[JOE SANOK] This is the Practice of the Practice Podcast with Joe Sanok, Session number 813. I am Joe Sanok, your host, and welcome to the Practice of the Practice Podcast. I’m so glad that you’re here today, that you’re listening in, that today’s episode sounds interesting to you. We’re going to cover a lot of ground today, and I’m really excited about it because sometimes we interview therapists, sometimes we interview people that support therapists, sometimes we interview coaches. I always just like to hear how people think through the work they do, because there’s a lot of ways that we can think through our work. I joined Simon Sinek’s team as a speaker, I don’t know, three or four months ago and just giving back to that, starting with why, of why we do what we do and thinking through what is at the core? Then our product, or our business, or our coaching or our counseling comes out of that. That’s why I’m so excited to hang out with Harry Sherwood. Harry is a presence and holistic life coach. Along with Harry’s journey. He’s become a Certified HeartMath® Resilience Trainer, Certified Circling Facilitator, Certified Mindful Health and Wellness Coach, and was trained in compassionate inquiry, meditation and mindfulness. Harry’s practiced thousands of hours of meditation and received a religious studies degree from University of Michigan. The culmination of these experiences led Harry to found Consciously where he and Melanie guide people into fulfillment, connection, and deep presence in mind, body and spirit. Harry, welcome to the Practice of Practice Podcast. [HARRY SHERWOOD] Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here. [JOE] Yes. Sometimes I think the name Practice of the Practice, if I ever wanted to just dive into a meditation type podcasting, it wouldn’t be a hard jump with the name [HARRY] it’s funny, when I initially saw it, I actually thought of it as a meditation type of podcast, and then when I looked deeper into it was something slightly different, which I also loved and so yes, that wordplay also got me. [JOE] I mean, I think that it’s interesting to just see how when I initially started it, my journey did not include meditation or any, I mean, I had some spiritual practices, but that, to just see how at this point, it’s funny how things aligned without me trying in a lot of those areas. So I’m really excited to hear some of your story and the things that you teach today and to have you on the show. Let’s just start with University of Michigan Religious Studies. I did a comparative religion degree over at Western Michigan, and I did that with psychology for my undergrad. How, like, why do that at U of M and how did that start your career off? [HARRY] So U of M has been in the family. My mom went there, my uncle went there, my grandpa went there so it was just a place that I knew that I wanted to end up as well. I was actually living in an ashram with monks and yogis at the time when I applied to go to Michigan and one of the people also living there used to be a professor at Michigan. So it was just meant to be, it was perfect. They actually didn’t have a religious studies degree so what I wound up doing is I applied to the, I created my own curriculum, I applied it to the board of LSNA and they okayed it. So my religious studies degree is a little bit different than most people’s. It’s not necessarily comparative religion, it’s not necessarily, it was pretty much anything that fell within the category. So I studied thing like paranormal psychology. I wound up going to Ghana and Indonesia, both studying their culture and their spirituality, that counted towards my major philosophy and various things. It was really eclectic and I had a great time doing it. [JOE] Oh my gosh, we would’ve been like such interesting college friends. After I finished my undergraduate, I went to Nepal for a while in Thailand and went down to Haiti and studied with a voodoo priest for a while. Just really wanted to learn how other people thought about religion and spirituality and it just was, I mean, it sounds like we were cut from the same cloth in a lot of ways. [HARRY] Yes, I’m immediately fascinated with what you’re talking about and want to pick your brain on it. So we definitely would’ve known — [JOE] Sometimes this becomes more conversational than interviewee so like, what questions do you have? [HARRY] I’m always fascinated by not just what other cultures have to say in their way of life, but what is the spark within us that drives us to want to learn about those? From all the different things that I’ve studied in different cultures, I’ve sat with either in ceremony or lived with them for a while, I’ve always noticed that there’s people there that want to be there and that embrace their own culture and then just like in our culture, there’s people who don’t really want to be there. They were born into it and that’s just the way things were. So my curiosity is where your curiosity came from to actually go and seek those things out. [JOE] Yes, yes. Let me answer that but then I think it’s interesting you say that there’s people that want to be there and people that don’t want to be there. It’s so funny because I remember I was staying at this monastery in Nepal and it had one of the best views of Mount Everest. It was right after we had come off Gochi Ri, and it was like a day or two hike and the guy that ran the backpacking hostel right next to this thing, he was an Nepali guy, but you could tell it was just like, he had a picture of the Dalai Lama up and lit the candles, but he was drinking with everyone else. It was just like, he never went in the monastery. It was the same as my grandpa who had a picture of the pope up and he lit some candles, but he just like didn’t care. It was, I was like, wait. In Christianity there’s often this like lukewarm Christian, like, you aren’t really passionate about it. It was like, oh, here’s like a lukewarm Buddhis. He didn’t really seem to care about Buddhism as much as just serving people well, which can be a Buddhist philosophy as well. But it had never occurred to me until I was 22 in Nepal that, oh, other religions aren’t always fascinated with themselves like we are. So I’m glad you brought that up. For me, I think that curiosity came from, like, I was raised Catholic, but my dad was Catholic and my mom was Protestant, but I think she was like Presbyterian but didn’t really care about it. So it was a mixed family and that was a big deal in the Catholic, like Polish Catholic tradition to marry a Protestant. So I always had one foot in, one foot out and like a skepticism that didn’t fully buy into how I was raised because my parents didn’t really buy in. So I think that it really developed from that and just seeing how different people believed and thought and trying to find a structure that I thought was like the structure, but then realized every culture’s really trying to articulate something that really can’t be articulated. [HARRY] Yes, I like that. I like that a lot. [JOE] So how did you get into coaching and doing this as a job or as like a role or was it a side gig? I feel like a lot of people have these interests, but it never turns into anything unless you become like a pastor or become a monk or something that’s within a lineage. How did things form for you to go from just being a student that’s out there doing it maybe for your own personal development or with a community to this becoming something you do for people or help people with? [HARRY] I think it’s always paralleled my personal development, my own personal path from even before my time in the ashram to through that, through the degree back in the ashram back out into the world and doing this professionally on the side at first, then going all in. It was always something I was passionate about for myself. It was always something that lit me on fire that helped me either through my growth, my healing, my own integration whatever it might have been at the time. So I would just be doubling down through then learning to support others in that same space and that passion has carried me. There have been times where it’s shown up in ways where I’ve felt like I’m in the ballpark here. I know I want to be doing something similar to this, but I’m not quite exactly where I want to be. An example of that is before I became a life coach or a mindfulness coach, I was a sports performance coach. That was great for when, that was great for, because it was, I was passionate about it at the time, but as time went on, that wasn’t quite my passion as much, but it played into how I coach now. It informed how I work with people now so it was very helpful and amazing. But yes, it’s really been following my own passion and staying as close to what drives me as possible professionally. Fortunately, it’s worked out and it’s been a great journey. [JOE] I mean I really resonate with that because my uncoupling over the last year and a half and just the divorce being brutal and getting primary custody of my kids and I talked about that earlier in the summer of 2022, during the How I got Through It Series, just was so painful. So I had this life jacket of Daoism that I really dove into and it was purely personal at that point. But then even this summer being at Slow Down School and the people that came, it was so interesting to see how a lot of these Daoist principals were so helpful in regards to the business planning we were doing, in regards to just the life planning and thinking about what do we actually want out of life. The people that came to a Slow Down School this summer were like the perfect mix of people that we needed each other’s like painful stories. There was so much pain that had happened over the last couple years in that group, but we were there for a business retreat, but it couldn’t help but come out as we were talking about, oh, how do you think through this and how do you evaluate this, that spiritual side really infiltrated the way that I was doing some of my business coaching. Now how did you start to transition from doing sports coaching to then more of the life coaching? [HARRY] It wound up showing up in a few different ways. In the sports performance coaching there was definitely a psychological aspect to it. Of course, with my religious studies background and my time with the monks, there was always a spiritual aspect of it for me. So that just naturally started to come into how I worked with specific people. Then over time that just became the majority of how I was working with people and then I wound up stepping away, eventually stepping away from the gym and just working with people on their internal game on, hey, what is it that you are looking to do? What do you want? How do we get you there? Then incorporating specific practices like meditation and mindfulness, like the heart math techniques and just getting more certifications along the way that paralleled that, that helped that focus, that helped people I was working with. So it was, it seemed seamless, but it also just took time. During all of that into what you’re saying about the slowdown, it’s, I think one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned along the way is to play the long game. Not to just be here to try to impact millions today, but how can I be highly impactful to the one person I’m with and also recognize that over a career of 30, 40, 50 years, that that is going to look so many different ways and I’m going to learn so much and to let that unfold in the way that is really deeply authentic to me. So it just naturally did that and at times I was in huge rushes and at times I did slow down and now I’ve found much more of a balance with those two. [JOE] Now I feel like as a life coach or presence coach, or however people frame it when they’re talking to you, there’s a few challenges to get someone to sign up or to buy. Like for one, I think a lot of times religious or spiritual teachings, people think, well, I’m supposed to just get this for free, why aren’t you doing this for free out of the goodness of your heart? Then also I think coaching still has a stigma because there’s not necessarily a license and there’s people that just say, I’m a coach, and they may be good, they may be bad, they may be harmful, they may be helpful. Even if you have a bunch of certifications like it feels like people sometimes are like, I don’t know if I want to work with a coach. For you, how did you, or how do you position yourself or how do you think about it or how do you talk with people about those two maybe barriers to working with you? [HARRY] Those are great points and also valid. I’ve definitely met with several coaches who either professionally or at a similar training that I would not have worked with and honestly at the early years I wouldn’t have worked with me either. But there’s a level of getting started and learning what you don’t know and continuing the certifications and really deepening into learning how to be with someone and to help them in the way that they need, how to meet them where they are. So really, my approach to clients is a lot happens in the consultation. A lot happens in the half hour that we get together and I just immediately say, hey look, this is a chance for you to feel me out. This is a chance for me to feel you out. Do we vibe together? Does it seem like we can do some good work together? Does it seem like what I do is even going to be helpful to you and just being really honest. There have been people where I really wanted to help them, but I just wasn’t the right fit for them and there were people that really wanted me to be the right fit for them, but I just wasn’t either. So it’s just being honest about is this a good match? Is coaching even the thing that they need? Maybe someone’s coming to me with high levels of anxiety and I can help with that through the heart math and the mindfulness and meditation but really they need a therapist first and they need a psychotherapy or some sort of other approach to help them actually be open to more mindfulness practices and then eventually more coaching practices. So what is the person’s need at the beginning? Am I a good fit for them? A lot of the times my clients come from referrals, they come from people who have already worked with me and that is a huge vote of confidence because it’s like, oh no, I’ve been in sessions with Harry, or I’ve been in a program with Harry over six months or a year and I have a vote of confidence because it impacted me in a positive way. I don’t think there is actually any better way of getting someone else in the room than that. But of course that’s case by case. And I want to double down on what you said though. There’s definitely, whether it’s coaches and it’s not licensed, or it is licensed counselors or therapists or psychiatrists, there are good ones out there. Then there are ones who even with years and years of training still aren’t the best or the best fit for us. So it’s really learning what does our puzzle piece look like and where do we fit in with other people? [HEARD] It’s never too early to start thinking about tax season. Heard is the financial back office built specifically for therapists in private practice. They combine smart software with real humans to help you manage your bookkeeping, taxes and payroll. Regardless of whether you’re a seasoned clinician or are in the first year of private practice, Heard will identify areas of growth and streamline best financial practices for your business. When you sign up with Heard, you’ll connect your bank accounts so your transactions will automatically be pulled in and categorized. My favorite thing about Heard is their allocation guide, what helps you decide how much to pay yourself each month and how much to set aside for taxes. You’ll also receive financial insights such as profit and loss statements and personalized monthly reports. You can say goodbye to pouring over spreadsheets and guessing your tax deductions or quarterly payments. Focus on your clients and Heard will take care of the rest. Heard always has transparent pricing with no hidden fees. Sign up for a free 15-minute consult call today at joinheard.com/partners/joe. Again, that’s joinheard, like I heard it, not like a herd of cattle, joinheard.com/partners/joe. [JOE SANOK] Now, when you think about presence, I mean we have primarily therapists and coaches listening to this show, where do most therapists and coaches miss the mark when it comes to presence, how we think about it? Yes, I’ll just leave it at that. [HARRY] That’s a good question. I would say, I’m very much a case by case person. I’m not a big generalizer, but since we are talking to a larger population. I run something called the Presence Program. It’s a year-long program where we dive into different aspects of presence and we really learn to embody it through something called Circling, which is a meditative intergroup dialogue where we really just come into our bodies, learn to be with, hey, what is here? What is here when I’m by myself? What is here when I’m with others? What is here when there is chaos? What is here when there is order and learning to operate in a way that is present, that is connected, that is even intimate. From that place can I then carry that with me outside of that practice zone into my daily life, into my time with clients? So one of the groups that I have is for therapists, for counselors, for coaches. It’s quite amazing. It’s quite amazing to see each of them show up every time and continue to deepen their ability to be present. In my experience, in my opinion, my time with clients, whether it is a therapist, counselor or coach, or just a layperson, as they say in the ashram, you can really tell when someone is deeply present with you and you can tell when they are there trusting in wholeness, trusting in the moment to unfold in a way that will be helpful, that will be healing. Then there’s also a knowing when someone’s there, maybe with an agenda, maybe with a sense that they perceive me as broken somehow. And there’s different approaches to healing and to growth. But I very much come from the, I believe everyone’s whole and if we meet them in that way, in presence in deep, mindful, compassionate presence, then they actually learn to assimilate that themselves. So I’ve definitely come across a lot of coaches and therapists who are really clinically and academically brilliant, but they’re very simple presence with me or with their clients is a bit chaotic. It’s a bit not there. They’re more interested in taking notes or they’re more interested in trying to lead their client to some destination than they are just meeting their client in the moment. If that lands where it lands, where they want it to land, great and if it doesn’t, that’s also okay. But again, there’s different approaches to this, so that may or may not be helpful to some people. [JOE] Yes, I think it’s tough sometimes when you have say all this clinical training around a certain modality, say couples work and you know okay, we really should make sure people learn or understand these particular concepts and to really figure out for yourself, when are you really like doing psychoeducation where you’re teaching someone? Here are some skills that are important for you as say a couple versus allowing that presence to be there because that’s two very different approaches to doing therapy or doing coaching. So when you think about really being present for people that you’re working with, I think that could sometimes feel like a gamble. Like, oh shoot, I have to add all these extra things in to give them value rather than just coming and being present with them. They could be present with themselves. What do you think is the value in a counselor or a coach just really showing up and being present with their, with their clients? [HARRY] Love this question because that is, I think that is at least a fear that personally, I’ve gone through and have seen a lot of other people being trained into presence that they do also go through like, how is this valuable? What is this adding? If I don’t educate them in some way, if I don’t add my years of knowledge to them in some way, then why are they paying me? What I’m about to say, I think Gabo Monte, Dr. Gabo Monte says really well, and this came from compassionate inquiry when I was in that training there, a lot of people, like when we go to the base needs of humans, safety, love, belonging, connection, those things, when we form an insecure attachment style, that internal trauma that gets captured in there is often not just because of the traumatic external experience, it’s because there isn’t a safe space to process that experience in the moment or following the experience. That usually has to do with the people that were around. Do our caregivers, can our caregivers be present with us when we’re two, when we’re five, when we’re 10, when we’re 15, whatever it is, our peers, our teachers, in a way that allows for us to naturally be ourselves in a safe and healthy manner? If we do, then often that trauma can be released because it can be expressed and it can be met, and it doesn’t sacrifice the safety, the love, the belonging connection. But if it is expressed, or if it is repressed in a way where those things are potentially going to be sacrificed, then it’s unhealthy and it stays inside of us. So fast forward to being present with our clients. If I can truly meet my client as they are, and they learn that it’s safe to do that, and that obviously is something that’s case by case, but if it does become safe, then that trust is built, that report is built, then when they express and I meet that part of themselves, even if it’s very dark or very beautiful and light, then that trauma actually gets worked out. Of course, that’s more of the trauma side of things, but any way that they show up, if I can truly be with it in a deep way, a lot of things can get cleared, can get integrated, can be healed, there can be growth, there can be insight, and then there can be a deeper trust in themselves as well that, hey, it is safe for me to be me. Obviously, there’s a big conversation around authenticity these days and it teaches them what their authenticity looks like as well. So really it’s about meeting someone where they are as they are trusting that there’s a deep wisdom in that and learning to be with whatever shows up and then not only being a mirror for that, but meeting them and walking with them down that. That embodiment of presence, that way of being. To me, it’s a teach-through action, teach-through doing, not through speaking. Can there be teaching through speaking? Of course. I do that as well during sessions, but much more of it is like, hey, this is just how I am and I’m going to meet you how you are. [JOE] Yes. I mean, for people that are getting started or want to do more learning around presence what’s the secret to being more present? [HARRY] The way I usually talk about it is just, are you in the room? It’s the question I ask everyone, are you in the room right now? I mean that very literally, just looking around and just seeing what else is in the room with you, and how many times have you been in this same room, and how many times have you looked at that same keyboard or that same wall, or that same desk, and how often do you actually just not even see it anymore? Just coming into the room, taking at least a minute or two before you come into your time with your clients or with whoever, even just with yourself to come into the room to land, essentially what that is that’s bringing us back into our lives. It’s bringing our attention into the world that we live in and we’re not thinking about tomorrow. We’re not thinking about yesterday. We’re not fantasizing about some other life. We’re not thinking about how we’re going to approach X, Y, or Z. We’re just being here, we’re just meeting life as it is in the moment and then if we tune into our bodies, once I’m in the room, what’s happening in my body? Oh, I notice this sensation. I have this tension in my gut. I feel my shoulders are rounded. What emotions are here? Oh, in my gut, when I’m in that tension, there’s anxiety. Okay, what are my thoughts saying about this? Oh, well, it has to do with this client that I don’t like working with. Or it has to do with my family member who just won’t meet me or won’t respect my boundaries or whatever it has to do with. Once I gather what’s actually here with me, if I can just stay with it in a loving, compassionate, and accepting way, I’m doing the same thing for myself that I just talked about doing for clients. I’m meeting them and meeting myself as I am, completely and trusting that there’s wholeness here and I can deepen my presence through just being in the room, just being with myself. That presence deepens my connection, deepens my intimacy with life, and I like to say life with a capital L. Like I really deepen into the life force of this moment, which is its own conversation and very powerful. [JOE] Now if on a societal level or a humanity level, more people focused on presence and awareness, how do you think that would shift the world? [HARRY] Oh, I could go on such a rabbit hole there. I’m trying to think of a way to not go on a deep rabbit hole. [JOE] I mean, it’s a pretty big question. I mean, we’re only talking all of humanity in the world. [HARRY] Yes, just only all of humanity and so on and so forth. I would say a quick answer to that would be simply we can learn to be with people that are like us and are not like us through presence and all the polarizing lack of actual dialogue and conversation that’s happening these days. If I can truly be present to my internal response, my defense mechanisms, my shadow, my light, all that stuff as I’m in an interaction with anyone, and I can meet that with presence, love, acceptance, safety, all that stuff, and then also meet them with that, there’s a harmonization that can happen. There’s a deepening of understanding that can happen. I believe that there’s a ton more to it, and that’s oversimplification just to say that, like that’s the key. But I think it’s a part of the answer to how do we find a higher order of coherence amongst us all? So I think being present and learning to be present with others, and especially others that we don’t necessarily vibe with can be a big step forward for us all. [JOE] Harry, if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? [HARRY] I think, I love presence if that hasn’t come across and to just maybe take the practice I just talked about with you a little bit and just come into the room before you’re spending time with any of your clients and notice if you can really stay in the room during your time with them or if you do often wander into thought about, okay, what’s the next question I’m going to ask or how is this going to end. Notice how often you might come out of the present moment and see if it can serve you to see if you can play with staying in the moment with them and just notice how energetically they respond to that. It might add to how you spend time with people, spend time with both your clients, yourself, family, friends, so on and so forth I think. I’ve seen it be very helpful for a lot of people in the helping field. [JOE] Harry, if people want to follow your work, if they want to work with you, learn more about what you’re doing, where should we send them? [HARRY] My website’s the best place for that, consciously.org and I also have some media as well, social media, Instagram or Facebook at Consciously Org. Yes, if anyone wants to hop in, I’m very big just on the one-on-one stuff, so if anyone wants to hop in and do a session, full session, not just a 30-minute consult, but a full session, if they type in, hearing me on this podcast and where it says, where did you learn about us from this podcast, you can get a free one-hour session. We’ll do it with anyone from counselor, coach to layperson. I just love getting one-on-one time with people and really being of service if I can. [JOE] Wow, that’s really generous. Thank you so much, Harry, for being on the Practice of the Practice Podcast. [HARRY] Thank you for having me. It was great. [JOE] I really love doing sessions like this or shows like this where we dig into maybe more therapeutic mindsets or clinical mindsets or just personal things that help us shape who we are to just be able to just realize that our businesses are going to be a manifestation of the work that we’re doing inside of ourselves. So to just connect here and be able to dig in, it’s so fun and interesting to be able to do. Also on the other side of things bookkeeping can be a pain in the butt. as a therapist, the last thing you probably want to do is bookkeeping. The financial back office can be a big pain in the butt. That’s why we’ve partnered with Heard. It’s amazing. We actually just had a webinar yesterday, we had over a hundred people in there and they were just walking through just the basics of taxes and money and maximizing all of that stuff to make sure you’re doing it right. My first couple years I would, I had a business account and I would just have receipts in a drawer and then at the end of the year I would sort them out. You can say goodbye to pouring over spreadsheets and guessing on your tax deductions or quarterly payments, any of that stuff. You can just focus on your clients and Heard’s going to take care of the rest. Plans begin at $149 per month for solo practices and can easily be tailored to fit your specific needs. If you want a free 15-minute consult, head it over to joinheard.com. That’s heard, like I heard that from Joe, not like a herd of elk. So joinheard.com for your free-15 minute consult today. Thanks so much for letting us into your ears and into your brain. Have an amazing day. Talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silence is Sexy for your intro music. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.