Joe Sanok (00:00:00) – You can spend lots of time going on YouTube, reading people’s blogs, even listening to podcasts like this. But if you can find someone you trust and you understand what they’re teaching, they can save you time. If you just follow them. If you dive into what they’re looking at, teaching you. That’s why we put together Pillars of Practice, a totally free e-course to help you, whether you’re a solo practitioner or a group practitioner, to get the basic checklists and trainings that you need to rock out your private practice. So head on over to Pillars of Practice to get access to this free e-course. Again, that’s pillars of practice. Speaker UU (00:00:45) – This is the. Joe Sanok (00:00:46) – Practice of the Practice podcast with Joe Santos. Session number 884. I’m Joe. Santa. Your house, Your house, your host. We’re talking about spaces today, so I think it’s hilarious that my subconscious said, I’m your house for today. I’m leaving that in. I’m just like your host. And I also like houses and spaces, so I am so excited. Joe Sanok (00:01:14) – Today we are going to be having a conversation about office spaces, about what is around us, about design. I mean, this is stuff that I absolutely love. I have owned Airbnbs for years. I’ve had three. I even had my own house be an Airbnb for a little bit. I now have a vacation rental in northern Michigan that I don’t have. The other two I used to have and when I bought it, the space attracted the people that were coming and that was a bunch of people that wanted to party and sleep on futons. And so right away we got the futons out of there. We had a neutral gray painted some beautiful artwork, mid-century modern furniture, and now it’s a place that whenever I visit, I’m like, Why don’t I stay up here more often? This place is amazing. The same is true in our offices and the work that we do, and we’re going to be really digging into that today. I know that when I had mental wellness counseling before I sold that in 2019, I would walk into my office every time that I walked in, I would just be like, This is my office. Joe Sanok (00:02:13) – It just makes me feel so good. It had the furniture I wanted, it had the art that I wanted. It had just the feel that I wanted. And it just made me feel like I was on my game and ready to get to work. And so today, I can’t wait for the conversation that we are going to have. Today. We’re hanging out with Carolyn Boldt, and Carolyn is personally passionate about holistic health and wellness and is an outspoken advocate that the environment of your space impacts your success. And in 2004, she and her husband, Scott co founded Cross Fields, which is a design build firm in Atlanta. And in 2011 2012, they changed their focus to really expand the impact of holistic health by elevating the public’s image of alternative medicine through virtually creating outstanding healing environments nationwide. Carolyn, welcome to the Practice of the Practice podcast. I’m so glad that you’re here today. Carolyn Boldt (00:03:06) – Thank you for having me. Joe Sanok (00:03:07) – So yeah, I got to laugh at that. You know, being the house right at the beginning there, we we were talking design before we started and it just was in my brain. Carolyn Boldt (00:03:16) – Very good. I got it. Joe Sanok (00:03:18) – Well, well, let’s dive right in. So you decided to shift gears 2011, 2012 in there to focus more on the kind of holistic health industry as you’re focused for design. Tell us more what you were focusing on before that. Carolyn Boldt (00:03:32) – So I’ve been a commercial interior architect for since, what, two, 1980. So yes, I’m old and we were doing work. My husband and I were working together doing design build in the Atlanta area, as you mentioned in the bio. And we were working for Life University, which is a large chiropractic college here in the Atlanta area. And at the time, like university, when we started with them, it was about 2003. They were between presidents. They’d lost a lot of ground. They almost lost their accreditation and new president came on board and ask us to help change the image of the university by focusing on the space. So if you know anything about commercial interior design, the focus is that environment should be part of your business plan. Carolyn Boldt (00:04:26) – It should be part of your marketing plan, it should be part of your identity because that environment is going to attract or it’s going to repel the people. You want to be there that are actually going to create income for you. So he understood that. He understood that the environment that he was handed had been very deteriorated. It was very dated. It wasn’t functioning well. And. He knew that to attract the students that he wanted and to grow the university again, the environment was going to be a key piece. So we continued to work at the university really until 2014, 15, 16, I guess some of our last. In fact, we still do a little projects with them here and there. But what was happening is we were on campus all the time. They became our main client. We were doing design build all over the place and we began to be integrated into the understanding of chiropractic as a business and the chiropractic psychographic and the chiropractic, the culture. We got immersed in the culture at the same time, and we begin to understand their pains and a lot of the things that they were dealing with. Carolyn Boldt (00:05:34) – So at the same time, we’re already chiropractic patients. My daughter at two years old was healed of tonsillitis through chiropractic. And so I’d been a patient for, you know, going on 20 years at that point. So she so it just merged together that. Well, let me add a business sense to this. We also realized that we didn’t really have a business. We really just owned our job. And that’s a whole nother conversation. Um, and we read a book called The E-Myth by Michael Gerber. And oh yeah, it changed the trajectory of what we were doing. We, we got it. So we began a lot of those things all kind of came together. We also had the opportunity to help a a young chiropractor that was opening up around the corner. My doctor said, Why don’t you go help him? I bartered with him and that was in 2009 and I just fell in love with working with the individual as opposed to corporations, which had been my background and totally different, where you can really help a person meet their dreams as opposed to all the committees. Carolyn Boldt (00:06:39) – You follow what I’m saying. So there was just a lot of little things that came together in 2009 2010 when we read the book. Also at 2010, Life University asked us if we would teach a class to the students because they knew we were passionate about helping the students, you know, expand, become who they could be. So we created a course called, um, but well, I can’t remember what it’s called right now, but we were focused on how your environment impacts your success because we wanted to educate them, to make them aware that we said it earlier, that your environment, your office space is your package of you, the product, and it needs to be intentionally designed to attract and retain your patients. So that was kind of the start and that’s what we’re going to talk about today, right? So we developed this virtual. We did. So yeah, we decided in 2000. Let me just finish that part. We knew that if we were going to focus on chiropractors, there wasn’t enough in the Atlanta area to have that one on one. Carolyn Boldt (00:07:40) – So we had to create a virtual platform, which we did. And yeah, so we started doing virtual in 2011, 2012 and doing it ever since. Joe Sanok (00:07:50) – Get ready around the time practice the practice started. That’s amazing. Yeah. Tell us so that when you guys were reading E-Myth for those that haven’t read it, will you just give a summary of the key takeaways that you took away from it and how that then helped shift how you thought about business differently? Carolyn Boldt (00:08:06) – So one of the things that I remember is he described what a business really is, and a business is really something that can produce income for you. It is not just you working, and that’s a very poor, poor paraphrase of his elegant language in that. But it was the idea that we had another thing, another statement he had in there was most business owners are just people that had an entrepreneurial seizure. They’re really, really good technicians. It’s what he called it. They’re really good at what they do, and they have this entrepreneurial seizure that decide that they could do it better if they could do it on their own and don’t really understand what getting into a business and running a business is all about. Carolyn Boldt (00:08:56) – And it’s not about necessarily what they’re really good at. It’s also about marketing and it’s also about developing systems, and it’s also about doing all the management and the business and all of those type of things. So what had happened is my husband and I were exactly what he described, is that we were excellent technicians, but we were doing all these other things and we were not capable of ever walking away and letting that business run by itself. So we didn’t really have a business that produced income. We just had a job that we owned. So that’s my takeaway. Joe Sanok (00:09:34) – Yeah. So then what did you shift when you started thinking differently about it? Carolyn Boldt (00:09:40) – We began to look at what could we do? Well, first off, we knew we wanted to figure out a way to serve this this chiropractic initially. And now we serve pretty much all holistic, but just to help elevate. So we knew we had a passion for that. So that passion had to start. And then the second thing was that we had to figure out how could we systematize the process of design so that anyone could do it any not anyone, but any other designer could do it. Carolyn Boldt (00:10:13) – It wasn’t just the Carolyn and Scott show. It was a duplicate system that we could eventually hire other designers and they would already be trained as a designer, but they would then be trained in our system and then they could do that and produce, you know, the same type of quality for every client that we had. So that was the first thing we had to systematize. And then from there we had to systematize our marketing and we’re still working on systematizing some of our management. But you, you get the picture. So the idea is that those systems are in place so that the people that are doing the job can do it without you needing to be in the middle, because we were in the bottleneck of everything. We did have employees, but we were the bottleneck. Everything ran through us and so we had no life. And because we were doing a lot of work at Life University, most of the time they needed work. A lot of the focus was when they had breaks. So we were finding at Christmas time. We were working nonstop. We’re finding a lot of summers working nonstop. So all the that we didn’t have a life, so we needed those things to be created. If you’re following me. Joe Sanok (00:11:23) – Yeah. So, so then when you start to think about over the last ten years, focusing really in the wellness space and that so many of our therapists, if not all of them, that listen to this, what are some core pillars maybe that people should should think through and you know your framework better than I do? Like, is it best to kind of walk through the rooms of an office? Is there are there certain pillars that people should focus on? If we were to kind of conceptualize this for folks in regards to what they should really be doing when they think about their space as being a design or their the way it’s designed, really being that space for them. What would you say are the core principles that they should understand? Carolyn Boldt (00:12:05) – The the basic core principle is to understand the philosophy of form follows function. Carolyn Boldt (00:12:13) – So I know a lot of people have heard that. But what that means to a designer is that form and function are connected form being the aesthetic three dimensional space function, obviously. Does it work? Does the space do what you need it to do to serve you from a layout, from a you know, are things where they need to be for them to work. If you have a larger space, does it flow from space to space so that the people in it are efficient? Um, does it function as does it meet the needs of your clientele and such that I’m going to use an example. Do you have kids? Do we have functional spaces that make those? Those items, they work. So it doesn’t really have to do with the aesthetics. It has to do with it works good. It has to work. So if it doesn’t work well, then it’s going to cost you money. If it works well, it’s going to save you money and eventually make you money because you can have those efficiencies of systems. So it’s a system in itself if you follow me. Joe Sanok (00:13:17) – So so really looking at the system first, the flow first to save you money and really have whoever your ideal client is, have that space be set up so that the function of that space comes out of the form. Carolyn Boldt (00:13:31) – Exactly. The function starts. Yes, it starts with that function. Then the form is the three dimensional aesthetic space. Okay. So that is the part that so we talk about you need to maximize space and flow. That’s number one. And then number two is you need to your space needs to attract and retain your patience. And that’s where we get into the environment that you create in that three dimensional space is going to have a psychological impact on the people that are in it. And and that’s what happens in commercial interior design and interior architect. If you think about a retail space, it’s designed very purposely to attract the people that they want to shop there. So whether that is a Walmart or whether that’s a high end designer store, it’s very purposely designed to attract those patients, not patients, but clientele that they want to shop there and also to stimulate their brand and their identity. So it’s an extension. It’s part of their brand. So we talk about Walmart. When I teach these classes, we talk about Walmart with no criticism to Walmart at all because they’re a very financially profitable business, but their goal is to be the low priced leader in every decision on that interior is focused on them being the low price leader, whether it’s the lights, whether it’s the the hard flooring, advertisements everywhere you expect to walk in and get a deal. The culture that they’ve created is very, very comfortable, sometimes too comfortable, we say. But it’s that it promotes that. Then if you turn around and look at like a high end designer boutique, it’s totally opposite. You think about what you wear, you don’t see prices very much, etcetera. So all of that is very intentional to to support what they’re trying to do. So that’s retail design in the hospitality design. If you think about it, it is creating that place that environmentally they want people to be. Carolyn Boldt (00:15:35) – So let’s think about your restaurant, your favorite restaurant. Think about, Hey, where do I want to go to eat? Yes, you think about the food, but you also think about an environment and how you’re going to feel in that environment. And you make choices on where you’re going to go based on what you want at that moment and what and how that comes into play. So in a in a doctor’s office, in a practitioner’s office, that office has the ability to do exactly the same thing, to support what that practitioner is speaking and saying and doing and wanting to accomplish for their patients. 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Just use promo code Joe at checkout. What are some of the biggest no nos that you see in a clinician space when we’re looking specifically at that form? Things that maybe are pretty common that you would just say, please stop doing this. Carolyn Boldt (00:17:41) – Well, the very first thing is it’s usually cluttered and disorganized. So whether we like it or not, when we start to live in our own space, we don’t see it anymore. You know, we don’t see it the same way. And so we have a at the end, I’ll tell you about the free resources that we have. Carolyn Boldt (00:17:58) – But one of the free resources we wrote is actually a designer’s five point checklist where we look at the items that we would first look at when we’re looking at a space on something that needs to be updated. So yeah, first the very first thing is, is it cluttered? Are there advertisements stuck everywhere? I’d love to see pictures when we patients and clients begin to show us their spaces and you see pictures of them and it just has nothing but a whole bunch of brochures across the front of their desk and or they’ve got things stuck on the wall with tape and things that they just don’t. A lot of them just don’t think about. And that actually doesn’t create a professionalism. It becomes very confusing. It’s too much information. So psychologically, that new patient that comes in is not getting that first impression that you probably want them to get. So that’s one of the first things. Another thing is, are things worn out? Are they torn up or are they or do you have chairs with rips in them or do you have. Carolyn Boldt (00:19:01) – I laugh about the exam tables with duct tape on them. You know, the that doesn’t, that doesn’t show. What would you what do you think when you see something like that? You know? Joe Sanok (00:19:13) – Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you think that if that person doesn’t care about the quality of their space, how much do they care about the quality of their professionalism? And, you know, it may not be true, but, you know, people make those assumptions. Carolyn Boldt (00:19:25) – Very much so. So it’s that first impression and understanding it. So that’s why we talk about it. It’s part of your marketing. It’s just like when somebody is looking for you and they open up your website. If that website is confusing or not attractive or anything, they probably will go off of it and find the next person on the list. So it’s the same kind of idea. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so there’s the other ones. I think one of them is are things dated because things are going to date every seven years and if things get dated, it doesn’t look like you’re up to date. Carolyn Boldt (00:19:59) – It doesn’t look like you know what you’re doing. It doesn’t like look like you keep up with things. So these subtle psychology of what a patient is thinking, another one is what is the lighting feel like? Um, lighting is a really important energy for people. And whether it’s low light, what do you, what’s happening with the light? And it wasn’t intentional with what you wanted to do with that. Joe Sanok (00:20:24) – Yeah. I mean even just thinking about. So we have one of those in town. It’s called Bio Fuse. And so it’s like these, like I’ve types of places where if people are hungover or if they want a like wellness boost or they’re feeling sick, you know, they can go in there and pay 100 or 200 bucks to get an IV. And I was feeling really sick in the fall. And, you know, my doctor had said, you know, I think one of these like high vitamin IVs would be really helpful for you. So it was my first time going in there, and this place looked like a mac store. Joe Sanok (00:20:53) – I mean, it was beautiful. And, you know, the idea of going to some place and then getting a needle in me like just felt like really kind of worrisome, you know? But even just being in this space that looked gorgeous, it was like, okay, I feel like I’m in better hands. And I still had my questions of like, what? What’s your certification to be able to give an IV? How many IVs have you done those sorts of things. But to think, you know, they’re making 100 to 200 bucks off of each person with an IV and having, you know, maybe 1 or 2 people an hour and it looks beautiful. And how many therapy offices that are charging 200 plus dollars per session, like don’t take the time to look really good and to feel like you’re getting your money’s worth. And it’s a beautiful office. And, you know, that’s just a part of what you and I were talking about before we came on of the packaging of that office. Joe Sanok (00:21:39) – And I loved how you would you had been the one that said that to me, of that the way your office looks is part of that packaging, of the marketing of your office. Carolyn Boldt (00:21:47) – Very much so. It’s just like when you and one of the things that need to be considered is you’re not designing just for you. So unlike your house. But you said it very well when you talked about your was it an Airbnb that you had that. Yeah, yeah. Change the furniture and you change the people that started coming to that space. Right. And it that’s you designed to attract who you want to be at that space. So you design who your to, who your ideal patient is going to be. And I know that’s really hard for a lot of people I know. Oh, we serve everyone. Yes. Well, if you could only serve one person, who would that ideal person be? And then everyone else you serve will kind of come out of the edges of that. So think about that first. Carolyn Boldt (00:22:40) – It’s like, who is my ideal patient? How old are they? What are their expectations? What are their demographics? What are their psychographics? All of that type of what are they like? What do they enjoy? And what’s interesting is that you’re not because you’re not designing your office for you, although you’re in it a lot. So it does matter. But what’s interesting is that a lot of times your ideal patient will like the same stuff you like because that’s where that connectivity comes from. So we don’t we’re not saying don’t you don’t have to like your space. You’re only designing for this other person. There’s got to be a blend if you follow me what I’m saying. But it’s focused on the ideal patient, not just on you. It’s not your house. Joe Sanok (00:23:24) – Yeah, No. If we were to start to really dig into just some things that people could do, you know, in the next, say, couple of months, you know, this is airing in June when it goes live, you know, maybe people realize, okay, July and August, it might be a little bit slower, but I want to do some things to spruce up my environment, to really change it. Joe Sanok (00:23:43) – What are a handful of things that they could consider doing to up their game when it comes to how their office looks? Carolyn Boldt (00:23:49) – Well, as I mentioned before, that five point designer checklist. Joe Sanok (00:23:52) – Oh, yeah. Carolyn Boldt (00:23:53) – But that’s but but let’s just talk about that. The dated-ness of things. Right? So going, you know, walking around and getting it uncluttered is a big one. And then walking around and looking at what’s worn out and needs to be fixed or replaced. And, you know, that also pulls negative energy when you have stuff around you that’s not working and things of that sort. So you want to make sure that. Things are up to par for who you want to represent. So those two things should be done on a really regular basis, honestly. But if you and if you think about spring cleaning, how that makes you feel, if you get it all spruced up. So the third thing as we’ve talked about, would be things that were dated. And dating is, like we said, every seven years. Carolyn Boldt (00:24:42) – So a fresh coat of paint could make a huge difference. A fresh color on the walls, some new artwork and accessories, some things that don’t have to cost a lot of money, but can actually just give you a lift to give you a freshening up. It can make a huge difference in an office. And then I already mentioned lighting, so. You know, can you vary the lighting and do you have just. A lot of therapists, though, are already using lighting. They understand that a lower light level calms people down. So that may not be as much of an issue with them, but some may not think about it. Joe Sanok (00:25:22) – Mhm. Yeah. That whole indirect lighting and kind of my daughters are really into kind of hookah design and they are like, oh like let’s turn the lights. So they’re very huge at house, at our house. And so that idea of having indirect lighting, painting, you know, looking at basic updates are such simple things. What are some things that you would recommend warrant having a professional help with? And you know, to that really, you know, this isn’t you’re not an interior designer, you’re a therapist. Like this is where you really should hire someone. When does it make sense to hire an interior designer or someone with your level of expertise to really help create a space? Carolyn Boldt (00:26:04) – Well from the very basic. So our my profession, interior design, interior architecture has a lot of variations to it. So there’s some some parts of our profession that would be more decorator type, meaning that they’re not focused on moving walls. They’re just focused on making things look good in your environment. So if you don’t feel like you can do that. It would be like you trying to do your own taxes when you don’t really like numbers. Do you know what I’m saying? It’s. It’s using the ability of someone else to help guide you will save you time, energy and money. So in that very simplistic of just giving you a facelift there, the the decorators, the people that do staging, you know what I’m talking about people that do staging, will they go into homes and they clean up the house so the house sells faster. Carolyn Boldt (00:26:55) – It’s the same theory of what we’re talking about here. So hiring someone to help get that done, if you don’t feel capable of doing it, definitely if you’re thinking about moving walls around because that’s where you need to get into architecture, that’s where you need to get into does it meet codes and some things that are just typically beyond what most do? And just my other little side note, just know if you want if you think about moving stuff around. You don’t go first to a contractor. Contractor is not a designer. Most contractors are not a designer. There’s a few here and there that do just what we call design, build. And they’ll do both. But I love it when people come to us and they say, Yeah, I walked around with my car, my contractor, and they they thought I should do all these ideas. And I go, Really? Are they a designer? No, no, no. They’re just a contractor. So does contractors. Are not sources for design their sources to help you get ideas that you already have presented built if you follow what I’m saying. Joe Sanok (00:28:03) – Yeah. Yeah. So such good advice. Carolyn. The last question I always ask is if every private practitioner in the world were listening right now, what would you want them to know? Carolyn Boldt (00:28:15) – I want them to know that their environment is very important to their success, and they can be. They just doesn’t need to be expensive. It just needs to be intentional. Joe Sanok (00:28:28) – So good. And if people want to connect with you, if they want to. I was on your website. If they just want to check out some really amazing design and get inspired. What’s your website and how can they learn more from you and connect with you? Carolyn Boldt (00:28:40) – So everything you’d ever want to know and more is on our website. It started out as a blog and it just keeps growing. Think somebody told me there’s like 250 pages on it. So there’s lots of resources, lots of things on it. It’s cross fields design. And then we have a special landing page for your listeners that they can download the free resources that we’ve been just have all in one one big whack. Carolyn Boldt (00:29:06) – So that’s cross fields design, forward slash practice. And if anyone’s and if anyone’s interested in finding out more about our services, we do a free. It’s about a 45 minute to 1 hour consultation where we can actually our salesperson is a designer and she’ll actually dig in and figure out what you might need. And then if we can help you, then she can tell you what we can do. And then for those that are starting a business from scratch, we have some sources there to planning your office and. All kinds of sauces, free floor plans, all kinds of things. Joe Sanok (00:29:44) – So awesome. So, so awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the Practice of the Practice podcast today. Carolyn Boldt (00:29:50) – Thank you, Joe. I appreciate it too. Joe Sanok (00:29:59) – Kind of makes me want to get a brick and mortar office again. You know, to, you know, create a really amazing space. You know, this is the kind of content marketing that I just love when you’re able to just really focus in on creating content, making things like plans. Joe Sanok (00:30:16) – You know, the Carolyn was talking about and saying, you know, head on over to my website. I have all these resources and then the people that want to work with her will and those that just want to learn from her and stay on her radar will as well. And so make sure you check out that website. We also have a few announcements coming up. So in July and August, our membership community is next level practice and group practice. Boston, We are opening two of the events that we do every month of the 8 to 10 that we do for our members to you, the community to test out, to try out totally for free. And so each month we host our what’s working and are what’s working always happens in kind of the middle of the month. So our what’s working is going to be on July 12th at 1:00 Eastern. And then we’re going to have our Ask the Expert. So our what’s working is where we break into small groups and we do laser coaching. We really dig into what’s working in private practice. Joe Sanok (00:31:08) – And then July 19th, we actually have the head of Harvard Psychiatry, Dr. Christopher Palmer, who was on the show. He’s going to be an expert coming in to talk about the keto diet and how that interacts with mental health. And that’s going to be on July 19th. And then if you also want access in August and we have our what’s working is going to be happening on August 9th at 1:00 Eastern. And then we’re having our expert on August 16th at 1:00 and then bringing in Nancy, who was my writing coach, helped me get that book published with Harpercollins. She’s amazing. She’s going to be talking about writing a book and getting a book deal. So usually this is only available to our members in our communities. But for July and August were opened this up so you can get a taste of it so that when our cohorts open in September, you can be like, Oh my gosh, I love this. Or maybe, you know, that’s not really a fit for you. So if you want to sign up for any of those, just drop me an email at joe at practice of the practice.com and then we will send you all the details on how to register for those. We aren’t broadly broadcasting it, but we are just mentioning it here as well. Also, save your calendars also for that August 16th, that’s when doors open for my consulting deal. Normally consulting with me starts at $1,500 a month, but we’re doing a deal for just a handful of people for 8.95 a month starting that morning of August 16th at 9 a.m.. And so if you want to be on that waitlist, if you want to make sure you jump in there, go to practice the practice of.com/consulting deal and then you can get all the alerts when that opens up. So all sorts of fun things going on If your caseloads a little bit slower this summer and you want to work on the practice all sorts of things for you to work on. And also we could not do this show without our amazing sponsors. Therapy Notes is our sponsor today. Therapy notes is the premier electronic health records out there. Joe Sanok (00:32:57) – They help you stay organized. They help you with your progress notes. They’ll also help you transition from whatever you’re at as well. They really help you keep your billing in order for your bookkeeper. You can try them totally free for a couple of months over at therapy notes. Com And just use promo code Joe at checkout to waive those initial fees. Thank you so much for letting me into your ears and into your brain. Have a great day. I’ll talk to you soon. Special thanks to the band Silences sexy for that intro music. And this podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regard to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the producers, the publishers or guests are rendering legal accounting, clinical or other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.