The Neuroscience of Pleasure and Serving the Asian Community with Jonathan Le | POP 764

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A photo of Jonathan Le is captured. Jonathan Le is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor and the Founder of Anchor Point Professional Counseling. Jonathan Le is featured on Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.

What is your approach to achieving complete holistic wellness? Is that possible to achieve? How can old patterns stop you from unlocking a new level of well-being and joy in your life?

In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks about the neuroscience of pleasure and serving the Asian community with Jonathan Le.

Podcast Sponsor: Therapy Notes

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Meet Jonathan Le

A photo of Jonathan Le is captured. He is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor and the Founder of Anchor Point Professional Counseling, a mental health private practice. Jonathan is featured on the Practice of the Practice, a therapist podcast.Jonathan Le is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor and the Founder of Anchor Point Professional Counseling, a mental health private practice located in North Bethesda, Maryland. As a Cambodian, first generation college graduate and business owner, Jonathan is passionate about bringing mental health awareness to minority communities.

Jonathan hosts mental health workshops and continuing education courses to educate business professionals, local churches, and members of the Asian community about depression and anxiety.

Visit Anchor Point Professional Counseling and connect on Twitter, Psychology Today, and LinkedIn.

In This Podcast

  • Jonathan’s approach to complete holistic wellness
  • Applying structure to client clinical work
  • The neuroscience of pleasure
  • How old patterns can stop you from prioritizing pleasure
  • Jonathan’s advice to therapists who work with the Asian community
  • Jonathan’s advice to private practitioners

Jonathan’s approach to complete holistic wellness

On a weekly or monthly basis, Jonathan creates a Ven diagram made up of four circles, and eight overlapping pieces.

Each main circle encompasses different areas of health and wellness in his life, and they are:

1 – Biological

2 – Psychological

3 – Social

4 – Spiritual

He will use different colors to color-code how things are happening and their states of progress in his life.

Hypothetically, in blue, I’ll list out in bullet points things that I feel like I’m doing well in … and then in red, I’ll write out areas that I would like to improve in … for self-care, personal development, whatever it may fall into. (Jonathan Le)

Jonathan uses this Ven diagram to get a bird’s eye view of all the areas in his life to see, completely, where he is at in life, and where he still wants to go.

Within the Ven diagram, he creates targeted goals for himself in the red areas by looking at frequency, intensity, and duration. In other words, how long, how strong, and how often are these goals?

Applying structure to client clinical work

You can use this idea, and other similar ones, in sessions with clients to help them visualize and work on the aspects that they want to improve within their lives.

Sometimes I’ll do [the Ven diagram exercise] during my intake appointments because I find that it’s helpful in goal-setting and figuring out a sense of direction in terms of where we want to go as counselor and client with therapy. (Jonathan Le)

You can use the Ven diagram to discuss strategies and goals that can be turned into small actionable steps that the client can take to bring holistic wellness back into their lives, from psychological health to physical and mental health.

At the end of the day, the full totality of our humanity and how we function as people goes well beyond our mental health. (Jonathan Le)

The neuroscience of pleasure

People need to reinforce and prioritize the things that bring them pleasure and joy in their daily life.

The human brain functions on a reward system. Often, the release of dopamine in the brain is created by the stimulus and association of what we find as pleasurable, from desserts to exercise.

One of the reasons why we get into the habits, patterns, and lifestyle rhythms that we find ourselves in is because our brains have essentially released dopamine from that rewards center and created an association and a narrative in our minds of, “Wow, this is good for me” or “wow, I enjoy this”. (Jonathan Le)

This is why you can incorporate the Ven diagram of the holistic health and wellness model alongside the neuroscience of pleasure.

Reinforce and continually practice healthy habits and routines that will bring you pleasure and joy so that the brain can process and adapt to the new healthier habit and rhythm that you’re substituting for older, perhaps unhealthier habits.

How old patterns can stop you from prioritizing pleasure

Personal history and family culture play a massive role in how people determine schedules, activities, and the things that they learn to prioritize in life.

In a lot of different cultures, we have different value systems that really affect how we engage [with] and live our lives and oftentimes, these value systems – if we’re not careful and we don’t keep them in check – they can interfere with our quality of life. (Jonathan Le)

People learn, sometimes unintentionally, about how to approach life from their parents. Often, their parents’ circumstances were so different from what is real now, but those old patterns persist in a new environment because their children have learned from them.

I had established this lifelong routine of finding my identity and my worth in what I could produce, what I could accomplish, and what I could achieve … [I had to figure out] what I’m about, what are [the] value systems that I want to carry on with? (Jonathan Le)

Look back over your life and ask yourself; what has been sustainable and what hasn’t been sustainable? Can you revise, edit, and change this narrative?

Jonathan’s advice to therapists who work with the Asian community

Explore, and ask explorative and engaging questions to learn more about their lived experience and their culture.

At the end of the day, there are sometimes stigma and stereotypes that are associated with Asian culture that people can fall into the trap of believing when they don’t take the time to ask intentional and engaging questions.

Show that you care, show that you want to learn. Ask open-ended questions and strive to learn more.

Jonathan’s advice to private practitioners

Own your story. Going through your journey and processing your life will help you to enhance your ability to help others.

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Meet Joe Sanok

A photo of Joe Sanok is displayed. Joe, private practice consultant, offers helpful advice for group practice owners to grow their private practice. His therapist podcast, Practice of the Practice, offers this advice.

Joe Sanok helps counselors to create thriving practices that are the envy of other counselors. He has helped counselors to grow their businesses by 50-500% and is proud of all the private practice owners that are growing their income, influence, and impact on the world. Click here to explore consulting with Joe.

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Podcast Transcription

[JOE SANOK] This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, session number 764. I’m Joe Sanok, your host and welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. We’re here four days a week now, teaching you how to start, grow, scale and exit your private practice. We interview clinicians that are doing the work, we interview people around marketing and SEO or just business people I find interesting and even people that aren’t business people that I find interesting. For me, it’s important to have a diverse lens in regards to where we dragging information from. There was this one story in, I think it was a Malcolm Gladwell book where an ER in England, they were having all these problems when they transitioned from like the ER, the patients from the ER into their rooms. I remember they went and they trained, I think it was in like Germany or France with this Formula One race car pit crew to see how they quickly changed tires and changed oil and I don’t know, cars, but all that stuff that they do in a pit for a racing team all within 45 seconds. They learned from that ways that they could systematize what they were doing in the ER and the amount of problems and human error just plummeted. It’s really amazing how when we get information from outside of our field, it really informs us but also it’s good to hear about people that are in our field doing really innovative things. That’s what’s so exciting about having Jonathan Le with us today. Jonathan is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor and the founder of Anchor Point Professional Counseling, a mental health private practice in Maryland. As a Cambodian first-generation college graduate and business owner, Jonathan is passionate about bringing mental health awareness to minority communities. He hosts mental health workshops and continuing Ed courses to educate business professionals, local churches and members of the Asian community about depression and anxiety. He’s also a big foodie and will travel anywhere in the world just to try a dish from a renowned chef. During his free time, he enjoys playing volleyball, spending time with family, trying out new restaurants, and reading a good book. Jonathan, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. [JONATHAN LE] Thanks for having me. [JOE] Yes, well first I have to start with what’s one or two of the best meals you’ve ever had? I mean, with that in your intro, I have to ask that. [JONATHAN] Oh, great question. So actually, one of my biggest bucket list items was to travel to Japan to try the best sushi in the world, which is actually in Tokyo. I was able to do it successfully right before the pandemic, just a few months before the pandemic started in 2019. Oh, my goodness, it was the best experience of my life. Literally flew out there, spent a couple of weeks with friends, and one of my last final nights there was able to reserve a spot. I was very fortunate because a friend of mine was actually able to secure me a spot in advance through like a celebrity connection so it worked out perfect. But basically, they seat only eight people a day and the sushi dojos that prepare the fish in advance, they have their chefs drive out to different parts of Japan just to catch one specific fish that they want and bring it back and prepare it right there so it’s absolutely fresh. Three Michelin Star Place, oh my goodness, the experience was phenomenal. I literally felt every single quadrant of my tongue activating with different flavors that I was experiencing as I was trying each of the pieces that they offered us. Oh, my goodness, I was just locked in this moment of euphoria that I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to experience again, honestly with sushi, but that’s one of my top memories and experiences just because sushi’s actually one of my favorite foods and to have tried it from someone who’s such an expert and such a huge renowned person was just a great experience. His name was Jlo so he actually has a Netflix documentary about his life and his story and everything. He even watches how he eats and his diet because he believes that his hands affect the flavor of the food that he makes so it’s just like a lifelong pursuit and passion of his and you can really experience that in the quality of food he produces. [JOE] Oh, I just love the art of food. I interviewed Brian who they have a Michelin star-rated restaurant out in Seattle and he ended, they’re the third generation that have owned this restaurant and it’s just this insane restaurant. I got to go there one time when I was out there and their model is they’ll fly their top people anywhere they want in the world once a year to go to the restaurant of their choice. So they just want to learn and bring things back. There was, I think, he said that they brought it back from Japan the idea that every single drink they serve, the glass it’s served in is as much of an ingredient. So they have a specific glass for every single drink that they serve in this restaurant. It’s just that, that idea of craft and just doing something at such a level that 99% of people don’t care, but that 1% that comes just appreciates it so much. It’s just so cool to see. [JONATHAN] Oh yes, yes, definitely. As a side note, one thing I love doing with my clients sometimes, especially when we’re talking about emotional regulation, distress tolerance, things like that is sometimes I’ll do mindful eating exercises in session where I have like a five census chart, see, touch, hear, smell, taste, and I literally will slowly eat food with my clients and have them write down and jot down observations that they’re making while they’re eating a particular meal that they enjoy. Just to encourage them, invite them into an experience of just being more aware and more present with whatever they’re doing so that they can really absorb the experience and take it in for all it’s worth. [JOE] Well, so you do a lot of work around health and wellness and bio psychosocial approaches. Was that always your clinical direction or was that something that emerged over time? [JONATHAN] I think it’s something that I learned based on personal experience because for me, quite honestly, I grew up in a really competitive environment where a lot of people around me were just academically inclined in a lot of different ways and professionally inclined. There were just so many areas in which people overwhelmed themselves with being busy and being caught up and preoccupied with trying to catch up to the expectations of others. So I think naturally over time I just learn to be more practical about self-care and having more of a balance in how I pursue my everyday life and what I do. [JOE] So what does that look like for you personally, because I always love hearing how business leaders think about their own health and wellness first before they even talk to their clients? [JONATHAN] Yes, yes, for me, I have targeted goals that, I know this sounds really specific and structured, but I like to subcategorize my goals. So there’s actually a Venn diagram exercise that I do for myself before I even do it with clients. But on a week-to-week basis, I have like this quadruple Venn diagram, if you can remember what Venn diagrams are from elementary school, overlapping circles. I have four different sections of circles and each of the circles encompasses one important area of health and wellness. The four categories are biological, psychological, social, and spiritual. What I do for myself is I color code how things are going on in my life. Hypothetically in blue I’ll list out and I’ll bullet point areas that I feel like I’m doing well in biologically, psychologically, socially. Then in red I’ll actually write out areas that I would like to improve in and work in myself for self-care and personal character development, whatever it may fall into biologically, psychologically, and socially. So I’m able to use that visual diagram to get a bird’s eye view of literally every single area that I’m doing well in contrast to what I need to improve in all at once and I can completely see it all at once. Then I create target goals for myself in each of the red areas. One way I do that is working on frequency, intensity, and duration, so how long, how strong and how often are the goals that I set for myself and what I’d like to improve in. Basically, for intensity I’ll rank out on a 1 to 10 scale what is my desirability level in terms of how strongly I’d like to pursue a goal or work on this particular red area? If it’s higher on a 1 to 10 scale and my desirability level is higher, then I will accommodate for a higher frequency and duration in which I pursue that particular goal for that week. I break it down subcategory wise and just topically so that in every single area and aspect of my own wellness and health I’m catering to and looking at different ways to always constantly improve myself on a day-to-day basis. [JOE] I just love that health and wellness is often so like woo-woo, like we’ll just see go to yoga once or twice a week and eat some kale. People oftentimes are so free about it but you totally just blew my mind that your health and wellness is so systematized and clear as to where you’re at, where you need to improve, knowing where you’re headed. Did that come out of trying something that didn’t work and needing to improve the process or was that just how you think when it comes to goal setting? [JONATHAN] Yes, so honestly it comes out of my own personal orientation and just philosophy and how I like to learn and also how I like to practice as a clinician. So I’m very multisensory based and how I like to process information and learn and retain different pieces of things that I’m trying to think about for the first time. So what I love about this exercise is that it integrates three different senses. So there’s the visual aspect in that things are color coded and I can literally look back three, six months into the future and go, “Oh yes, this area was red for me, it was an area for improvement, but hey, I’ve gotten better at it. Maybe I can switch this over to a blue category.” There’s the visual interaction there. There’s also the tactile, so if I’m doing this exercise, typically I’ll do it on a poster board, so I’ll be able to write it out, draw it out, map it out, use markers to color code, so there’s that tactile engagement in that exercise. Then there’s auditory, so if I’m talking about it out loud and processing it out loud verbally, it also allows me to engage in that part and that region of my brain that lets me process that information as well. I’ve just found that as I’m doing multisensory things, not just for myself, but with my clients in general, memory retention and information processing goes a lot more smoothly because I’m able to think more creatively and my mind is opened and widened to more possibilities. [JOE] Oh, I love it. I would just love to see that. I think it sounds really interesting as a way to conceptualize your own personal goals. When you think about working with clients, what challenges do you find in applying this type of system to clients because I imagine it’s one thing to have a system that works for you and the way that you think through things, are there challenges or adaptations you’ve had to do to directly apply this to some of your clinical work? [JONATHAN] Yes, yes, so the biggest thing, and this is something that all therapists and mental health professionals can relate to, is at the end of the day we have to meet our clients where they’re at. So when it comes to even trying this exercise out, sometimes I’ll do it during my intake appointments because I find that it’s helpful in goal setting and really figuring out a sense of direction in terms of where we want to go as counselor and client with therapy. But if I’m looking at things even let’s say hypothetically. ,’m looking at things diagnostically. So we have the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual that outlines the specific diagnostic criterion and symptomologies of what categorizes in a variety of different disorders. So if I’m working with a client that maybe per se has major depressive disorder, then I will customize and tailor our approach to that biopsy psychosocial diagram to the specific diagnostic criterions and the specific symptoms that that client is experiencing on a day to day basis. Let’s say hypothetically they have a really hard time getting out of bed or they have a hard time engaging in self-care routines, hygiene, exercise, things like that, then we’ll start to talk about strategies and goals that relate to their specific symptomology but are also relative to their holistic health and wellness. Because at the end of the day, the full totality of our humanity and how we function as people goes well beyond our own mental health. We have to really consider all these different other areas that allow us to function and operate in the world at large. So that psychological, that social and that spiritual aspect in addition to the biological is super critical important because it helps people understand more depth into who they are and their identities and yes, just who they are as individuals. [THERAPY NOTES] Is managing your practice stressing you out? Try Therapy Notes. It makes notes, billing, scheduling, and tele-health a whole lot easier. Check it out and you will quickly see why it’s the highest rated EHR on Trustpilot with over 1000 verified customer views and an average customer rating of 4.9 out of five stars. You’ll notice the difference from the first day you sign up for a trial. They offer live phone support seven days a week so when you have questions, you can quickly reach out to someone who can help. You are never wasting your time looking for answers. If you’re coming from another EHR, they make the transition really easy. Therapy Notes will import your clients’ demographic data free of charge during your trial so you can get going right away. Use the promo code [JOE], to get the first three months totally free to try it out, no strings attached. Remember, telehealth is included with every subscription free. Make 2022 the best year yet with Therapy Notes. Again, use promo code [JOE] to get three months totally free. [JOE SANOK] I know that we were talking a little bit about some of the neuroscience that you’ve been studying in regards to the neuroscience of pleasure. Tell us a little bit more about that because I think that weaves into this conversation around health and wellness and bio psychosocial. [JONATHAN] Yes, yes, I’m glad that you asked that question. I actually hosted a CEU class earlier. It’s now on demand on my website. One thing that I talk to clients about all the time when it comes to neuroscience of pleasure is that it’s really important for us to reinforce and prioritize the things that bring us pleasure and joy in life because the reality is as human beings, we are socially conditioned and primed to prioritize the things that bring us pleasure. Just to oversimplify something that I could probably talk about for a really long time and digs into like the neurophysiology of the brain something that is very like evident and apparent is that we have a reward system in our brains. So the ventral strum is actually where the pleasure center in our brains are and oftentimes the release of dopamine in that region of the brain is what creates this stimulus and association and this pairing of what we find as pleasurable. So like if there’s a dessert that you enjoy, if there’s an activity that you enjoy, if exercising is something you love to do, one of the reasons why we get into the habits and the patterns and the lifestyle rhythms that we find ourselves in is because our brains have essentially released dopamine from that reward center and created an association and a narrative in our minds of, wow, this is good for me, or wow, I really enjoy this, let me do this again. So connecting that back to the holistic health and wellness model and the Biosocial model, one thing I always encourage clients to do is to reinforce and continually practice healthy habits and routines for themselves that bring pleasure and joy so that their brain can process and accommodate to and adapt to the new healthier habit and rhythm that they’re substituting old unhealthy habits and rhythms for moving forward in life. [JOE] What either cultural or religious or spiritual or family of origin things get in the way of people prioritizing their own pleasure? [JONATHAN] Great question, so culture plays a huge, huge role in how we determine the schedules and the activities and the things we prioritize in life. For instance, for myself, I’m Cambodian. A little bit of a background to my story, my mom actually my migrated here from Cambodia after the Cambodian genocide. She was basically enslaved and imprisoned in this society where there was a communist regime and there was so much going on. She witnessed a lot of people being killed and murdered and so many homicides, so much going on at the time but one of the reasons why I bring that up is because even from my Cambodian roots and my background, there’s a lot of influence of just this sort of shame honor culture system. There’s a lot of Buddhism. Buddhism exists in a lot of different Southeast Asian cultures, partly because after war and different things that took place like with the Cambodian genocide, for instance, the Kamer Rouge that my mother suffered through, Buddhism was a way for a lot of people to connect with their ancestors and people that died that they were not able to have a longevity of relationships with because they passed away. So it’s this sense of collectivism and sense of attachment to the family system in a way that goes beyond the physical human life experience. I bring that up partly because even growing up, I’m not Buddhist anymore, I actually converted to Christianity, but Buddhism played a huge role in just how I prioritized and managed things, especially with the shame-honor culture system. I prioritized the things that brought me more recognition and that helped me be established and have a name for myself. Even as I was going through school and growing up and experiencing all these different things, it was always about like, what achievements could I accomplish? I think in a lot of different cultures, we have different value systems that really affect how we engage in and live our lives. Oftentimes, these value systems, if we’re not careful and we don’t keep them in check, they can really interfere with our quality of life. I know for me, I was very susceptible and vulnerable to burnout and fatigue in general even before I entered the mental health field, partly because I had established this lifelong routine of finding my identity and my worth and what I could produce and what I could accomplish and what I could achieve. So part of that journey in that process is like identity formation and exploration and really figuring out, well, what am I about? What are the value systems that I want to carry on with for the duration of my life? What looking back has been sustainable and what hasn’t been so sustainable and really revising and editing and changing that narrative up? [JOE] How have you conceptualized for yourself the shift in your family? Like I think there I would feel, and I mean you’re not necessarily going to feel the same way, but if my parents had been through a genocide and then I’m in a country where that’s not happening to me or my family, the pressure I would probably feel of, wow, my parents went through that, they escaped that, they got me here and I have all these choices, I feel like I would feel such pressure to achieve and be everything to everyone that, I don’t know that in the first generation I would get to the neuroscience of pleasure like you. How did that happen where, maybe just talk about that experience of having a mom who went through such horrific things and then it seems like you’ve undone some of that pressure that I would feel probably for like my whole life. I don’t know if that makes sense. I’m just articulating what I, yes. [JONATHAN] That makes complete sense. For me it was a process of individuation, honestly. I had to find my own sense of identity outside of my family cultural system and the different values that were instilled in me growing up. Part of that journey and that exploration was actually spiritual exploration for me quite honestly. So in addition to being like a first generation business owner and college graduate and pretty much first generation everything, given my family background, I also am the first Christian in my family and I think for me, just diving into spirituality and Christianity and finding a sense of community with other people who identified with my new belief system and my new value system and how I was choosing to live my life moving forward and making it more Christ-centered and God-centered and not as much in alignment with my Buddhist values from the past, that was a huge piece in terms of helping me find my own sense of identity. But at the same time, that’s an extremely challenging journey for every single minority, especially ones who their parents have migrated from another country because there’s this strong expectation to align with generational cultural values and things like that. For me, what I’ve found, and this ties into the neuroscience of pleasure in that as I have engaged in a variety of different spiritual disciplines and allowed myself to practice different things that I find pleasure and joy in, I actually was able to not only discover who I was as an individual and my own identity, but because I found pleasure and joy in these new practices and disciplines, whether it was scripture reading or Bible study or actually doing a variety of different things with people at church and finding new common ground that way. It it rewired the neuro pathways in my brain in terms of how I perceived spirituality and myself and what I wanted to do with my life and the different schedules and routines altogether. [JOE] Yes. [JONATHAN] So yes, community played a huge role in that for sure. [JOE] For sure. Now I know that you do a lot of work with the Asian community and even in your bio talking about some of the education you do tell us a little bit about that work because I feel like at least in northern Michigan there’s not a huge Asian community and I think that just to educate people on what are some of the emerging issues emerging mindsets and obviously, in 10 minutes we can’t cover like tutorial on the Asian community, but like what are you seeing in the work you do and how are you addressing problems that you see from your point of view? [JONATHAN] One thing that I really enjoy doing is public speaking. I get invited to different organizations, different churches, and I just provide psychoeducation on mental health. I think two of the most common things that I talk about time and time again honestly are depression and anxiety when it comes to educating the Asian community of just different groups, Southeast Asian, Northeast Asian. I’ll sometimes talk at Vietnamese churches or Chinese churches or Korean churches. Sometimes I’ll get invited to different speaking events for targeted Asian communities. But I love reflecting on and exploring mental health and especially mood disorders because one thing I find time and time again, this is something that isn’t just relative to like the Asian community and population, but I think with most what we would consider minority cultures, there’s a lack of education when it comes to mental health just in general. Part of that has to do with the westernization of just psychology and how it’s just so, a lot of things are very Americanized in different ways. So when I’m talking to people in Asian community, I think a lot of what we would consider even in the DSM as like depressive symptoms or anxiety symptoms a lot of people in the Asian community would actually socially normalize a lot of different behaviors. So when I’m going out — [JOE] What’s an example of that, just for people that maybe wouldn’t know, what’s something that would be considered socially normative that maybe would typically be diagnosable in white euro cis culture? [JONATHAN] Yes, yes, great question. So sleep hygiene for instance, is a really big thing. I’ve noticed time and time again that a lot of people in the Asian community, they’ll fill their schedules up with so many activities and so many things to the point where at the end of the day it’s really hard for them to go to sleep and to actually wind down because their minds are so stimulated and so packed with responsibilities and pressure to perform and all these different things. So what we would diagnostically consider to be insomnia, for instance, just like less sleep in general or difficulty sleeping or waking up in the middle of the night and having a difficult time going back to bed, a lot of people in the Asian culture have actually socially normalized because at the end of the day, sleep ends up being less a priority in favor of accomplishments and achievements and what you were able to get done throughout the duration of your day. Part of that has to do with the shame-honor culture system of just Asian culture in general, this idea of prioritizing and valuing goals, accomplishments, achievements, and having a name for yourself and having a name for your family and putting that first right in favor of your own personal self-care. [JOE] For, oh, go ahead. [JONATHAN] Oh, sorry, I was just going to say, and eating as well. I think a lot of, one thing I’ve noticed time and time again is just like lack of appetite, which again is another diagnosable thing under major depressive disorder with appetite changes and stuff. I’ve noticed time and time again, a lot of people in the Asian community will skip meals or will eat less in favor of being on the go and again, prioritizing the things that would allow them to be perceived as successful. [JOE] Yes. Well, and I think that then there’s a tendency to say, well, we’re doing it right where we sleep and we eat versus this is how this culture is and it’s not our place to jump in and say, change your culture, but to say, is this working for you? Do you want to make changes here and to honor where people are at as you do with any client. What do you think that, like I think about northern Michigan, I would say most therapists here are white if they’re working with an Asian family or an Asian client, what are some just basic things that you would say are just things to be aware of or even if there’s tools or resources that you would recommend to just build their skill set just to be more knowledgeable than where they’re at now? [JONATHAN] This sounds like a common sense, simple thing that sounds obvious to say out loud, but honestly one big step in a positive direction is simply just exploration and asking open-ended engaging questions to learn more about culture of Asian clients. Because at the end of the day, I think that there are probably a lot more stigma and stereotypes that come to, that are associated with Asian culture, that when a lot of people don’t take the time to actually ask intentional questions and really show that they all care or want to learn more about someone else’s culture, that that person can feel minimized because at the end of the day, they’re just being reduced to certain stereotypes and no one’s really taking the time to really explore, learn more. So simply just asking and engaging in open-ended questions can be really helpful just in terms of wanting to learn more. But another thing that I’ve just learned just with Asian clients in general and people in the Asian community, we are oftentimes conflict-avoidant. So we will avoid emotions, we will avoid feelings. Again, that ties into what can eventually come out as anxiety or depression over a long period of time as well just suppressing emotions. But because we are non-confrontational and we are conflict-avoidant, it can sometimes be also helpful and important to ask direct questions in relation to personal health or mental health or just in general, whatever you’re trying to analyze or assess. Because at the end of the day, a lot of Asian Americans are simply just not aware, self-aware of how they’re actually doing in terms of their health and their wellness, because there oftentimes seems to be other prioritizations that get in the way of their ability to just be mindful and present in the moment with how they’re doing. [JOE] Well, Jonathan, the last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know [JONATHAN] Own your story. I say that not lightly because I think that one thing that has helped improve my ability to operate as a therapist is that I’ve gone through my own journey and my own process in understanding the entire lifelong narrative of my past and how it connects to who I am today. I think oftentimes as clinicians and providers, we can sometimes overlook or forget to do the own, the specific healing work that’s involved with unpacking our own narrative and our own life story and helping us come to a place of recognizing the beauty of the brokenness and the dysfunction that we may have encountered or grown up with, and how that contributes to the strength and the resilience of who we are today. [JOE] So amazing. Jonathan, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast. If people want to connect with you, if they want to follow your work, where’s the best place to send them? [JONATHAN] Yes, so my website is anchorpointpc.com. The name of my practice is Anchor Point Professional Counseling, anchor, like associated with boats, so A N C H O R Point Professional Counseling. That’s probably the best way to just get in contact with me and to reach out as well. [JOE] Awesome. Well thank you so much for being on the show today. Thanks [JONATHAN] For having me. [JOE] Well, go take some action whether it’s thinking through your health and wellness goals, serving people in your community, looking at the neuroscience of pleasure or even just eating a meal where you pay attention to your five senses. Do something with what you learned today from Jonathan. We could not do this show without our amazing sponsors. Today’s sponsor is Therapy Notes. Therapy Notes is the top electronic health records out there. They include all of the teletherapy platform in it, so you don’t need a Zoom business account and have to get a business associates agreement with Zoom or things like that. All of the payments, it integrates great with everything that is going to keep your practice going. Check out therapynotes.com and use promo code {JOE] at checkout so they know that their podcast sponsorship’s working, but also so that you can get some free months as well. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.