Joe Sanok 00:00:00 You’re someone with a vision for your practice, for your side hustle, and for your personal journey. But when it comes to establishing your path and how to get to where you want to be with your practice, things get a little messy. You’re also someone who’d prefer to go in person instead of to groups and listening to everyone else’s story. To me, it sounds like you could benefit from one on one consulting with our experienced practice of the practice consultants from 595 a month and up. You can work with a consultant that will give you more direction and practical, tried and tested tips matched to you and your goals. For more information, visit practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. Again, that’s practice of the practice. Com forward slash apply. This is the practice of the practice podcast with Joe Santa. Session number 1014. I’m Joe Santos, your host, and welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast. I hope you are enjoying your July 4th. If you have firework plans and you’re in the US, enjoy that. Joe Sanok 00:01:16 Be safe. and, summer is upon us. So, really excited about, the show we have in store for you today. But if you’ve missed any of our Movers and Shakers series, we have been covering so many interesting things since back in episode 1007. we talked about, going to the white House and growth cycles. We talked in the next episode about, humans and finding balance. we then dug into how therapists can break into group coaching, and how cancer changed, Allie’s life at age 13. we’ve talked about staying inspired in private practice. we’ve talked about overvaluation of happiness and managing imposter syndrome with two researchers. we talked about breathwork in the last session so this really great series this summer. Also, if you missed our series back in May and early June, we did our Psychedelic Assisted Therapy series. If you’re interested in that, your clients are going to be asking these questions. So whether or not you plan to go through maps, training or any of those other things, please take the time to listen to some of those episodes. Joe Sanok 00:02:18 Just fascinating to hear how different people are thinking through it. You know, we talked a lot about the politics of it. We talked about training and access and especially in underserved communities, what that looks like, we talked about people that are doing it in the underground with ayahuasca and other people that are going full tilt forward with MDMA, which looks like it’s going to be have classification changes, most likely in August based on our, research and people we talked about. So some really interesting things going on. Then also before that, if you missed this series, we talked with a couple of the Harvard Business Review authors that I was featured with, with the book that came out in May through Harvard Business Review. You’re going to want to check that out, too. We talked about AI and, you know, side hustles, full time jobs all sorts of really great things. We have some killer episodes coming up in the future. Ash, one of our consultants. She’s going to be doing a three part series on Mega group practices. Joe Sanok 00:03:08 And then Melissa, one of our newer consultants who has a 50 plus person practice, is going to be doing a series as well. And then throughout August, we’re going to be covering tons of things from Level up week. So a full summer, four episodes a week. We just couldn’t do this without you and without our amazing team. So I am so excited today. I just have to tell you, oftentimes, you know, on this show, it’s really weird still for me when as a podcaster, people are like, oh my gosh, I’ve listened to your podcast forever. I can’t believe I’m meeting Joe Cenac. That just always is still weird for me. and I appreciate it because I have those people. You know, when I first met Pat Flynn from the Smart Passive Income podcast, I listened to his show for years, and then he was on my show, and then I was on his show. And then this morning I looked on my calendar and Elise Lunin is on my calendar now. Joe Sanok 00:04:00 Elise was part of the Goop Lab Netflix show. That’s where I first heard about Elise. She’s done so much more beyond that that I’ll tell you about in a second. But I was like, I don’t even know how this interview happened where, you know, whether it was her PR or our team or whatever, but somehow Elise is here on my show. Elise is a New York Times bestselling author and a host of the podcast Pulling the Thread, where she interviews cultural luminaries. She’s also the author of The New York Times best selling On Our Best Behavior The Seven Deadly Sins, and The Price Women Pay to Be Good. Elise lives in L.A. with her husband Rob, and their sons Max and Sam. This is also co-written 12 books, including five New York Times best sellers. Previously, she was the chief content officer of goop. While there, she also co-hosted the goop podcast and the Goop Lab on Netflix. At least I’m going to leave it there. Welcome to the practice of the Practice podcast. Elise Loehnen 00:04:52 Thank you for having me. What an intro and I can’t wait to listen to all of those series. Joe Sanok 00:04:57 Yeah, it’s been so fascinating to just dig in with people. And I mean, it’s just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, with with psychedelics and plant medicine, there’s just so much ground to cover. Like I could do a whole podcast on that. But alas, here we are. So, at least I want to start with Goop Lab. so you are a part of that show? it it came out a lot of it came out during the pandemic. I remember during the pandemic, watching a bunch of those episodes. For you personally. what are some experiences you had with Goop Lab that really either changed you, challenged you, made you think differently, things that were on the show or were behind the scenes that never even made it to TV. Elise Loehnen 00:05:39 Yeah, I mean, it was so fascinating to work on that show and help produce that show because I made content. I was a magazine editor out of college. Elise Loehnen 00:05:48 I’ve done every format in some ways, and so to be able to actually work with an incredible team to make TV was a new experience and a totally different way of storytelling. And we as goop staffers were in many of those episodes. And so I ended up in, in a few of them, one with this energy, this man who works with energy named John Amaral. I did some, some parts with Wim Hof and that episode on cold Exposure and therapy. But really, I’d say the biggest experience for me to the beginning of our conversation was psychedelics. And as you mentioned, this came out at the beginning of 2020. A lot of people watched it during the pandemic and in the intervening years. Psychedelics have come so far. But what we wanted to do, and I feel like we did do with that show, was push it even more into the mainstream. And as we were casting and going through staffers to to figure out who should go to Jamaica to do mushrooms with these maps, trained Therapists. Elise Loehnen 00:06:57 I threw my hat in the ring. I hadn’t done psychedelics somehow, and I felt like it was important for a mom, a mom from LA to be in the mix and to in that way to help, you know, normalize it as not something that only young, sort of, Burning Man types are engaging in. Yeah. I don’t represent my cohort, Joe. Joe Sanok 00:07:21 I love it. You know, what’s funny is, so in 2019, I had my first guided experience, and I had also never done psychedelics in any of the kind of ways that college students and whatnot do it. but yeah, went to my first guided experience, like full on eye mask and all of that. because I had turned 40 and I was like, I’ve read Michael Pollan’s book and thought, okay, I want to try this. And he has sent me on such a unique, different trajectory after that. yeah. For you. So you have this experience with Goop Lab doing it? did other things kind of. Joe Sanok 00:07:56 Then open up. Or did you continue that work, or were there other things that you did afterwards or how did the integration go? Elise Loehnen 00:08:03 Yeah. So we did mushrooms together, and as the mom, I would say it was it was the hardest for me to let go into that experience because one of my coworkers, Kevin, was next to me and he was having a really intense experience. And so my instinct was to take care of him, which I went with. It is what it is. But then as part of the show, but not filmed, because we had to be very careful because it was Netflix to obey all, all laws, which is why we were in Jamaica. but on my own, I did ketamine for that experience, which is legal. so I did ketamine in order to be able to talk, talk more fully about psychedelics, since that is legitimately very psychedelic. And then I also did, the three part MDMA series with the therapist, and that wasn’t filmed. But that was became a formative experience for me because I and I, I write about this in on our best behavior in the chapter on lust because I knew, you know, I could I could identify in my history some, a early or a high school sexual assault that I knew I had done some work on. Elise Loehnen 00:09:24 But, I didn’t really understand my body’s reaction to that event in high school. And when I did MDMA, I did it truly, out of curiosity, just as a journalist, and ended up, having the revelation that I had been molested by a friend of a family friend when I was very young and I was back in that basement. And as for anyone who’s listening, who has experienced MDMA in the setting, you know, mutes your amygdala. It wasn’t a retraumatizing experience for me. It was a massive. And it, it just it contextualized so much of my life, in a way that was deeply clarifying for me, incredibly healing. And then I also, as part of that MDMA experience, had this insight at the beginning where I was like, oh my God, I am in my body. And I don’t think I have been in my body. And, I have been living in a very disembodied way. Obviously, I’m I’m in my body. I get that that sounds crazy, but I think people who have had their first somatic experience like that will understand what I mean. Elise Loehnen 00:10:46 it was it was a huge moment. And then I had through that experience, some major physical releases. And, and I would say that that experience, I did it twice more and didn’t have it was that they were both good, but not of the same sort of seismic quality of the first session. But I’m so grateful to one. No, and it hasn’t really provoked any more curiosity in me, if that makes sense. Like, I don’t it’s not. It was enough. I don’t know exactly what happened, but it was enough. But it the fact that I could actually feel my body meant that I went forward. In my own therapy. I see a Jungian having a somatic understanding that I lacked before. So now I can talk to my body and I can feel into my body, and I can experience my emotions in my body in a totally, totally different way. Joe Sanok 00:11:41 Yeah. Now did that. So your your newest book on our best behavior, did those experience help those experiences help fuel or motivate that book? Or was that something that was already kind of bubbling up for you? Elise Loehnen 00:11:54 I’d say it did, and in part because it’s always shocking when you get new revelations about yourself and you realize the way that you’ve you’ve explained or told stories about who you are. Elise Loehnen 00:12:07 For me, it was it was a big moment like that where I was like, oh, I see all these ways I’ve compensated and all the ways that I’ve structured my life around this early information. And so that was part of of my book. My book is really about how women are conditioned for goodness and program for goodness, and how men are programmed for power. It’s not as much about men, but it gets into that and how so many of these stories run us and run our lives without our conscious awareness or subscription. It’s not like I said, I just really want to be a good one. I want everyone to think I’m a good woman. And that means, you know, I don’t need any rest and I don’t have any wants. And I’m very happy to subjugate anything that I want to other people’s needs, and I don’t need any attention or affirmation or praise, and I just want to be seen as desirable but not sexually desiring. And I think money is base and not really for me. Elise Loehnen 00:13:06 And I’m just going to be dependent on other people to give me the money they think that I deserve. And, I don’t have any physical hunger, really. I should be as small and restricted as possible, and I’m never going to get mad about any of it. It’s not like I signed up for that, but I recognized when I sort of had this download about this book. Oh my God, this is what it is to be a good woman. It’s to abide regardless of whether I was raised in a secular household. But it’s the seven deadly sins. It’s it’s sloth, pride, envy, greed, gluttony, lust and anger. And this is how women are all around me, of all varieties are living their lives. They are within these lines of what it is to be a good woman, and they are suppressing and repressing everything that they’ve been conditioned to believe is bad and projecting it onto other people. And we do this without our conscious awareness. and so, yeah, it was part of that. Elise Loehnen 00:14:11 It was part of this sort of insight of I might think I’m completely self authored and, but and autonomous and making my own decisions, but like, there’s something else in the house with me. Joe Sanok 00:14:27 so I’m a single dad raising two girls, primarily on my own. I’ve sold physical custody of them. Their mom has occasional visits, you know, every few months. so really, you know, for the most part, I’m mom and dad, even though they have a bio mom. But in the day to day, I’m mom and dad. I would like to think that I have a posture towards wanting to raise these badass women that want to go after the world and not perpetuating the patriarchy. All those things that I would like to do. And I’m also sure that I do things that I don’t even realize are perpetuating this programming. so thinking about what I. And I’ll just be selfish here, like, because I’ve got you here and that’s part of having a podcast, you can ask people whatever you want. Joe Sanok 00:15:15 so, so just starting with, like, me as a single dad, like, what would you say like that you discovered from your book? And I’m sure we I mean, it’s a book, so of course we could talk for hours and hours, but, like, what are a handful of things that for you, you would say, yeah, you have a lot of influence on your daughters, hears things that maybe the average dad doesn’t realize he’s doing that is detrimental. And here’s some low hanging fruit that you could just shift how you do things to make it a little less of that programming. Elise Loehnen 00:15:43 Yeah. So I’m going to answer this on two levels. So on one level, I think it’s amazing that they have a parent who is both mother and father, because I think that as humans we have access to the masculine and the feminine, and that if you think of the divine Masculine as structure, order, truth, direction, sort of an external idea, and you think of the feminine as nurturance, caring, creativity and love. Elise Loehnen 00:16:10 Those are sort of the the fullness or wholeness of what it is to be human. So I think for them, and I think most women really inherently understand this. I have a very strong masculine side. I spent a lot of time in my masculine, I think a lot of women, just by virtue of who we need to be in the world. We might not say say it in that way, but that we are very comfortable in both worlds. And I think men desperately need to let their feminine come up. So I think the very act of them experiencing you as their primary source of loving, nurturance and care is great. It’s a wonderful quality. that will get them far. So I just I just want to say that I think men, when we think about the crisis of masculinity and toxic masculinity and, and I think women can behave in toxically masculine and toxically patriarchal ways, too, that men if men could let their their feminine come up, they would be so much better off. Right? The cure for this is not more masculinity, it’s to let their feminine up. Elise Loehnen 00:17:17 so I think that’s incredible modeling, for them. And I think that that will give them a lot of space to understand that they are who they are, not outside of how what our, our culture and our society says that they should be. So that’s on one level. And then the other reason that I really wanted to write this book is that we live in this culture that’s highly individualistic and insists that everything is on you and everything is your problem right? And so that you should be able to locate all of your issues in your own life patterns. And if it’s not you, it’s your family. Right. And I was in a therapy session a couple of years ago and, and, and I caught myself my therapist was asking me, I have a lot of stuff happening in my throat chakra where I feel like I need to say the truth, but it’s hard and scary and that I sometimes feel silenced. And so we were talking about that and he said, where did you first learn that? And I said, well, it must have been my mother. Elise Loehnen 00:18:21 I just sort of reflexively was like, and he said, okay, like, let’s take me back. I was like, what the hell am I talking about? My mom is almost on the spectrum. She’s so unfiltered. Like, if there’s anyone who says it, it’s my mom. And she never policed me on my language and or my truth. And but I recognize I was like, oh, this is this is our Instinct is to take responsibility for things. And I am all all for personal responsibility. But to try to locate it in our immediate the four walls of our home and know this isn’t this isn’t coming from my parents. This is culture. And I think for so many women, we’re up against these cultural tides. And yet we’re convinced like that there’s something that’s in us, that’s our responsibility to sort of fix. And then all of this is resolved and it’s like, no, it’s so much bigger. So I think for your daughters, it’s just remembering that they’re going to learn, that or they have learned that aggression and girls is not okay, even though they have as much aggression as boys, but that their aggression can’t be overt. Elise Loehnen 00:19:34 It needs to come out in covert ways, alliance building, whisper networks, backstabbing, gossip, etc. but just reminding them like, this isn’t who you are. This is just how you’re socialized to be I think any doing that work, you know, of saying, just try to stay close to yourself, try to stay close to yourself, try to stay close to yourself because it’s so insistent and so insidious that we think it’s it becomes very hard to distinguish what’s me and what’s the me that I’m supposed to be. Joe Sanok 00:20:20 As a therapist, I can tell you from experience that having the right EHR is an absolute lifeline. I recommend using therapy notes. They make billing, scheduling, note taking, telehealth, and e-prescribing incredibly easy. Best of all, they offer live telephone support. It’s available seven days a week. You don’t have to take my word for it. Do your own research and see for yourself. Therapy notes is the number one highest rated EHR system available today with a 4.9 out of five stars on Trustpilot. Joe Sanok 00:20:52 Com and on Google. All you have to do is click the link below or type promo code Joe on their website over at Therapy notes.com and receive a special two month trial. Absolutely free. Again, that’s therapy notes. Com and use promo code Joe on the website. If you’re coming from another EHR therapy notes will also import your demographic data quick and easy at no cost, so you can get started right away. Trust me, don’t waste any more of your time and try therapy notes. Just use promo code Joe at checkout. Now, as you were writing the book, you know, as I was writing, Thursday is the new Friday. There’s a lot of things that surprised me. What surprised you as you started to research this book? Elise Loehnen 00:21:37 I mean, in some ways it was such a fun book because it, snap together in a way that was entirely unexpected. I was like, oh, this is sort of a novel and yet unoriginal frame. And then I realized as I went into the I wrote a whole chapter about the history of patriarchy and sort of where these scenes even came from, because I realized, like, I don’t know, the history of the patriarchy. Elise Loehnen 00:21:58 I just say things like it. They they’re them, you know, and I’m like, what is it? When did it start? Where did it come from? and same with these sons. I was like, oh, well, they were obviously in the Bible. Let me go and find the chapter and verse, you know. And then I was like, oh my God, these weren’t in the Bible. They came out of the Egyptian desert in the fourth century. Pope Gregory assigned them to all to Mary Magdalene in 580. and that’s where it started. And so for me, that was a huge which maybe seems obvious, but I’m like, oh, so much of what we hold to be true or essential or ancient or forever just kind of came out of culture. And maybe that sounds like the most obvious thing, but I had taken patriarchy for granted for example, we’re told this is who you are. This is how it’s always been. Well, not so. And even now, with new data, new research, we’re understanding that our prehistory was far more complex and interesting. Elise Loehnen 00:22:59 That man, the hunter, the woman hiding in the cave with the babies is not true. We were far more creative and individual than women were hunters. Women were warriors. Women were Vikings. I write about a study or a it was a New York Times piece. When I was writing the book where they went back into these graves in the Andes, 26 warriors, they had assumed that, you know, buried with their their weapons. They had assumed that they were all men. And then they went back in with newer technology and realized ten of the 26 were women. And so it becomes really fun, actually, to think, oh, wait, like we’re subscribed to all of these codes, but actually there’s a lot more flexibility. There’s a lot more creativity. A man can be different than this, than this mold that we try to force them into. And a woman can be different than this mold. And in fact, we are. That’s what we’re also learning. we’re very different. So that was a really fun insight. Elise Loehnen 00:24:06 and then I’d say originally I sort of pitched this book as a cultural, like a piece of cultural therapy where I was going to diagnose the culture and do all the research. And then my editor insisted that I write myself into it. And that was shocking, because I would have said, oh, I have this, and I have this, and I have this, and I’m a virtuous workaholic and I have my sexual trauma, and of course, I have my body issues, and I punish myself and talk about moralized myself about food like every other woman. But what I found as I wrote this book is, whoa, these are all in me in a way that I did not, would not have been able to recognize until I went through this process. Joe Sanok 00:24:49 Now, what are the habits of a woman that is trying to be un programmed? Now I’m sure there’s things that on a macro scale we could discuss that we could say, you know, these things need to shift in society. There’s lots of critique there. Joe Sanok 00:25:03 But for the individual women that are listening or men that are supporting them, or non-binary folks that are supporting each other. so what what would be if we start with that premise that women have been programmed for goodness, that that woman that says, I want to start the UN programming, or at least take steps into it, like, what would you suggest are habits or things that can be doing to start that? Elise Loehnen 00:25:28 Yeah, I mean, I would say it starts with sort of paying attention to yourself and where you feel this internal cattle prod for. I think for most women, it’s very easy to identify it. In the chapter on sloth and I open the book with that. I think any mother in particular, but really all women. what I will identify deeply with this chapter in terms of what the expectations are for a woman as a good mother and a good partner, a good housekeeper, etc.. And, you know, as I wrote this book, I recognize how much latent rage I feel towards my husband, who is an exceptional father, very engaged feminist, etc. I’m the primary breadwinner, and I had sort of expected, of course, like, well, my marriage will look different than my parents marriage because my father was the primary breadwinner. Elise Loehnen 00:26:21 And then I recognized like, oh no, we’re in the same patterns where I’m still there’s an expectation that I show up at at school, whereas I constantly hear like, oh my God, your dad, your husband is such a good dad because he splits drop off days with me, and men are constantly sort of being trophy or getting this extra credit for showing up. you know, just the other day, this is a progressive school. I heard my friend say to her, her husband, oh, I’m going to go to the School of Benefit. I need you to babysit for an hour. I’m like, Vanessa, it’s not babysitting. It’s parenting. Right? This is in progressive circles. He’s not helping you around. The house is being a partner. And so I went into this process sort of enraged at my husband because I was like, he doesn’t do as much as I do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then two years ago, I fell off a horse and I broke my neck and I was fine, but I was immobilized for a month. Elise Loehnen 00:27:19 I had to wear a brace, I couldn’t drive, I couldn’t pick anything up, I couldn’t cook, I couldn’t do laundry, etc. and it was fascinating, Joe, to be present with myself and how much consuming anxiety I had to sit with that I couldn’t perform these acts as a mother and a partner, and someone who prefers a clean house. And I recognized in that moment I’m like, oh yeah, my husband is not sort of like pounding on the table about our children’s extracurricular activities or demanding nutritious, fresh cooked meals or like, floors so clean you can eat off of them. This is me. And some of it’s my preference, yes, but so much of it is to try and make abate my anxiety about performing up to my standards and society’s standards, and it was a hugely eye opening experience for me because I couldn’t do anything about it. I was literally stuck in a neck brace and confined and constrained from executing all of these maneuvers to to make myself feel better. Joe Sanok 00:28:33 Wow. Yeah. Joe Sanok 00:28:35 I think that it’s interesting how those health things really can make you pause and evaluate what’s happening. in the fall of 2022. I did this event called, Clinic Camp in Cancun where people flew in. We did all these kind of deep dives into private practice, but it almost killed me. Ironically, I got salmonella, and then that didn’t get treated correctly. And then I’m like, at the time of this recording, I’m still dealing with the effects of that. So I’m 5 or 5 surgeries into this, like just insane. Yeah. And it’s like, you know, there have been times that, you know, after surgery, I’m just literally on the couch or in my bed for two weeks and trying to recover just so that my intestinal track bounces back. And it’s it is just amazing how much of culture we buy into, especially around productivity. And, you know, whether we’re whether man or woman, you know, we, we are in the United States that’s pushed so much that productivity. Joe Sanok 00:29:37 And lately I’ve been thinking about how when you think about just the genetics of the US, of who would leave their home country to move to this new world. You know what? Voluntarily. Of course. There are people that came here, not voluntarily. but, you know, it’s the adventures. It’s the people that maybe were the ones that didn’t quite fit in. They weren’t the next in line for the inheritance. And so we have this genetic pool of people to kind of have to prove themselves. and lately I’ve been really, like, thinking about that combined with just how much our society has pushed just comfort as a goal, whether there’s a pill or product for it. So just starting to just name these things for myself has been helpful to say when I’m not comfortable, that doesn’t mean something’s wrong, or when I feel this draw towards being overly productive. After the kids are in bed, that I can see, that I can observe that and say, I’m not. I’m going to try not to buy into that, even if that’s really hard, based on what I’ve. Elise Loehnen 00:30:32 Yes. Like that’s not you, right? Joe Sanok 00:30:35 Right. Yeah. So, so as we kind of start to land this episode, when you think about the book, on our best behavior and, and you think about, like, big takeaways you took from, from writing it, now I want everyone to go read it and, you know, dig in and learn from you. But for you personally, how are you now changed in how you have your own habits? You know, what are you your weekends or your weeks or your discussions with your partner? Like, how does that stuff look for you differently after doing this kind of work? Elise Loehnen 00:31:08 Yeah, I just I’m far more I do not do this perfectly. I’m just far more present with myself, including the way that I react to the world. And I’m constantly surveilling that and looking for information. this is out of the NV chapter, but that was in some ways the gateway to the book. because I was trying to understand the source of women on women hate and the way that we are so quick to police each other, just as quick to police ourselves in some ways. Elise Loehnen 00:31:39 But that what I. What I, where I landed was I think it’s undiagnosed unprocessed envy. Someone has something that we want or is doing something that we want. And instead, as women were conditioned by scarcity, we’re conditioned, by fear of being seen instead of saying, oh wow, that’s amazing. I can tell that I’m uncomfortable because she’s pushing on a dream I have for myself, or reflecting back something that I want. our instinct and said is to deprecate her, destroy her, make her go away, silence her, etc. and so I’d say for that, that’s the one I’ve been working with, even for an entire year of, okay, I’m having a reaction to this person. Can I identify the behavior? Or is this actually about me? And the more that I’m able to do that and experience my bad feelings? Joe, to be honest, just to let myself feel uncomfortable and quote unquote bad the farther I’ve gotten, I’d say in my own recovery of, like, okay, this moved through me. Elise Loehnen 00:32:45 It passed. I I’m I see the information. I understand that maybe there’s something really fruitful here that I need to look at. that’s been one of the biggest changes and the biggest changes amongst readers of the book. That’s what they really want to talk about. I think in part because women, recognize that we don’t really want to talk about women on women hate and how kind of terrible we can be to each other, because it’s not part of the narrative that we’re trying to put out into the world, which is like sisterhood and but that that there’s a lot of pain there, and we can’t heal it until we reveal it, until we are willing to work with it and recognize what its source is. And I think its source is really like so many of us have been self restricting, that when we see someone not self restricting, our impulse is like, why her or not me? I don’t like this. I’m a crab in a bucket. I’m going to pull this crab that’s trying to get free back into the bucket. Joe Sanok 00:33:47 Oh, I love that. The last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know. Elise Loehnen 00:33:55 I really think that somatic experiencing is the trick. I think if the more you can get your clients, particularly women, I’m sure men identify with this as well, but like back into their bodies where they can actually talk to their bodies. That that has been a boon for me. and I think it’s for, for so many women who are taught that sort of the body is base and gross and all the goodness happens in your head controlling this body. it can be intensely healing. Joe Sanok 00:34:27 that’s so awesome. before I ask you where people can find you, back in episode 910 and 920, we actually dug into somatic therapy. in both those episodes So if you want to dig into somatic psychotherapy, 910 and 920 are two episodes that will help you dig into that even more. If that’s something that’s inspiring to you as you’re listening. At least if people want to get the book, if people want to follow you, if they want to learn more about you, where should we send them? Elise Loehnen 00:34:53 Yeah, the book is on our best behavior the seven deadly sins and the Price Women Pay to be good. Elise Loehnen 00:34:59 My podcast is called Pulling the Thread, which is also the name of my Substack newsletter. And then I’m on Instagram at Elise Lunin. Joe Sanok 00:35:09 So awesome. Thank you for all the work you do and thanks for being on the show. Elise Loehnen 00:35:13 Thank you. And. Joe Sanok 00:35:22 I love books that incorporate the author’s journey, as well as information. I think as therapists were uniquely positioned in a lot of different ways, to, to do that kind of writing And as you’re listening to these movers and shakers, I hope that your wheels are turning. I just got off the heels of. We do this thing called your practice intensive here at my house, and different consulting clients will fly in. And yesterday it wrapped up, and we’re doing another one. October 22nd, 23rd. and it’s interesting how finding time is a big thing. A lot of people, when they’re thinking about that creativity struggle with. And we talked about just having the basic framework of what’s on your plate right now, like, is it overflowing? Is it free? Is it somewhere in between? And if it’s overflowing, don’t try that new creative stuff. Joe Sanok 00:36:16 you know, look at how you can outsource, how you can add more clinicians, how you can make sure that you are doing the very best use of your time. And then once you’ve freed up that time, then go into those creative gambles, that creative meandering up to see, like, do you want to start a podcast? Do you want to write a book? Do you want to make an e-course? Do you want to just start talking on TikTok, if that even exists at the time of this, release anymore. do you want to just go create content somewhere and just see what lands with people? so often, especially when people are highly trained, when you have masters and doctorates, we want to know that we’re going to do it right. We want to know the formula to get the PhD. but the reality is, is the business world, the creative world is about trying things, seeing if it sticks with an audience, but also doesn’t stick with you. there’s no point in creating this 20 part e-course, recording it all and then realizing, well, there’s not an audience for that, or I don’t actually like talking about that topic. Joe Sanok 00:37:10 So I want to just encourage you to either look at your current plate, take some things off of it, outsource it. It can be as simple as, you know, hiring the neighbor kid to help with long lawn work. It could be as simple as just having groceries delivered a couple times a week to just take that off your plate. or it could be hiring a bunch more clinicians. in your practice, you can do less clinical work, then put some time into those creative things that may end up helping you scale differently and do work that you love even more. We couldn’t do this show without our amazing sponsors. Therapy Notes is one of our longest sponsors we have had. They are the best electronic health records out there. If you are with a different EHR, that is not therapy notes, they’ll help you transfer over. They have a team that you can talk on the phone to if things go awry. They can also automatically bill through their platform. Also, all of the tele therapy is right embedded within therapy notes. Joe Sanok 00:38:02 They are the best EHR out there. Use promo code Joe at checkout and you’re going to get a few months for free. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band. Silence is sexy for that intro music, and this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. 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