Andrew Burdette 00:00:00  The growing Group practice podcast is part of the practice of the Practice Network, a network of podcasts to help you grow, manage and promote your business and yourself. To hear the other podcasts like The Practice of the Practice Podcast, go to practice at the practice.com backslash network. You're listening to the grow a Group Practice podcast, a podcast focused on helping people start, grow, and scale a group practice. Each week you'll hear topics that are relevant to group practice owners. I'm Andrew Burdette, a practice owner, and I love to hear from people, their stories, and real life experiences. Let's get started. Hello and thanks again for tuning in to the grow a Group practice podcast. Today I am here with Stephanie Farmer, who's the owner of Anchored Counseling Services, PLLC. so welcome to the show. like always, I like to invite people to give a little backstory and fill in a little more details about who they are and how they got here. So. What's your. How'd you end up doing what you do now as a group leader and focusing on perinatal?

Stephanie Farmer 00:01:11  Yeah.

Stephanie Farmer 00:01:12  Thanks so much for having me. So my journey into the counseling field wasn't traditional. I went to undergrad at Meredith College, so I'm a native North Carolinian, and majored in business with a concentration in marketing. So, when I graduated from college, I actually headed to Nashville and worked in the music business for a little bit, and then pursued marketing and other avenues for about six years, before I decided to become a counselor. And, you know, through my own personal journey and life happening as it does to a lot of us when we least expect it. Sometimes you shift. And, I'd always loved being with people. I'd always loved working with people, helping people. So moving into the counseling space really felt like a natural fit for me. So, after spending six years in the business world, I went back to graduate school. I went to, Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem and got my master's in counseling and always knew that I wanted to be in private practice and had the hope that one day I'd have a group practice, but knew that I would have to take a lot of steps to get there first.

Stephanie Farmer 00:02:22  So, started my career working mainly with eating disorders, worked in the eating disorder field for about five and a half six years, worked at residential facilities, worked in private practice, and during Covid, the acuity level of eating disorders got really significant and became something that, almost led to burnout. And I will will very much own that. that's a real thing. I think enough people in our profession don't talk about, and it became a really significant challenge for me to say, okay, how can I be the best for myself and my clients? And at that time, I was also becoming a mom. Many of my clients were becoming moms, and many of my friends were becoming moms. And this was also right around the time when perinatal mental health became something that people were talking about. The Lynsey Clancy story had just broken. There were several other high profile perinatal mood and anxiety disorder cases that came out, and I was shifting as well. And one of the things that I noticed is a lot of my friends that were pregnant were saying, we can't find help, we can't find resources.

Stephanie Farmer 00:03:35  We're really, really struggling. And the few practices in town that do this work have six and eight month waitlists. And I feel really unstable and I feel really unsteady right now. And so I kept noticing all of these trends in this really significant need for perinatal care. And those were the clients that I also was really, really enjoying my work with because I was also a parent. And so it it made things very new for me very quickly. but I feel like it gave me this, this ability to really understand why moms feel so overwhelmed and why they need so much support, because that change was also happening in my life. And so in 2022, I made the decision to to step out of the eating disorder space and into the perinatal space. went through the postpartum support international trainings, which are wonderful. obtained my PMC certification through them and really completely and totally shifted the focus of my practice. I was a solo practitioner at the time. I had been a solo practitioner for five years up until that point and really spent that year just learning, training, cultivating relationships, shifting the the dynamic and the focus of my practice.

Stephanie Farmer 00:04:59  And, as I was doing that, I continued to notice the need was growing and growing and growing. And the calls did not stop coming. And it was at that point where I realized, this feels like the time when I can take that step into group practice ownership. I have clients to be able to sustain a group practice. I have consistent referrals. So in January of last year, I hired my first clinician. In March of last year, I hired my second clinician and actually have my third clinician who's going to be starting with us next week. So the expansion to the group practice was very slow and it was very intentional. but once we made that shift, it it very much took off, in a way that was was both exciting and and validating in that this felt like a need, and we were able to step in and are able to continue filling that need and providing space for these women to be seen and not have to sit on wait lists.

Andrew Burdette 00:06:05  That's really cool. I'll just also add, like if someone else that left the entertainment world, like there's probably some interesting stories about how that didn't work out well as well.

Andrew Burdette 00:06:15  I mean, I did. I'm for people that have listened to me or talk to me or work with me like I'm a tech guy because I used to do tech stuff, but yeah, similar just it just kind of felt flat and empty and I wanted something a little more fulfilling, like as a person and felt more uplifting than just, hey, let's promote another entertainer or whatever it is, and it's fine for a while, but it as a, as an adult adult, like, it was nice to to shift out of something or shift out of that into something more interesting. and it's cool to, as someone else, that I deliberately grew my group slowly and this year have added three people and have a fourth early on. AD. I'm just trying to navigate how to do that with another new hire that started literally the weekend the hurricane rolled through here. So, you know, just trying to do that, pacing for marketing and other things like that and referral networks and make sure they have enough support to bring them in and make sure that people that have already come in are supported, too.

Andrew Burdette 00:07:07  So I appreciate the the deliberate intentionality of taking things slow and making sure it's the right fit. that definitely shows up. I think I, I hear from a number of group owners that have maybe hired faster than they've really been able to vet people, and so some of the intentionality in that slow pace thing is worth it, because you really do end up with the right people at the right time rather than, hey, you seem like you could be a fit and and it maybe doesn't work out.

Stephanie Farmer 00:07:36  Yes. And I will definitely echo that. You know, for me, culture and fit and consistency is really important. And so for me, it's more important to me that I find the right fit than how quickly I empty my waitlist. And so that's been something that we have been really intentional about, is making sure whoever's coming on board not only fits with the team that's in place, but also is a really good fit clinically and professionally for the type of clients that we serve. And I think for me, building it slowly and deliberately has taken a lot of that stress and that pressure away.

Stephanie Farmer 00:08:13  We all feel it and I still feel it at times, but at least in that area, it's taken away the stress and the pressure, because I know that the people that I have in the places that I have them are the right fit for us and for our clients.

Andrew Burdette 00:08:27  So with that, how has your background in business and marketing translated over and influenced your therapy practice?

Stephanie Farmer 00:08:36  It's translated a lot. I think at the beginning a lot of people, myself included, kind of wondered how those two parts of myself could coexist and go together, because in a lot of ways they're so polar opposite in terms of what your focus is and how you work and what your end goal is. You know, when I was working at a record label or an ad agency or a bank, you know, it was very profit driven. It was very numbers driven. And when you're a therapist, you know, it is all about your clients and those relationships and how they're feeling, and you're really pouring into real people's lives.

Stephanie Farmer 00:09:12  And so for me, it took me a little while to kind of reconcile those two parts of myself and let them coexist together in a way that worked. But I think for me, one of the biggest things about my business background that influences my work as a therapist and a group practice owner is the way that I approach marketing and the way that I approach kind of the business functions of the practice. I'm very fortunate in that the business functions of my practice don't intimidate me because I have worked in that space. I approach it from a place of, of Confidence of of tempered confidence, but of confidence. but really it comes into play when it comes to marketing the most. and for me, that's really basing my marketing strategy and my marketing plans on relationships. I am a people person to my core and, really using kind of what I know and understand about business to develop relationships with the right people that will then help not only fill my practice, but also help me know from a referral perspective who I can trust in the community to refer my clients to that are going to be non-judgmental, non-racist, non-biased.

Stephanie Farmer 00:10:30  They're going to be open, they're going to be accepting, and I'm going to feel safe sending my clients there to them. So for me, that that business background has really informed a lot of how I manage my marketing strategy when it comes to relationships.

Andrew Burdette 00:10:46  So you had mentioned Allison per year as we were talking ahead of this, and she's another Asheville local up here. I don't know if it's still, I remember watching a video when I was still in the next level, practicing as a client and in consumer through practice, the practice as a community member. She had a video talking about basically about ten different categories of marketing. And she's like, pick three, you know, because one that's about all the time you have energy for anyway. And then two, a lot of those are just not going to really resonate. And you mentioned networking is kind of your primary thing. That's usually my primary thing too. friends that have known me for years kind of describe me as that connector. And I'm usually that guy that's like, hey, I hear somebody talking about this, and I'm like, I know, I know a person that can do that and then get them in touch.

Andrew Burdette 00:11:31  And that's just it. Like, that's the end. And if I get thanked, great, I don't really care. But similar kind of thing with that. whereas like social media I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't want to go anywhere near it, right? Like, so her thing was trying to trying to emphasize the importance of picking the couple areas that feel like they are authentic to you as a person and then putting your energy into that. And so, outside of networking, how do you. Do you do anything else like, I mean, do you have the standard Psychology Today profiles? Do you do socials? What else do you do?

Stephanie Farmer 00:12:04  Yeah. So I would say kind of the second area of focus networking being one the second area of focus. And I think this is also where my marketing and my business background came into play, was I really heavily invested in my branding and my digital presence on my website, to the point that I hired a wonderful brand consultant. went through a six month branding process with her where she got to know me.

Stephanie Farmer 00:12:31  She learned about me as a person, me as a practice owner, our clients, kind of all of those different nuances and had her create, a custom brand for me. So I have some custom logos that are very personal to me. I grew up down near the coast and the beach, and the anchor means so much to me for a number of reasons. And, I love pink and she incorporated pink into my branding, and so she was able to do a really good job of, of putting together this very relatable, very uniform, very recognizable and identifiable brand that I think speaks really strongly about us and sets us apart. and in that branding process, she also created a website. And our website is definitely an area of focus. that's where a lot of our clients come from. We have a contact form on our website, and we get several submissions from that a week. and I feel like the way it was designed was very user friendly. It was very open. But what I also really love about our website, as you can really see my personality as, as a therapist and a group practice owner.

Stephanie Farmer 00:13:41  And I still carry a full caseload, so I'm still working with clients too. But the therapists that are on our team, you know, and everyone's bios written a little bit differently because it's who they are. And I like that. It really showcases our team and the differences between us, so that clients can really feel like they've connected with someone. And one of the biggest compliments I've ever received from a client, actually, is she said, you are exactly who I thought you would be. When I looked at your website and I looked at your Instagram, there is nothing inconsistent or different. And I think really investing in that authenticity, in branding and in that digital presence in our website and, writing a blog and being a real person and talking about making friends as a mom, or how do you how do you cope with stress as a mom? Let's debunk mom guilt and talk about it in the blog from a really open really hey, I'm a person to perspective has been really helpful for us.

Stephanie Farmer 00:14:42  So I would say that second bucket for us has really been branding and a strong website and a very genuine, very authentic presence so that our clients know when you call us, this is exactly what you're going to get. And that's exactly what they get. And then the third bucket we we do do social media. I'm also one that, ironically used to work in social media and doesn't love having to continue to do that. but we do social media, we will do Instagram, we'll post reels. a lot of times I try to make them very relatable, very funny, humorous content, you know, a lot of moms are up at 3 a.m. and they just want to see something that feels supportive and lighten their mood, and that is encouraging. So we'll do that. But, I'd say that's the third bucket. We don't do paid ads or anything like that. You know, our Instagram is very much an organic approach. So I would say those three areas for us are definitely networking and relationships, branding and digital presence and some social media.

Andrew Burdette 00:15:51  yeah, I have accounts to do socials for my business and we've talked about it. We just haven't. That's a lower priority than some of these other things. And then obviously like recently it's just been navigating like how do you get services restored after a hurricane kind of breaks everything. And so that's that's been its own focus in and of itself. And I'm super thankful to have an admin that's navigated some of these digital channels before to just be like, hey, here's a message landing page, whatever. so I want to spend a little ask a little bit about the branding process because, yeah, a lot of times, like hiring someone to walk you through a branding process is pricey. And for many therapists, that's out of out of reach. So if you're going to DIY your branding, any recommendations? And for listeners out there, like when I got started back five years ago with solo practice and came up with mindful counseling, at the time, part of it was thinking about the website because at the time, like how you how your SEO worked weighed more heavily on keywords and say your domain name as a double digit percentage of how that would rank.

Andrew Burdette 00:16:58  And now it's negligible. Like it kind of doesn't matter. so in hindsight, like I'm still happy with what I did, but I would probably pick something maybe a little more, a little less generic, because there's lots of mindful counseling therapy practices across the whole country. And there's a law firm, I think it's in Arizona. I got a fax by them for mistake. But, so just from a branding standpoint, it's like I'm good with it, but it's also, if I were to do it over again, I'd probably do something differently. And I'm not 100% sure what it would be differently. But yeah, I can for the listeners out there that are planning to do this themselves, just from the cost of a branding thing and listeners out there hiring a branding company to walk you through a 3 to 6 month process is probably going to run you like 6 to $10,000. Yeah, and they're worth it if you have a good company. But still 6 to $10,000. That's a lot, right? Yeah.

Stephanie Farmer 00:17:45  It's yes, it's it's definitely an investment. And it was something that I very strategically and intentionally planned for. It wasn't something that I said, I'm going to do this and did tomorrow. So it was certainly something that that was in my business plan as kind of a I would love to do this. So I'm going to spend the next two years getting myself into a position where I can, but for someone who's doing their own branding, because I had initially done that as well, when I launched my practice, I designed my own logo, did all the branding. would like to think I'm better at Photoshop than I am. so definitely have the the the DIY experience. I think for me, one of the things that I would encourage people to think about, is who are they? What speaks to them? Where did they grow up? Or their symbols or their words or their phrases or their things that they really resonate with, that they really connect to? Because to me, one of the most important things as a group practice owner and just as a as a person to me, one of my my top value is authenticity as a person.

Stephanie Farmer 00:18:52  And I want people coming to our practice to feel that it is authentic and real and we are genuine people. And so when you can incorporate something into your branding that is real and genuine and authentic into who you are, that communicates to the client, I didn't just find a clipart image and throw it in a logo and move on. This is part of who I am, and I think it kind of can showcase that investment a little bit more into, the business and the practice when it really does speak to who who you are. And then I would also say, you know, think about who your ideal client is, you know, what population are you working with? Are you working with substance abuse or are you working with men, or are you working with moms? Or are you working with kids and teens families? Who are you working with and what might resonate with that population? That also feels really true and really genuine and really consistent to you. So for us, another thing, that I talked with my branding consultant a lot about was we are a practice that works with with women and moms.

Stephanie Farmer 00:19:58  And so we were very comfortable making our branding more feminine pinks, blues, more feminine colors. I wore very feminine clothing in my brand photos. But if you're working with a wide variety, if you're working with a lot of different types of people, really also making sure and understanding, could my branding potentially exclude part of my target population because of the way that it's developed and positioned? so those are kind of some really key things that I would encourage people to think about as they're doing their own branding. And I have worked in branding myself. to, to really make sure that, that they are being authentic and genuine because for me, what I have found is, is my branding became such a guiding force in a way I didn't really know it would be. And it's instantly recognizable. People know who we are. People say, oh, you're the rope with the anchor in the pink. Yep. That's us. Oh, you wear lily shirts in your pictures? Yeah. That's me. And so I think it it's twofold.

Stephanie Farmer 00:21:07  Make sure you're encompassing yourself and who you are and your values, and making sure that you're thinking about your ideal client and positioning yourself in a way that they would find it appealing, that they would find safety and solace and security. You know, I think for me, I chose my name many years ago when I started my practice, relatively out of graduate school. because for me, I grew up at the beach and I love being on the boat and anchored is I think a lot of people want to feel anchored in their lives. People want to feel anchored. People want to feel secure. And so I would just encourage people to to really kind of think about what resonates and, and what sounds appealing to you, but also who you're going to work with and not exclude people by the way, that you're branding, if that's a subset of people you work.

Andrew Burdette 00:22:03  I like the qualifier there because you're talking about client fit, and there's a lot of things in which you've just shared that I'm like wanting to like, talk about and pick apart a little bit more like first, like when I'm talking to people about groups and identity and things like I think, I think it's equally important for groups to have an identity like an individual counselor is going to have.

Andrew Burdette 00:22:25  And also similar to like, here's our ideal client. Like I have friends at run groups. They're even the ones that are more generalist. I'll say that maybe have 20 or 30 clinicians locally. There's still kind of an angle about you can still, if you spend a little bit of time with your their website, you can still tell like, oh, okay, this is a very LGBTQIA and allyship aligned practice, right? Or this one's a very Bipoc heavy practice or that's kind of where they started, even if they've kind of grown and have a wider range of people that can they can see and accommodate. so I think group identity really matters. one of the questions that comes up a lot with people I work with is, how important do you think it is to have like, say, counseling or therapists in the branding name? Like, does it matter? Does it not matter? I often point out that people like Xerox and Starbucks don't say anything about what either of those companies do. I don't know how many.

Andrew Burdette 00:23:24  is here. I don't even know if zero is still around actually, now thinking about it. But you know, point is like it doesn't really. It's not like toys R us. It says, hey, we sell toys. It's kind of in the name. Like, do you have a thought on our opinion about having counseling or something mental health related in the name?

Stephanie Farmer 00:23:40  I don't know that I necessarily have a strong feeling one way or the other. I mean, mine is anchored counseling services. part of that too, was wanting to name my practice something that other people hadn't named it because as you can imagine, anchor is pretty popular. so part of that was was for me to be able to do that. But, you know, one of the things that I think is, you know, in today's day and age, it's it's so wonderful in a lot of ways, people are very open about wanting to seek counseling, talking to people, asking for recommendations, googling. So I don't know that counseling necessarily, or mental health or therapy or whatever has to be in the in the name of the practice.

Stephanie Farmer 00:24:26  I would say it would probably be more applicable in SEO measures, making sure that those names are prevalent in your digital content, your websites, your blogs, because those are going to get pulled in those digital Google searches where you don't necessarily have to have counseling in the name of the practice or mental health or therapy. But if you I certainly believe that those words need to definitely be heavily present on websites and in digital content so that those things get pulled.

Andrew Burdette 00:24:56  No, I agree, I was talking about algorithm. I think it's primarily Google's algorithm earlier this kind of really no algorithm, the algorithm nowadays, sadly. but yeah, the balance of of weight for different types of things as of the start of this year was probably about 25 ish percent. Do you have keywords throughout your website that you want to be found for, like anxiety therapist near me, right. Like that needs to be laid out in prominent on your website throughout its content. And then the other big kind of two areas I remember, if I'm remembering right, were ongoing content.

Andrew Burdette 00:25:33  So blogging is actually more of a thing now than it's really ever been. Because just because you have good content today doesn't mean it's going to be relevant a year from now, and the algorithm is going to identify that. So if you have really stale content that doesn't get updated, you're not going to be found as well in organic searches. And then like you said, as you're adding content in, if you're focusing on perinatal care, that should be something that shows up regularly in all your blog posts, even if it's not the title of the post or the main focus of it, it should still be there.

Stephanie Farmer 00:26:06  Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, if someone wants to include counseling, therapy, mental health by all means it it's a distinguishing marker. People certainly know what you are the minute they hear your name. But that SEO piece I really learned and come to understand is so critical, because one of the things, sometimes I'll do some one off consulting and one thing I noticed, one person that I was working with did was they had counseling in their name, but they didn't have it in their website very consistently.

Stephanie Farmer 00:26:41  And so we kind of had a conversation about how, while the name very clearly articulates what they're doing, a user looking at that on Google isn't going to see them because counseling and therapy, I think, was maybe listed 1 or 2 times on their website. And so the algorithm wasn't going to pull it. And so I always encourage people when I'm kind of talking with them, and people are working with me on building practices and kind of marketing in particular things is really investing in that, that SEO component.

Andrew Burdette 00:27:13  There are a lot of really affordable tools out there, too. one of the ones I use is called Bright Local. I've used them for years there, like a local SEO type thing. And one of the things is really nice about that service. And it's, it's a I think they do an annual subscription now versus monthly, but it's a couple, it's like under $500 a year. And they will also help you get citations on different other sites and kind of maintain them, which is also another nice thing.

Andrew Burdette 00:27:38  don't take it too far down a rabbit hole, but one of the things that they have is part of their regular package is they will give you can put in keywords, I think it's up to 25 or 30, and they will kind of show you how you stack up against other people. And to your point about, hey, counseling is in the name, but it's not across the website. So Mindful Counseling PLC is the name of my practice. Like we rank really, where I outrank pretty much everybody in Asheville consistently without doing any work, just because mindful counseling shows up enough on my website that displaces them. And that's very different than, say, like anxiety therapy. And until really being conscientious about those other keywords that I want to think of keywords like how you want to be found. If somebody is like shopping and you sell popcorn, are you letting the world know that you sell popcorn? Because if they don't know you sell popcorn, no one's going to know that you no one's going to find you.

Andrew Burdette 00:28:30  Right. And so having like anxiety therapy like added that in wrote a landing page about anxiety therapy and that that was a huge boost overall. And it's kind of faded because we haven't really done anything in about six months. So that kind of fresh new info is kind of worn off a bit the buzz, but just having a couple landing pages for like say, anxiety therapy or depression therapy and these other things like huge, huge, huge boost across other search terms for the website, which then collectively has a cumulative aggregated effect. So yeah.

Stephanie Farmer 00:29:02  And we have those as well. So you know, while we specialize in working with moms and that really is our key focus, we do work with college students. We work with young adult women who are in transition. We work with women who are menopausal or have kids flying the nest. So we have distinguished on our website, we have a page for individual therapy, and then we have a landing page that is purely titled therapy for moms. So we do differentiate that as well too, so that people who are coming to our website also know if they're a young woman struggling with career stress, they know very clearly where to go versus if this is a new mom struggling with postpartum anxiety.

Stephanie Farmer 00:29:44  She also very clearly knows where to go to read about our qualifications and the way we work with her differently than the way we work with our college students. If.

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Andrew Burdette 00:30:49  One other thing. And this is this gets into like some personal bias and pet peeves I have about user interface on websites and things.

Andrew Burdette 00:30:58  I know a practice owner who had a really excellent person redo their website, but because the emphasis was so SEO friendly like it re, his website feels like it's meant to only please the algorithm and humans are second or third. Right. And to listeners out there, whether you hire somebody to do your website and these other things or whatnot, I think it's worth maybe taking a little bit of a hit about not having like the literal keyword spelled out the algorithm way to have it humanized so it doesn't read like I or computer to computer. I think that's super important. And yeah, I.

Stephanie Farmer 00:31:36  Completely agree with that. And I will say I definitely had a very heavy hand in the copywriting and the content writing for my website, and there were absolutely times that there were things I took out because I said, this doesn't feel like me, and this isn't something I would say if one of my clients read this, they would know it wasn't me. If one of my friends read this, they would know it wasn't me.

Stephanie Farmer 00:32:02  And so that's another just tip I would give people, whether you're working with someone or not. Back to that authenticity and that genuine piece that that I always come back to is. Yes, there are great ways to incorporate SEO and be found, but that genuine and that authentic presentation, whether it be in a one on one conversation with somebody, your social media, any type of marketing, you do that one on one, relationship and that authenticity that's going to speak volumes and that's going to be more beneficial in the long run, because you're going to develop a reputation for being consistent and genuine. People aren't going to read your website and say, this was written for Google. They're going to read it and say, this was written for me, and then they're going to call me. Yeah.

Andrew Burdette 00:32:47  And and to that end, to you as somebody that really doesn't enjoy copywriting at all, leverage your AI tools is starting points really truthfully, like you can if you kind of learn a little bit about how to work with like a ChatGPT algorithm, for example, like, so for me, like stuff I don't enjoy writing or like the generic, like, say a generic but the, you know, the anxiety therapy page, which helps with SEO and you're kind of really knowingly put it up there for mainly that like and every therapist website nowadays there's thousands of anxiety therapy pages.

Andrew Burdette 00:33:21  So how how unique can I really do it. And you know, having a good starting point, let's say with like ChatGPT. And then how I kind of then use that was literally just would kind of rewrite the whole thing in my own voice and tweak it a bit. And so you can still humanize it and bring your own self into that content, even if it's just what feels like an intro to counseling paper on what anxiety is, right? You can still find a balance. It's okay. Yeah.

Stephanie Farmer 00:33:48  Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, it's it's all about what works for you and what feels consistent with with who you're working with and and who you're hoping to bring into your practice.

Andrew Burdette 00:33:59  Yeah. My blog, whenever I get around to blog posting, if I ever do, you know, writing about what an existential crisis feels like is way more appealing to me than anxiety therapy, which we all do to to some degree because every therapist does anxiety at some point. But yeah, that that would be something I have passion to write, something from scratch from versus just here's a landing page because my website should have one.

Andrew Burdette 00:34:21  And and again, for listeners out there like it's okay to hire a company to do this, there's plenty of companies that do it. Just. Are you are you like a DIY person like me for some things, or are you just don't want to deal with it at all, like social media and just want someone else to make it work and I never have to touch it, right? Like.

Stephanie Farmer 00:34:41  Well, and I think that's, you know, as a group practice owner, I mean, those are the decisions that we're constantly making is, you know, what what part of running this practice do I want to take ownership of? What part of, running this practice do I outsource? Where where do I get help and and where do I step in myself? And it's that constant balancing act. But I always talk to people and and just encourage them. Don't be intimidated to be inquisitive, you know, asking questions, starting the process doesn't mean you're committing to anything. You know, it doesn't hurt to be inquisitive, and it's it can be overwhelming, but it doesn't have to be.

Andrew Burdette 00:35:20  I was encouraged people. I'm like, identify your least favorite thing to do and then get someone else to do it for you as soon as possible.

Stephanie Farmer 00:35:27  Yes, absolutely. And for me, that's accounting and bookkeeping. I do not enjoy that. I also do not enjoy dealing with insurance. And I have a wonderful billing coordinator that that does all that. And that takes so much stress and pressure off of me. And, and I genuinely love being with my clients, and I genuinely love networking and forming relationships. And so those are the two things that when I really sat down and said, what do I want to keep? Were most important to me, was to continue to do client work and to continue to sit with with the the women that I work with every day and then to continue to be, you know, using those business skills and incorporating that part of myself that has kind of been reinvigorated by the relationship piece and the branding piece and, really just making sure that I have the time to do both of those things by offloading some of those other things.

Andrew Burdette 00:36:22  So I want to ask a little bit, make sure we talk about networking in particular, but just marketing in general. And both of these are terms that you mentioned, to therapists. And you can just see the like the soul leave the body because it's just like, oh, I gotta do what? Like, so my practice, I really encourage people to spend a couple hours a month, like meeting other people in the field or just people that build those relationships. Right. And I think everyone in my practice, I've had to kind of coach a little bit on marketing is a salesy thing, because the goal is to have that deal closure and actually have the conversion to a client. Networking is just talking to people. one of the best things I learned when I worked in Hollywood film and television where like as a gig worker or project worker, you're always needing to know people and they need to know your available to do certain kinds of work. And so having a degree of consistent interaction with people was really necessary most of the time.

Andrew Burdette 00:37:20  And what I learned was networking. The only real goal should be making the connection like the human to human connection. If there's any other agenda, like people pick up on that and then we'll kind of you lose the human connection part, because they can sense that you're kind of looking for a sale or looking for a job or whatever it is. And networking to me, as I kind of coach my people, is just focus on getting to know the person. And is that kind of your approach to things as well, and if so, how do you how do you help coach people on that?

Stephanie Farmer 00:37:54  Yeah, absolutely. I, I am definitely a relationship person. I have been that my whole life and I grew up as an athlete and now am a coach and coach teenagers. So you know that that definitely is. My approach is, is how do you engage with people in very meaningful ways to form relationships and understanding? so for me, you know, when I meet with someone, I really spend a lot of time thinking about who are the people that my clients come in contact with every single day, who are the professionals, who are the people in their life that they come in contact with every single day? Because one, those are people I'm going to need to refer my clients to my clients or new moms.

Stephanie Farmer 00:38:42  So a lot of times it's lactation consultants, it's pelvic floor physical therapists, it's Pts, it's OTS, it's OB GYNs. So I think a lot about the people that my clients are going to come into contact with that are going to ask me, hey, Stephanie, do you know a new a good ob gyn? I didn't have a great experience and I'd like a new one. Or hey, I'm really struggling postpartum. Can you refer me to a pelvic PT? So I really spend a lot of time intentionally thinking about who are the people that my clients are going to come in contact with, because I need to have relationships with them so that I know I can trust them to refer to them that they are going to be safe providers for my clients, so that I can confidently say, I've met with this person, they're going to be a great fit. And so that's really where I start. And then I spend a lot of time getting to know them, learning more about their practices, learning more about their professional roles, who they serve, how they work, how do they approach things, so that I'm gaining a good understanding.

Stephanie Farmer 00:39:50  And oftentimes in those conversations, it's tell me then about what you do. And so then I'm just able to really, authentically and genuinely share who we are and what we do. And there comes to be this mutual understanding through the conversation of we are both safe for each other's clients, and it creates that relationship where there's very little sales or push or icky feeling, for lack of a better word, that comes with it, because we both are genuinely seeking to understand what the other does and understanding how we can support each other's clients holistically and create a better experience for the client. So I'm very much about relationships, connections, going to coffee, having lunch, setting up a zoom meeting, you know, really making sure that I know who I'm talking to so that when I send my clients to them, I'm confident and making sure that they understand who they're talking to. So when they send their clients to us, they're just as confident.

Andrew Burdette 00:41:01  Yeah, I somebody during the pandemic had suggested like virtual coffee dates to like stay in contact with other people.

Andrew Burdette 00:41:07  And it's great. I mean, meeting up over zoom for is so easy to do. I mean, we all do. We're all super comfortable after 4 or 5 years of doing it now anyway. And it's really easy. And again, like you said, just I'm much more comfortable referring to people that have at least taken the time to like, say hello and just humanize themselves versus just here's a picture on a website of this person I've never talked to. And, you know, I may not, after 15 minutes, get the like full level of safety of like I would trust this person like, you know, ride or die, but like, it's at least something, right? If you're not really to me, like, it's important to have other people that are willing to just take that little bit of time to be human to one another. And it makes a big difference. for people that maybe work in other areas of mental health that isn't as working in perinatal and it's really specific. So, you know, it's really easy to say, here's the kind of providers on my clients are definitely going to see for, for maybe somebody that works a little more general mental health, that's maybe not as substance use specific or eating disorders specific to any recommendations on how to think about who to talk to, to network with.

Stephanie Farmer 00:42:18  Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I remember doing a lot when I was just getting into the field and, and wasn't perinatal specific and just kind of trying to build my client base, was really asking myself, who does what I know I can't do? So I, I have never specialized in OCD. but there were times I would get calls for OCD clients and I would need to refer out. So I would meet with those people and have conversations and say, hey, sometimes I get these referrals. I'd love to know more about what you do and how you work so that I can refer to you. And oftentimes they would say, well, tell me about what you do. You don't do OCD, what do you do? Because oftentimes, especially when I was in the eating disorder field, they would refer those eating disorder clients to me. So one of the things I always encourage people to think about is who does what you don't do. Because if you get those phone calls you need people to refer to, but you may also do something that they don't do that they can then also have a conversation with you about, and you can become a referral source for them.

Stephanie Farmer 00:43:22  So that's one thing I always encourage people to kind of think about is who does what you don't do. So when you get a phone call and you say, I'm sorry, this isn't in my specialty. However, here's a great referral. You have that for your own needs, and they can potentially refer to you if they're in the same situation. Another thing I always encourage people to think about is if their ideal client is, you know, an anxious teenager. Let's say their ideal client is an anxious 16 year old school counselors. Those are wonderful relationships to develop, because school counselors are so limited on what they can do in the school setting, they're often referring to the community. So, you know, if your ideal client is an anxious 16 year old, their school counselor is a touchpoint for them that could refer to you. So school counseling, you know, youth sports organizations, some children, teenagers will open up to their coaches. Their coaches can be referral sources. you know, thinking about dance teachers, you know, dance studios where, you know, maybe an anxious 14 year old girl is telling her her dance coach, I feel really insecure in my body and I'm overwhelmed in the dance.

Stephanie Farmer 00:44:36  Coach can be. I met this really great counselor in town the other day, and you know what? She might be a great fit. So thinking about where that ideal client is, who they're going to interact with, and who's potentially going to be influential so that they can say, you know what? Like I just met with this great counselor. Here you go. So really thinking about where that ideal client works, plays, lives, and who has their ear. Is it a faith community if you're working with grief and loss? Is it a hospice? is it the hospital system? Are they funeral homes? Who who is coming in contact with that ideal person? And how can you develop those relationships?

Andrew Burdette 00:45:25  Doctors practices and psychiatry oriented practices too. the I role, I relate to that to you because they're so hard to get Ahold of. Any any thoughts on how to, like, reach those particular practices? Because again, they may not be as consistent for volume as, you know, if you're like your OBGYN for perinatal stuff would be probably a more a higher level of referrals like on a regular basis.

Andrew Burdette 00:45:51  But this primary care is like a lot of people move in to Asheville, have no relationship to anybody, and then they're like, hey, I don't have a doctor or the psychiatrist that gave me my Lexapro or whatever, you know, as some random person on Teladoc, it'd be nice to see somebody in person. So any any insight or wisdom on how to, like, reach those other provider types.

Stephanie Farmer 00:46:12  So one of the things that I remember, learning in Allison's Abundance Party when I was first starting the practice, is one of the key things that stuck out to me that Allison always says is do not ever send a letter or business cards or a mass email to practices, because all it will do is end up in the in the trash. and and that's still to this day replays in my head. so when when I think about kind of reaching out to these larger practices in these people, that is where that personal connection is so important. And so for me, you know, I've, I've connected with OB practices through individual physicians on Instagram.

Stephanie Farmer 00:46:52  I've used Instagram to develop relationships, and then we've we've chatted and then decided to schedule a zoom meeting and spent an hour speaking with each other and a follow up. And we maintain those relationships. Other ideas are to offer to do a lunch and learn an inservice, at, you know, a physician's office. If you're an eating disorder clinician, you know, maybe you offer at a pediatrician's office to do a eating disorders 101, you know, questions to ask clients, how to tell, how to refer, how to screen, you know, kind of offering that service and that expertise because you have it and you're worthy of being able to bring that to the table. So offering things like workshops where, lunch and learns or things that can be beneficial for them, where they can get to know you and hear your clinical experience, your expertise. Because if you send a cold email or you send a letter in the mail. They don't have any idea if you're a skilled therapist, if you're an ethical therapist, if you even actually know anything about what you're claiming to know about.

Stephanie Farmer 00:47:58  But those lunch and learn type presentations really help you solidify. I am skilled in this space, I am knowledgeable, I am a person. So when you send your 13 year old that you've just noticed has anorexia to me, you know exactly who who you're sending them to and you know that I know how to help. So offering things like in services has has been very helpful for us in terms of getting in the door. You know, again, if there are individual providers on Instagram, don't be afraid to reach out. I have cultivated so many relationships. Some of our strongest referral relationships started through direct messaging on Instagram. but another thing that I've really realized and learned and understood. And it's kind of to your point earlier about marketing is sales based, but you don't want it to feel that way or sound that way. And and one of the things that I've really learned is when you reach out to people, be just as inquisitive about what they do as you are, as eager to tell them about what you do.

Andrew Burdette 00:49:07  Yeah, if anything, just ask them questions. They'll eventually ask you questions, and if they don't ask you questions, maybe you don't want to work with them either. It's, you know, as group owners too, like with the hiring process, it's odd to not have you get the occasional applicant that doesn't ask questions and doesn't have anything. And I'm like, there has to be something, right? Like there's there's no never not a question, maybe not at this moment, but, you know, similar kind of thing. Like people people want to talk about themselves.

Stephanie Farmer 00:49:34  Yeah. And it's just giving them the opportunity to share because again, it's also a learning experience for you. I mean, I, I have recently met with several wonderful providers that I refer so many of our clients to. because of just those conversations, tell me about you. Tell me about your practice. And we formed wonderful relationships and my clients that see them rave about them. And it's all about, again, just kind of being inquisitive and not being overly pushy.

Andrew Burdette 00:50:09  Also, I will confirm that the front desk is going to throw whatever you send them in the trash. I, I've had my main office has been like in the adjoining suite to a primary care office, and I'm really good friends with the front desk people. They're super cool, and whatever. And asked like six months ago, I was like, hey, so I have this stuff. Is there any way to get you to pay attention? And she just pulled the blue recycling bin out from under her desk and said, I don't know what I could tell you to do that because if you send me this, no matter what it looks like, it's going to just we'll give it a single glance and off it goes. And, one one suggestion that came from a friend of mine about how to read psychiatric providers or probably Primary Care two is she will get permission from a client that she's got rapport with to get a release of information and then send a letter over to the doctor's office to say, can we coordinate care about patient X? And the added thing with that is when the doctors, if the doctor's office calls and says, hey, I'm free at 1:00 on a Tuesday, you show up the end like you move whatever you need to do to do that.

Andrew Burdette 00:51:13  But, whatever time they give you, if they give you a time, that's when you show up and then that's your kind of foot in the door entry point.

Stephanie Farmer 00:51:21  Absolutely, absolutely. We we do a lot of coordination of care, obviously with with a line of work that we're in, in the client base that we see. and, you know, if our clients are comfortable, at intake, we ask, you know, what other providers are you seeing? Would it be helpful for us to have conversations with them to coordinate your care. And are you comfortable signing a release of information for us to do that? And some clients are, and we have them sign the release and some of them are working with folks we already know. Sometimes they're working with folks we don't know if they are working with folks we don't know. We always do reach out once we get that release of information. And if their clients that aren't comfortable signing the release of information, we we don't reach out. But that that certainly has been an avenue for us as well.

Stephanie Farmer 00:52:11  because while we get a lot of clients from the same folks, occasionally we'll get them from someone new. And, we're very intentional to track where our referrals come from as as all group owners are. So we do pay attention to those so that if there is a new name and we notice there is a release on file, then I very much make it a priority to reach out.

Andrew Burdette 00:52:33  for listeners out there, are there any key takeaways from this conversation? You want to make sure they know.

Stephanie Farmer 00:52:38  It sounds really silly, but don't be afraid of marketing. Marketing can be something that can be very genuine and it can be very authentic. And the great thing about marketing is when you're doing it in a genuine and authentic way, it doesn't feel like selling. It feels very natural and it feels very organic. And I always tell people when I consult and when I work with folks, don't start with the biggest, scariest thing as your first foray into marketing. If social media is something that doesn't feel good, or if you want to network and you have a high priority person on your list that feels make it or break it, don't have your first meeting with that primary care practice.

Stephanie Farmer 00:53:21  Don't have your first meeting with that psychiatrist that really could refer a lot of folks to you. Start where you're comfortable and build forward. Start small and work your way up. Because again, when you can have one good networking meeting and that boosts your confidence, that's going to help just continue generating more and more. So working it from the angle that that feels comfortable to you in the sense of you challenge yourself some and you don't just throw your hands up and say, I can't do it, but you also don't swing for the fence the first attempt. Give yourself a chance to build confidence. But what I've always learned and what I've always known, and in the many years in pure marketing, and then as a therapist who does marketing is people connect with people. People want authenticity. People want what's real, people want what's genuine. And if you show up in those ways, that's how you're going to be successful, because that's exactly what our clients want.

Andrew Burdette 00:54:22  If you a good reframe and I communicate this to my clinicians to when they're thinking about this is this is about building community that's really fundamentally what it is.

Andrew Burdette 00:54:33  And share referrals are going to be a part of that. But it's because you're a known community member. Kind of like, hey, I need a mechanic. And and thinking of that same thing or a dentist or. Where is it? Good place. I could go take a yoga class. Like, same kind of community. And you're just introducing yourself to say, hey, I'm a therapist. I like to work with ABC.

Stephanie Farmer 00:54:53  Right? Absolutely. And that community is so helpful. I mean, I think about some of our referral sources that have become, you know, great professional colleagues that I'm able to consult with and I'm able to to learn from and enhance my own skills and my own practice because I'm part of this community of professionals and there's a real camaraderie in it. And so I also encourage people not to look at it from a scarcity perspective. There's so many of us out there, but the need is so great. And and looking at relationship building as like you said, community, not competition is another thing that I encourage any and everybody I talk to marketing about because again, this need is never going to end regardless of who we work with, how we serve people, what therapeutic approach we work from, the need is always going to exist.

Stephanie Farmer 00:55:47  But having that community makes working in this space so rewarding and in a different way, and having that community is so important. I'm very grateful for for the community that we have, because we collaborate, we we don't look at each other as a threat. We look at each other as as partners, and it ultimately benefits our clients.

Andrew Burdette 00:56:11  And that's what we're here, I guess one little final note on that point, but as we're wrapping up, is if you're out there and struggling to build a caseload, it's probably because people don't know what you have to offer, and that just hasn't been communicated to the right audience yet. It's not that there's a lack of clients out there to be had, it's just if you're a specialist in OCD and no one knows that, then how does anybody know that you're available to do that? It's really all it is. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if people want to work with you, how can they find you? And we'll have all this link in the show notes, too.

Andrew Burdette 00:56:43  So, but yeah, how if someone wants to reach out and work with you either as a clinical client or as a, you know, hiring you for consulting or whatever, how would somebody find you?

Stephanie Farmer 00:56:52  Yeah. So, they can reach out to us in a couple of ways. our website is anchored. Counseling edu comm. So as in Raleigh Durham? they can also reach out to me. My email address is Stephanie at Anchored counseling.com. And then we are on Instagram as at Anchored counseling.com. a lot of that content is very mom specific and mom related. So if listeners are moms and want to laugh or want to want to feel seen and heard, they can they can follow us on Instagram. Cool.

Andrew Burdette 00:57:27  Well, thanks so much for being on the show. This has been a really, really cool topic to talk about and just I appreciate your lens coming from that strictly marketing background of to add how human or how to humanize that for what we do. Because again, if just sales sounds icky and makes most of us therapists just kind of cringe at the thought of it, and I really appreciate you demystifying and kind of defying things.

Andrew Burdette 00:57:50  So yeah.

Stephanie Farmer 00:57:52  Well, I appreciated being on the show. Thank you so much for having me.

Andrew Burdette 00:58:02  If you love this podcast, please be sure to rate and review. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher or the guest are rendering legal, accounting, clinical or any other professional information. If you want professional, you should find one.