[LATOYA SMITH] The Grow A Group Practice Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice Network, a network of podcast seeking to help you market Grow your business Yourself. To hear other podcasts like the Practice of the Practice podcast, go to www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. You are listening to the Grow A Group Practice Podcast, a podcast focused on helping people start, grow, Scale a group practice. Each week you’ll hear topics that are relevant to group practice owners. I’m LaToya Smith, a practice owner, I love hearing about people’s stories Real-life experiences. So let’s get started. Welcome back to the Grow A Group Practice Podcast. I’m LaToya Smith, your host and you know we talk about all things private practice, especially group practice, so how to grow your practice, how to build your practice, and scale. And I always love talking to people doing great things in the community regarding mental health. We know it’s a topic that never gets old, a topic that’s always important, but always great when we find group practices doing new innovative things. So today I am excited because I don’t, I have two guests on today and they are both members, are part of the collective of The Counseling Brothers of Atlanta. Avery and Nafis welcome to the podcast. [NAFIS RICKS] Thank you for having me. [LATOYA] Yeah. [AVERY] Yeah, likewise. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to share what we do on your platform. [LATOYA] Awesome, awesome. So you both, I just want, first if you could just introduce yourselves to the audience. We can start with Avery, then Nafis, just tell us a little bit about yourself. [AVERY] Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Avery Rosser. I am a Licensed Professional Counselor as well as a Certified Professional Counselor Supervisor in the state of Georgia. 2nd year doctoral student at the University of Georgia, where I’m studying counseling education supervision. I also work with the US Department of Veteran Affairs as a suicide prevention telehealth therapist. I have my own private practice based out of Atlanta, counseling private practice that is and I am the current president CEO of The Counseling Brothers of Atlanta. [LATOYA] Awesome. [NAFIS] I’m Nafis Ricks, originally from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Currently in my first year of my clinical mental health counseling program at Georgia State University. I’m a mentee of The Counseling Brothers Atlanta, also new community engagement member of Counseling Brothers of Atlanta. [LATOYA] Awesome. This is exciting. So Avery, do you have a, your own practice and then there’s The Counseling Brothers of Atlanta? Like it’s separate? [AVERY] They’re separate, yes. [LATOYA] So tell me about The Counseling Brothers. So I was thinking it’s one whole group practice, but now it’s like a collective of different therapists. [AVERY] Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. So The Counseling Brothers of Atlanta is a collective of black males that own their own proper practice. So we are a nonprofit organization where we’ve come together, men of like mind, like minds, similar attainments to put our resources together, to put our practices together to provide resources, i.e., counseling services, educational resources, training, things of that nature specifically for the black community. So yeah, we are collectively, we only operate our own practice, but we’ve come together under the umbrella of The Counseling Brothers of Atlanta to ensure that we can fill that gap within our community. [LATOYA] Yeah, that’s really good. So everybody owns their own practice. Everybody’s like a group practice owner, or it doesn’t matter, it’s a therapist? [AVERY] So there’s some that have group practice, some that are individual based, so there’s a variety of different types of practices within the umbrella of The Counseling Brothers. [LATOYA] What, how long has The Counseling Brothers’ been established? [AVERY] Wow. So I’ll give you a quick bash story. Hopefully it’s quick. So The Counseling Brothers started off with this idea, well, it started off with three members that would be Lamar Walker, Dr. Alvin Sutherland and, I’m drawing a blank on his name right now. God rest his soul. But it was three black males. They were just simply meeting for lunch once a month on a Saturday and so I got added to the chat and we started to add more black male therapists. We was like, wow, there are more of us in Atlanta than what we thought. So during one of our meetings I had this idea of, wow, this can really be something transformative. There’s nothing like this. We can literally be an entire nonprofit organization. The brother said, look, come, when you come up with the concept with the ideas, we’ll back you. So we started coming up with different types of names for the organization and really focusing, we wanted to create an organization that really addresses those needs that were in our community, one of those needs being access to black male therapists. It’s very difficult to find black male therapists. We are less than 2% of the counseling field. So by coming together, we eliminate that barrier of figuring out where to find us at. We’re all in one place. The other gap that was in that’s in the field that impacts our community is mentorship and what we mean by that is mentoring black male master level students. As you know, as I mentioned, there already is a scarcity of black male counselors that are within the field. I remember when I was going through my program, I didn’t see anyone that looked like me. I had one black male professor so it was rare that I would come across black males I didn’t really get any guidance. I didn’t get anybody showing me the ropes. So that mentorship is a critical component to developing your skills as a clinician. So what we did is that, okay, well, let’s provide mentorship. Let’s find these black male students let them know that they have support, so we offer practicum placement, internship placement, just personal mentorship, professional mentorship, access to continuing education. We walked them through the whole entire licensing process. So we wanted to really create that aspect of the organization. Then the last piece is that community engagement piece. We wanted to bring the therapy to the community. One of the issues that we see as it relates to the black community seeking support is there’s a mistrust about what mental health, the mental health field is. We understand the historical context of that mistrust. So as a way of saying, hey, you guys come to us, we’re saying we’re going to come to you. So we’re going to do projects and activities and events in your community to really destigmatize mental health to make it more relatable to make it more accessible, to make it more just, yeah, just relatable and accessible, so we focus on that as well. So that’s really how we got started. We’ve been started, we’ve been in existence since Covid actually. We were officially founded in, got everything worked out in 2020 but it started with this idea right before Covid and then we just really started to hit the ground running during Covid. We’re just putting everything together. [LATOYA] Awesome. Yeah, so it’s still pretty, it’s fresh, it’s new. It’s a great program that you described. So Nafis you are a mentee, as you mentioned in the program? [NAFIS] Yes. Yes, I am. [LATOYA] So what drew you, because what Avery sounded like, that’s amazing. So what drew you to The Counseling Brothers of Atlanta? [NAFIS] To be honest with you, I was, when I started, like 2019 is when I really contacted Avery. It was all due virtual, It was during the pandemic, so we had a lot of idle time and for me seeing a black male therapist, but a black brother that’s talking about mental health, I was intrigued by learning every black male therapist in the country, even though I knew it wasn’t a lot. So I reached out to Avery before, like, “I want to connect with you. I’m applying to a couple schools down there. I like what you doing.” It just started off as a conversation. I knew, me and Avery had a couple conversations online and everything during the pandemic, a lot of people were sharing this information, a lot of people were like, going through it during the pandemic, and I felt like, man, if I’m moving down to Atlanta, I need to build community. Once this Counseling Brothers of Atlanta was coming to fruition, I was like, I want to be a part of it. Like, I want to learn. I’m new in this space, I’m trying to get my feet wet, but I also want to get that mentorship, but just have a brother by my side, or brothers by my side to tell me like how this process goes. Like they’re licensed already, they’ve been through school, and what barriers that may be in front of me. So that’s how I went down. So I would say about around 2019 when I spoke to Avery initially and then I just, I kept in touch with him and to this point, it spoke into existence of being there at Georgia State. So now we connected [LATOYA] No, I think it’s awesome. And I love the fact that in this conversation we get two angles. So one of, I’ve been through it, there’s only 2% of us, and now I want to help pull others up, and then somebody else that says, hey, I’m in it I want this mentorship be because there’s so few of us, I want to stay connected. So it’s like twofold. You’re not only helping, which is what you said, black male therapists or people who have a, something in their heart to be a therapist, know that it is possible, but then you’re also helping the greater community, the black men out there that don’t see therapists or don’t know how to reach out for help. So this is like, you’re getting it from both angles, like you’re diving — [AVERY] Absolutely. [LATOYA] Yeah, that’s huge. So now, what does it look like? I understand the classroom part. I guess I understand it because we’ve been through school, but now how do you, how are you out there in a community letting these black males know that you’re here to help and you’re not here to hurt. You know what I mean? To make it a safe space for them to enter into? [AVERY] Yeah, absolutely. It’s such a great question. We are very intentional about our approach. One of the ways in which we destigmatize mental health for fellow black men specifically is through visibility. So we’re out in the community where we have monthly fellowships to where we will go to different places in Atlanta where there’s bowling this week, or top golf or someplace like that. So we show up as our authentic self. We’re not showing up in suits and ties, although most members can’t. But most of us, we look like the community that we serve. We dress like the community that we serve. So people will come up to us and we’ll have our Counseling Brothers shirt on and they’d be like what are you guys? Are you guys some sort of like fraternity? I’m like, no, not quite, but we’re all therapists. The response we always get is like, wait, really? Like all y’all? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We’re all mental health therapists. That creates a dialogue, an instant dialogue of, well, man I’ve been thinking about going to find a therapist. I don’t know where to look, or I don’t really know what to expect, and it just starts an instant dialogue. At that point we’re like, okay, we got them. We’re reaching them. So it starts with us just being visible, just going to places, and of course, like for our fellowship. Also we tried to create experiences and events that are centered around a black male experience. So for an example, we had a physical health Mental health event last summer at Piedmont Park. One thing about a black man is that they going to go to the gym. We going to go to the gym, we’re going to try to stay fit. So this was a great way of bringing in things that you’re already doing and showing you how it promotes mental wellness. So our mental health and physical health event in the part was a huge success. One of the events that we are looking to do this year well, two of them in particular, I actually got a proposal on the table for the members now to do a mental health barbershop edition, so, again, going into the community, going into the barbershop, this is where us as black men, this is our solid, this is where we hang out at. This is where we develop. We learn about manhood in the barbershop, so we’re taking mental health to the barbershop. We have a barbershop style conversation about mental health, barriers to mental health, how to seek support, how to let go of maladaptive coping strategies and find some healthy coping strategies. So that’s events, things like that. We also are considering doing, a proposing an event, a conference at Morris Brown College and doing a wellness retreat for black males. So that’s some of the things that we’re focusing on as well. Nafis, as he mentioned earlier, is he stepped into the role as our community engagement chair and so he’s bringing in like so much energy, so much, just so many ideas. So he got some things that he’s working on that I would love him to talk about if you’re able to now, Nafis. [NAFIS] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, it’s some things that we have in the works. I want to prematurely put it out until it’s official, but it’s some things that we are trying to like, pretty much build bridges between other black organizations that align with what we do and bring it to the forefront, because I think it’s so important that you do it with numbers, but with collective thought. I think it’s a sprinkle here and there, but I think we might have the largest group of black male therapists in the country, or probably in the world in general. So I think it’s something special, but it’s always an opportunity for partnership and just finding things that align with mental wellness particularly for black men and black women specifically. So there’s some things they be having at works, I’ll look forward to sharing as soon as we put it down on paper. I don’t want to share it too before, but yeah, that’s what we have on a placement coming up. [LATOYA] Either way, what I hear is that you all are intentional about finding yourself in spaces, like you said, like where, basically we hear like private practice, like get in front of your ideal client, but you’re getting in the spaces where you would see, hey, black males, especially like you said, the gym, the barbershop. I’m sure there’s many other places because we’re everywhere. But it’s the idea of, hey, when we show up, we show up in numbers and we show up vulnerable, we show up available and ready to have a conversation. [AVERY] Absolutely, absolutely. That’s the most important piece, is that they see us. There’s such power. I just think about like, when we’re out in spaces and so many people, whether black, white, old, male, female come up to us and they’re always inquiring about what we do. As a president, just being able to sit back and reflect on like, wow, we’re actually, we’re here and we’re doing the thing. Like, we are making an impact, was recently recipients of the Transformation Training Institute Trailblazer of the Year Award for the work that we’re doing. So it’s very powerful to sit back and reflect on just the impact that we’re making just by being in this space and being visible and being accessible to our community. [LATOYA] And then once you, I love the fact too, I don’t want to skirt over even being in the college campuses for the younger black males to know that it’s, you can’t get therapy. It’s Like, there’s no shame in it [AVERY] Absolutely. [BLUEPRINT] Providing great therapy day after day can be challenging, even for the best of us. At Blueprint, they believe that nothing should get in the way of you doing your best work, which is why they created a platform that provides therapists with an array of clinical tools, things like therapy, worksheets, intervention ideas, and digital assessments that are designed to help you and your clients stay connected and confident throughout the care journey. Even better Blueprint helps streamline your documentation so that you can spend less time on your notes and more times on things that matter. To learn more and request a free 30-day trial visit www.blueprint-health.com. [LATOYA SMITH] When people come in for services, do you provide them services under the nonprofit, do you filter them out to all the practices? Like how does, what does that look like? [AVERY] That’s exactly how it works. So normally we have a website that people can go to, which is thecbo.org, so thecbo.org, and there’s a directory. The directory is all of our members. They have their website on it. They have little blurs about what they practice, so individual seeking services can click directly on their website, it goes straight to their website, and they can book from there. Or sometimes what happens is they’ll just email us and we’ll pretty much just filter the emails based on what the client’s needs are, what their, if they want to use insurance or sell pay, so we filter through the different practices. [LATOYA] All right. That’s awesome. I was just about to ask that. Like, is it affordable? And then you have affordable packages too, like, I guess for people who may not have insurance or aren’t able, or? [AVERY] So we have resources. We work with other organizations as well to make sure that there’s access. So we’ve worked with there’s an organization called Whole Brother Mission that provides financial resources for black men seeking mental health support. So a lot of the providers that are within the directory are I guess contract providers with Whole Brother Mission. There’s other organizations such as Black Man Hill that provide free counseling for black men that are seeking services. So they can go to Black Man Hill and Black Man Hill will filter them through The Counseling Brothers to make sure they’re connected with a therapist. So there, we want to make sure that we provide options for people that may not have the insurance or the financial means to pay out of pocket, so, we collaborate with other organizations to make sure that the funding is there. [LATOYA] I can’t see why a graduate student, a black male graduate student wouldn’t want to be a part of this. [AVERY] Like, I don’t know either. [LATOYA] I can’t see why, because that’s, this is great mentorship, great opportunity and you’re learning for somebody who looks like you, who’s going, who’s doing what you desire to do. [AVERY] Absolutely, absolutely. With that, with that mentorship thing, one of the things that we realized is that paying for college isn’t cheap, and getting through your master’s program. So what we’re working on is being able to provide scholarships for our mentees that are in our program to help offset the cost of their tuition. So with us being relatively new we’re still working on finding grant funding and fundraising in order for us to have that within our budget to be able to provide scholarships for black males that are in master’s level programs. So it’s a great opportunity for them to to eliminate that barrier of worrying of how am I going to pay for school? And I think I, that was a barrier for me. That was a worry for me. Nafis, I’m not sure if it has been the same for you. [NAFIS] Yeah. For me, so I actually got a graduate research assistant position on campus tuition with tuition waiver and things of that nature. That’s some of the things that they don’t really tell you about on college campuses where you can get a tuition waiver for school. But the only thing that when you get that is that now you don’t have time for really to get a job. So you got to pay your bills and you might get a monthly stipend, but that’s not going support you all the way through college. So you got to get in where you fit in and find a job surrounded around that, but not burning yourself out because you are becoming a healer in this space, and you got to deal with all the things that comes in in the place with college. So I’m glad for me, being a mentee of this program, I get this, I get to bounce ideas, I get to get real life information about private practice. For me, it’s, you get the whole gamut in all different perspectives, be because sometimes even though you black, you got different experiences. [AVERY] Yeah, and that’s going to be my next question too, so you all come together, sorry, go ahead. [NAFIS] No, I just think, I said it’s all different experiences and we all come together to share those things. So it’s always good to have that mentorship [LATOYA] Would everybody coming together with their own practice, that was going to be my next question too, you’ll help somebody else with the structure of building and putting it together. So you all do your own consulting. Is it The Counseling Brothers of Atlanta do the consulting or their individual practice owners that help with consulting, be because now if you help a black male get there and now it’s like, hey, let me help you set the foundation to build your own. [AVERY] Yeah, absolutely. So it’s following under The Counseling Brothers. So It’s such a cool experience be because you have members that have done things in different ways. So the mentee coming in get to see different points and take from those different styles because the way that I’ve created my practice may not be the same way that Dr. Sullivan has created his. But you’re getting unique experience and unique perspectives from different people to where you can say, okay, well I don’t necessarily have to do it this way, I can do it this way, I can put this or spin to it. So oftentimes we have these conversations during our monthly meetings to where we sit down as a group and we talk about maybe challenges that we are experiencing within our own practice and how do we navigate those challenges? How do we, what structures can we put in place to address those unique challenges within our practice? Our mentees are taking part of it, like we invite them into the conversation to get ideas from them. We want them to be a part of that think tank to critically think about, okay, how do we do these things? So it’s a very unique perspective to where we’re learning from each other. I’m learning, every time I’m in the room with the president or one of the members I am learning. Because members bring in different specialties. We have one member who specialties in building, billing and coding, so he’s a master biller. So he hosts a class and have members come and so you can learn about the latest in the codes that have come out, how to build, how to not leave money on the table. You have members such as myself that will teach people how to turn their practice or to how to turn, whatever their expertise is into a continuing education course to where they can now, all right, you can have people pay to come to your course. So that’s one of the things that I’m really good at. I’m good at like putting the package together, putting the template together, the proposal together for it to become a continuing education. So we have various different specialties that are coming in, we’re just bouncing ideas off each other. Research, I like research. Hey, what are you interested in? Let’s research. I like presenting, Nafis will tell you. We’ve submitted for conferences to present together. I want to give him that experience to learn how to present on different levels, regional level, state level, national level, international. So we have members that are in different spaces that we all come together It’s like, all right, what you got going on? What you got going? All right, cool. Let’s take this idea. Oh, I need to, oh, this is how you advocate for yourself with insurance company to get an increase in your, in a pay scale. Oh, here’s a template. There you go. So it is a free exchange of information, which is what we like. It brings us back to those days when we, as black people did that on a regular basis when we think about like Black Wall Street. We’re all own community where we’re sharing resources in order to better each other and to better our family dynamic and to ultimately better the community. Yeah. [LATOYA] Yeah. I love it. I love it. My thought was, so is this the first that, are you guys the first doing this? Like are there other cities that do the same? [AVERY] The first and only [LATOYA] I was like, I haven’t heard of this before. [AVERY] We’re the first and only. We’ve, yeah, we’ve had so many different people, clinicians in different states that have reached out to us to get a Counseling Brother in their city. So that is actively in the works of, before we did that, we wanted to make sure that our foundation was solid first. We wanted to make sure that we have a really solid, tight foundation before we expand to different cities. So as president, I have very, very large, I have a very, very large vision that I’m trying to to materialize doing my tenure as president. One of them is to create a national and then create regions of The Counseling Brothers and then hopefully we’ll have conferences, regional conferences, state conferences, national conferences similar to what a lot of us do. A lot of us are in fraternities so similar to like the structures of like the fraternities. [LATOYA] Yeah. No, I love that. That’s why I’m like, I haven’t heard of it, but I know somebody reaching out to talk about it across the cities. Because what you’re doing is absolutely needed in each area, inner city or urban areas, period, or any area because, like you said, 2% now, listen, sometimes you got to search hard to find a black male therapist. And it shouldn’t be that hard, but sometimes you got the search. But if we had The Counseling Brothers in our area, or in our state — [AVERY] You know exactly where to go. [LATOYA] Exactly. Before we wrap up, like, I think another interesting part, it seems like a whole lot of amazing teamwork. I don’t hear any like ego coming up. How do you create that teamwork? [AVERY] Yeah. I think it is always stressing what our mission is. That’s one thing that I always do as a president, is to emphasize our mission and to understand that we can’t do this alone. It’s going to require all of us to come in this process with humility, with grace, with the idea of we are better together. So we learn, we check our egos at the door. Of course, it’s natural that you’re in a space full of men to where that could come up but it’s easily addressed and there’s just so much respect. I think that’s one of the main things that allowed that ego to not be as a driving force, is that we all respect the heck out of each other. There is so much love in a room. When we have our meetings. We always start our meetings off with check-ins. Like, yoh, how you doing? How you doing? Like, not this watered down how you doing, lust like hoping that somebody say, I’m good, but it’s a genuine, like, yoh, how you doing? Let’s check in. What’s going on? All right, do we need to tap in outside of this? It’s that real love and that real brotherhood is what we want to create and that pretty much just takes that ego out and it makes sense, just a very cohesive group of group of men. [LATOYA] Yeah. I think It seems like everything that often pushes a male away from saying, hey, I need help. You guys are the opposite and there, but like, arms wide open. [AVERY] Absolutely. [LATOYA] And showing up in spaces arms wide open. I think that’s beautiful. I envision it, it’s beautiful. [AVERY] Yeah, absolutely. Figuratively and literally it’s like, look, we hug over here. We embrace each other. When we see each other it’s always, it’s always love in the air and just genuine, just connection and just admiration for each other. [LATOYA] So tell the listeners, anybody who’s listening in, how they can get in touch with you if they’re in Atlanta, if they want to be a part of The Counseling Brothers, or they want to be a mentee or people in other cities that are like, please, I want to bring this over here where I’m at. [AVERY] Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So you can find it, our website is a great place to start. Again, our website is www.thecboa.org. That website gives you everything you need to know about us, from our mentorship program to becoming a member. You can click the link. It tells you what the membership package is, what you get for becoming a member. You can fill out an application there. If you’re seeking therapy, you can look at the directory and select the provider that’s based on what your needs are. We have events that are posted on our website, so you can stay abreast of any type of events that we have coming up, or events that we may have done in the past. If you want to donate which we’re always accepting donation, we are a 501 organization. We’re tax deductible. So if you want to make a donation, I encourage you to. You can do so on the website. Also on our website, there’s a link to our to social media. We are on Instagram at The CBO ATL on Instagram, so T H E C B O A T L on Instagram. So you can find us there as well. [LATOYA] Awesome. All right, any lasting words from the both of you about well, Avery from you about being a practice owner, reaching back to help and from you being a mentee and looking for mentors that can help you along the way? Any lasting words you would leave for those that are in your position right now? [AVERY] Absolutely. Look, mentorship is essential. I got to where I am be because of my mentor. I want to shout him out. Dr. Ryan Day a good, just good, good, good brother. When I got started, when I wanted to get started, he said, come to my office and he literally gave me the game plan. Like, look, this is what I do at my practice. You can switch it up. Here’s some forms, you can switch it up, put your stuff on there. You can tailor it to what, tailor it to you. So mentorship is essential. If you want to get in this business, never enter into anything ill advised. Always seek mentorship, always seek guidance. There are people that have done this, have made mistakes that can prevent you from making those same mistakes. So always seek guidance. Always seek guidance. [LATOYA] Nafis? [NAFIS] Yeah, for me, I would say don’t be afraid to not only get mentorship, but if you are a mentee or a person that’s thinking about getting into this space, reach out. I think that’s the biggest thing. I think we create enough space, or I think it’s almost, it’s always an opportunity to create more space, but there’s not that many of us. And I think we want to make psychology and seeking therapy look cool, like it doesn’t look like sitting on the couch or things like that. When I call Avery and then when they say, when he talking about check-ins, I’m saying like, Avery, I’m a six out of 10 professionally. I’m a six out of 10 personally. Then we process that. So it’s not only this program is just not just to just get mentorship, but it’s really to hone in on yourself and find out who you are as a person and be okay with that and come as you are. So I would say don’t be afraid to reach out to us. We got some big things coming like I said, I’m enjoying the process because it’s hands on when it’s that, it’s baby, you can see all the progress that has been going through. So I would say that to the listeners that’s out there. But appreciate you. [LATOYA] Awesome, awesome. Thank you both so much for being on the podcast and talking about such an amazing, beautiful program. I know you’ve given our listeners a lot to think about so it’s not a solo act that we can build team to build greater community, build greater therapists and to help break this stigma. So I thank you both so much for being my guests today. [AVERY] Thank you so much for having us. [NAFIS] Thank you so much. I appreciate it. [LATOYA Thank you so much to Blueprint for sponsoring this episode. If you love this podcast, please be sure to rate Review. This podcast is designed to provide accurate Authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.