes towards the thing that they see … On all their practice days, the level of emotional and social risk that they take every day is phenomenal. Why would they take this much risk? Because they made a fundamental commitment to seeing how good they can become at the thing they love doing. (Dr. Michael Gervais)
There are two groups that Dr. Gervais discusses when it comes to high achievers: the half percenters and the five percenters.
The half percenters are crystal clear on the goal that they want to achieve, and it compels them so much that it is as if there is no other option apart from running full tilt towards their dream.
Somewhat differently, the five percenters have a little more trepidation and insecurities.
However, what unites them overall is their commitment to their goal and their strides towards reaching their “messy edge.”
You have to be at that “messy edge” where you’re not truly in control of how well you’re doing because you’re on that edge. So, in front of your peers and in front of your coaches, you have to get to that edge. That risk-taking is the unlock of getting better, [but] most of us, in our lives, we don’t have that messy edge. (Dr. Michael Gervais)
Many of us exist in well-controlled, comfortable rooms. You have to ask yourself:
- Where am I vulnerable in my life?
- Am I moving in the direction of the “messy edge” at the periphery of my limit, in pursuit of my greatness?
The five mindsets of success
Dr. Gervais wants you to know that the most important thing about these five mindsets is that they are trainable. So, while you may not have them right now, you can develop them with your intentional effort and daily choices.
1 – Purpose: When you enter into an environment, are you connected with your purpose?
2 – Curious: When you enter into an environment, are you able to be curious about how things work and how you relate to them?
3 – Optimistic: Can you bring a mindset where you are finding what is good?
4 – Relational: How well do you maintain humility and compassion with yourself and those around you?
5 – Agile: Being able to maintain mental flexibility and nuance in layered situations.
Those five mindsets … are so foundational to living well and thriving in this high-speed, high-stress world that we’re in, that folks who have volitional control to work with these mindsets [can be] in a pretty good place. (Dr. Michael Gervais)
Dr. Michael Gervais’ advice to private practitioners
Keep working on you! Create an inner environment that serves you at your highest level well, and then pressure-test it in new situations that bring you to your messy edge, pushing you beyond your limits over onto new horizons.
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Resources mentioned in this episode:
Visit Finding Mastery, listen to Michael’s podcast, and connect on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
Check out these additional resources:
- The Essential Guide for Counseling Black Women with Dr. LaNail R. Plummer | POP 1334
- Practice of the Practice Network
- Group Practice Launch
- Group Practice Boss: www.practiceofthepractice.com/grouppracticeboss $149 a month
- PoP Group Practice Owners Facebook Group
- Free resources to help you start, grow, and scale
- Work with us
- Practice of the Practice Network
Meet Joe Sanok
Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners who are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.
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